[luke1]

The point that I was trying to get across by using the example of the thief (malefactor) on the cross, is that belief in Jesus, God incarnate, was the only necessity for his salvation. I am sure that he had many works of disobedience, however no works of obedience that I was able to find. In fact it is a work of disobedience from the part of Adam, as I see it, that began this great work of God. Moses, Jonah, and others, disobeyed works of God. However, God moved Moses to be his respresentative, because God had not made a mistake in choosing him. God moved Jonah, after a little trip into the belly of a great fish, because God had not made a mistake in choosing him.

Work(s) of obedience cannot stand by itself when it comes to salvation. Belief on the other hand, can and does stand alone, when it comes to salvation.

Works of: obedience............................ ? = ?
Works of: disobedience......................... ? = ?

Belief in Jesus...................................... 1 = salvation.

Did Jesus not know what He was saying on the cross, when He told the thief (malefactor) who elected to believe Him (in Him) " Verily, I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

If this is not unconditional salvation based only on belief (faith), would someone out there please enlighten me.
This is an example of salvation from God Himself.

[luke1]

I would only like to add for reference: Colossians 2:12-14
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross";

Then John 19:31-33
"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath
day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be
taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:"

Unless, I am reading this wrong, the other two who were cruxified to the cross were still alive, which necessitated the breaking of their legs, to speed up their death. Jesus legs were not broken because he was dead already.

[luke1]

There is another addition I would like to make after reading an article entitled "Why the Old Covenant Failed" by Joe Crews. Scripture, of course will be from the Bible.

Please take into consideration that I am referring to the Old Covenant (testament), and not the Ten Commandments.

The Book of Hebrews.......There God is reported as "finding fault with them" Hebrew 8:8, Then verse 9 "Because they continued not in my covenant and I regarded them not, saith the Lord". The fault is squarely on the human side of the mutual pact. Verse 7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
How were the new Covenant promises better? Because God made them, and they guaranteed success through his strength alone. Verse 10: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people": Verses 12 & 13 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."
Under the Old Covenant, sins were only covered for a period of time.
How was the New Covenant ratified? In the same manner that the old was ratified- by the shedding of blood.
However, instead of an ox having to shed its blood, it would be the Lamb of God, Christ Jesus, who would shed His blood, being nailed to the cross, once and for all time, the perfect sacrifice that would wash away the sins of the world.



Before His agonizing death, Jesus met with His disciples in the upper room. Holding up the cup in His hands, He said "This is my blood of the new testament , which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Matthew 26:28

Galatians 3:15 "Brethen, I speak after the manner of man; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed,
no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto." The conditions were all sealed and ratified by the shedding of blood.


Before Jesus uttered His last 7 sayings on the cross, His hands and feet had already been pierced with nails, and so was already shedding His blood.

[Marc]

Hi,

Would you agree that the Lord Jesus also shed His precious blood when Pilate had Him scourged and when the soldiers mockingly put a crown of "thorns" on His head? Both of which took place before the cross (John 19:1, 2)

Thanks
- Marc

[luke1]

Yes, I would have to agree with that. Thank you for your imput.

[m273p15c]

Please allow me to deal with these arguments in reverse chronological order:

[luke1]

Hebrews 9:16 (KJV) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:17 (KJV) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Galatians 3:15 (KJV) Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. "yet if it be confirmed"


In Christ Jesus God bless

[m273p15c]

It seems you were previously arguing that the New Covenant began as soon as Jesus bled:

[luke1]

I apologize that I have been the source of your total confusion. I know it can not be the fault of the sciptures quoted.

You wrote that my most recent quotes from scripture on Oct 3, 2006 are the source of your confusion, yet I listed Galations 3:15 to demonstrate the same view on August 28, 2006, when I first quoted Galatians 3:15.
When a man or a woman makes a last will and testament, it is confirmed (as is) at that persons death. No changes after death can be made. This is what Galatians 3:15 is saying. Changes can be made while the person still lives, however, at death, it is confirmed.

I placed Galatians 3:15 in conjunction with, and right after Matthew 26:28 (KJV) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Concerning my response to Marc, should I have rather said, no Marc ,I do not agree with you. Jesus was not yet shedding His precious blood when he was scouraged, nor when a crown of thorns was placed on His head. Or should I have completely ignored him and his imput.

In Christ Jesus God bless

[m273p15c]

I am sorry, but I still do not understand what you believe regarding the ending and beginning of the covenants. Please allow me to rephrase my question:

In reference to authority, do you believe that the Old Covenant had a relatively specific end point? If so, what? Do you believe that the New Covenant had a relatively specific beginning point, again in regards to authority? If so, what?

Thanks! Sorry for my slowness.

[luke1]

John 19:30 (KJV) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.



In Christ Jesus God bless

[JSM17]

No one is saved by faith alone!

[luke1]

I'm all ears. Then you explain how it is that the thief shall be saved.

