"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." (Proverbs 27:17)
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JSM17
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 273
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
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 Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: TWO CUPS? |
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In the gospel account of Luke, when Jesus institutes the Lord's Supper, you have reference to two cups, why is this?
Some say that the first cup refers to the last cup of the tradition of Passover, some say that Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper with two cups. What says you?
Why do the other gospels only refer to one cup? These thought come from a study that I am doing right now and wanted to see what you all thought about it. It seems to me it is hard to get a straight idea about the traditions of the supposed four cups used in Passover tradition during Jesus' time. If we have no biblical proof of how many cups were to be used in that observance, then do we even know that Jesus followed them. I am not saying that Jesus did not observe Passover, because the context clearly reveals that He did, what I am say is, what signifigance does the two cups have in Lukes account? Either there was only one cup, that is the two cups that are spoken of are really the same cup, as you have in the other accounts "one cup", or in the of tradition of Passover there being four cups and the last one is the first cup in the context of lukes account.
I have my own thoughts about this already, but I will wait to see what you all think.
Thanks and God bless
_________________
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power... |
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m273p15c
Joined: 28 Sep 1999
Posts: 496
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 10:21 pm Post subject: a few belated comments |
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Here's the text in question:
| Luke, the inspired historian, wrote: | 14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him.
15 Then He said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
16 "for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
17 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves;
18 "for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22:14-20) |
A few comments:- Why assume there are two cups? I label this as an assumption, because the text does not explicitly say how many cups were involved. Therefore, we must assume some number. Why two? Yes, the texts mentions that Jesus "took the cup" and later, Jesus again "took the cup". However, the text does not state that He took "a cup", and later, He took "another cup". By use of the same definitive article, "the", it appears more likely that Jesus took the same cup twice - offering different comments on the two different occasions, yet over the same "the cup", whatever "the cup" was...
- Who said any cup was even mentioned? I'll stand by a statement made in a previous thread regarding the number of cups to be used in the modern observance of the Lord's supper:
| m273p15c wrote: | | ... "cup" is used as a figure of speech, metonymy; consequently, the physical container is not even truly mentioned ... |
Please note that the disciples are told to "Take this and divide it among yourselves". Clearly, "the cup" is the antecedent for "this" and "it" in the preceding statement. Was this "cup" to be understood figuratively, referring to the contents, or was it to be taken literally, referring to the physical container? Recall, Jesus instructed them to take it and divide it. If we are to assume a literal interpretation of "cup", then the apostles, and us by application, must break the cup in pieces and distribute its pieces among each other! On the other hand, if "cup" is interpreted figuratively, understood as representing the contents of the cup by use of metonymy, then we would more naturally understand that the contents were to be divided and consumed - not the container itself!
Employing consistency here in tracking the antecedents of the pronouns mandates that the "cup" be "taken" and "divided". Since this can only be done to the contents, we must assume a figurative interpretation of the "cup", which leads me back to this conclusion: The physical container is not even specifically mentioned. It's contents are mentioned, but whenever you see "cup" in the context of Luke 22:14-20, we should interpret it as "the cup's contents", which is the "fruit of the vine" in this context.
What do the Jewish traditions have to do with this topic? I know that thorough, detailed discussions on this topic always bring up the traditions, but where are those traditions recorded in the Bible? By virtue of the very fact that God deliberately left it out, I assume that it is not important for me to know, neither are the Passover meant to serve as any kind of pattern. I believe the Bible contains the complete pattern (II Timothy 3:16-17; Jude 1:3; II Peter 1:2-3). This may be simplistic and somewhat naive, but I prefer to stick to the question, "What does the Scripture say?" Remember, these events occurred "after the supper" and are therefore not connected with the supper.I hope these comments help and are not too late.
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May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12) |
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