[JSM17]

Well for starters we see from the context that these two thieves were bad mouthing Christ, but for what ever reason one of them had a change of mind and asked Jesus to remember him. This really shows a change of mind and heart towards Jesus by this thief, one would call this repentance. Some how this man on this cross realized something signifigant about Jesus, it could have been many things that moved him to believe and repent, some may even go as far to say that in a way when this man called upon Jesus to remember him this was a type of confessing that Jesus is the Christ.

Regardless of these points, we must always remember that the thief died before the death burial and resurection, so really he is not an example of our obedience to God today. Jesus knew more about this man then any of us, only God knows true repentance and confession, true faith which moves us to obey God.

So I would conclude that indeed the thief on the cross was not saved by faith alone, because if he had faith but was unwilling to change his mind and thoughts and was not sorry for the way that he verbally attacked Christ then his faith would have been dead.

[luke1]

John 3:15 (KJV) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 (KJV) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 6:40 (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:25 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

These are just a few, since I don't have any more time at the moment.

Could you substitute the word "repent" in all the instances where "believe, or believeth" is used and have the same result?

Jesus was dead already, therefore did not necesitate the breaking of his legs. But breaking the legs of the malfactors was necessitated because they were still alive.

Got to go, In Christ Jesus God bless

[JSM17]

If belief incompasses repentance, then it also includes confession and baptism, because they all save!!!!!!!!!!!!

2 Cor 7:10-11
10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
NASU


Rom 10:10-11
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. NASU


Mark 16:15-16
15 And He said to them, " Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
NASU

[luke1]

Please note the question, that is being asked, there can be no doubt as to what the jailer is asking?
16:30 (KJV) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Please note the answer, and please note the dot thats follows the answer, usually it means conclusion of sentence.

Acts 16:31 (KJV) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

[JSM17]

So I guess you must of missed the scriptures that I posted on my last post, do those scriptures have anything to do with SALVATION? Please read them again, and please notice the words SALVATION and SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[luke1]

2 Corinthians 7:10 (KJV) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Paul is talking to christians, who are already saved. For the christian, God sometimes uses sorrow in our lifes so that we turn away from sin and seek eternal life. But the sorrow of a person who is not a christian is not the sorrow of true repentance and does not prevent eternal death. A disbeliever does not have this work of God reproving him. Thus "but the sorrow of the world worketh death. You must be a believer, to be a christian. The disbeliever can repent over and over again, and it will not save, because it is a work of man, not of God.

Romans 10:10 (KJV) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Basically, what this is saying is that, .."if you tell others with your own mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord, and BELIEVE in your own heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Believing is what granted us salvation, and the same believing will grant salvation to others.

Mark 16:15 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

These verses really fortifies belief, for if there is no belief, baptism is not going to save you.

Acts 16:30-31 (KJV) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

These verses incorporate within its context all that is needed to be saved.

[sledford]

I would like to take an excerpt from luke1's reasoning:

[JSM17]

Luke1 said

[luke1]

Acts 2:21

Peter also said in Acts 2:21 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:38 is a continuation of things been said to the same crowd)

Repent, (change of mind) return to your first impression that Christ Jesus is the promised Messiah.

I do not have much time, as my work week begins today, but I will get back to you, and others.

[luke1]

These men that Peter is talking to are devout Jews, dwelling in Jerusalem but come from many nations.

Acts 2:21Acts 2:21 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:22 (KJV) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
"A MAN APPROVED OF GOD AMONG YOU BY MIRACLES AND WONDERS AND SIGNS' , but then they changed their minds concerning his messiahship.

Acts 2:23 (KJV) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
"YE HAVE TAKEN, AND BY WICKED HANDS HAVE CRUCIFIED AND SLAIN:"

Acts 2:32 (KJV) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:36 (KJV) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
"WHOM YE HAVE CRUCIFIED, BOTH LORD AND CHRIST (MESSIAH)

"a man approved by God among you by miracles and wonders and signs. " "ye have taken, and by wicked hands have cruxified and slain." They choose Barabus, over Jesus to be released. "whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ".

Are these people described as strangers, who do not know what has been going on? How many people would it have taken to roll back the stone that covered the entrance to the tomb? Would not the Romans guards, who were under the penalty of death, if they fell asleep during their watch, have notice some activity. Were these same people that Peter is talking to at this time not aware of the things that were happening?

After all this, they are still wondering if Jesus is the Messiah. Return, accept Jesus as the True Messiah.

Acts 2:37 (KJV) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

WARNING:
This is only an example,
When one lives in a city and happens upon one preaching at a street corner, usually a bus stop. Most people usually ignore him. But, inside they are probably thinking either, I wish this man would shut up, or that my bus would get here. Some will walk away, and go to another bus stop further up. And those who are standing there, can they repent to something that is new to them. And then something he says strikes you to the heart, and you think to yourself, Oh I have done that, and I really feel bad about it. Then your bus gets there and you get into and it drives away, without ever really knowing that the message was to believe in the one who could and most certainly save you?
Instead, you drove feeling, that at least you had repented of that which struck you to your heart.

[JSM17]

Repentance Essential
Peter emphatically charged the Jews, assembled on Pentecost, with having murdered the Son of God by the hands of lawless men. Because of their implication in this vile crime, the apostle commanded them to repent of their sins (2:38 – the verb is in the imperative mood). Repentance, of course, involves a genuine change of attitude (a contrite sorrow for having done wrong), which results in a reformation of life.

When one examines Acts 10, he will not find any reference wherein the apostle commanded Cornelius to repent of his sins. Did this Roman soldier need to repent? Of course he did. He was a sinner (as evidenced by the fact that he needed salvation – see 11:14), and sinners must repent. May one reasonably conclude, then, that Cornelius repented – even though such is not particularly mentioned? Yes.

First, if the Jews were under constraint to repent (2:3, and God “made no distinction” between them and the Gentiles, then the Gentiles were equally compelled to repent.

Second, later on, in his interview with the brethren in Jerusalem, Peter rehearsed the events that had occurred at Caesarea. The Jewish saints were convinced by his testimony and exclaimed: “Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life” (11:1.

The meaning of that expression is: God has granted to the Gentiles the privilege of repenting so that they also might enjoy eternal life. And so, by simple logic – by harmonizing the records – the whole picture becomes clear.

[luke1]

The whole context of these verses are to identify Jesus, as being the promised Messiah.

But, I'll need to get back to this, later.

[JSM17]

Yes but are all accounts of repentance referring to just an acknowledgment of who Jesus is? Repentance a change of mind of heart and action, turning from yourself, turning towards God.


Does one have to repent in order to be saved, is repentance unto salvation? Yes or No?

Before one can be saved does one have to change his mind and thoughts towards God, and himself?

[luke1]

Repent in Acts 2 :38 is referring to the messiahship of Jesus
Acts 2:5 (KJV) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
This clearly identifies that the ones gathered here are devout Jews. The message here is that they have not yet accepted Jesus as the promised Messiah. Not yet having accepted this fact, they are still bound to the old testament (covenant). Under the old testament (covenant), provision has been made to them for sin with the blood of sacrificially clean animals. Why would Peter be asking them to bring up their sins, if they have provision for sin already.

In reference to the thief, are you saying that the malefactor was repenting because he had bad mouthed Jesus. Did the thief ask Jesus to remember him in his kingdom, because he repented that he had bad mouthed him, or because he knew that Jesus was indeed who he said he was, Messiah.

[JSM17]

The law of Christ consists strictly of information that is intended to be in effect after the death of Christ. It includes some of the things that Jesus and His disciples taught while He was still on Earth. But as regards the specifics of salvation, one must go to Acts 2 and the rest of the New Testament (especially the book of Acts) in order to determine what one must do today to be saved. Beginning in Acts 2, the new covenant of Christ took effect, and every single individual who responded correctly to the preaching of the gospel was baptized in water in order to be forgiven of sin by the blood of Christ. Every detail of an individual’s conversion is not always mentioned, but a perusal of the book of Acts demonstrates decisively that water immersion was a prerequisite to forgiveness, along with faith, repentance, and confession of the deity of Christ.

The fact is, while Jesus was on earth he had the authority to dispense blessings directly based upon the circumstances at hand. At the time of his death, however, his authority was made resident in his testamentary “will” (Hebrews 9:15-17). And the terms of that will specify baptism as a condition of pardon (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21, etc.).
No one has the legal right to eliminate that condition by appealing to something the Lord did while he was implementing his earthly ministry. The heavenly regime takes precedence over the former.

And for clarification purposes, the thief apparently had a change of mind and additude towards Christ, did he repent because he bad mouthed Christ? He had a change of mind and heart because of what he realized about Christ, the bad mouthing was only a small part of the immediate context.

It is interesting though all the things that this thief identifies as he is talking from the cross:

Exactly when he learned these facts is not specified. But there are two possibilities. Either he learned about Christ, and became convinced of his royalty, during that six-hour episode, or, else he knew about the Savior from earlier circumstances.
It is not impossible that he had been exposed significantly to information about Jesus earlier in his life, had been impressed by it, and, later, had regressed into a life of crime. Note some things about the man’s beliefs.



He acknowledged the existence of God.
He believed in a standard of right and wrong, he confessed that he and his companion had transgressed divine law, and he conceded they were being punished “justly.”
He asserted the innocence of Christ. The Teacher had done “nothing amiss.” And remember, the Lord was being crucified for his affirmation of being the “Son of the Blessed One” (Mark 14:61,62). The robber’s statement, therefore, is basically an acknowledgement of the truth of Jesus’ claim.
The penitent thief believed that Christ was a “king,” and that this act of murder would not terminate the Savior’s life; rather, the Lord would “come in [his] kingdom.”
He was confident that Jesus would be able to bless him in that regime. At the very least, these expressions indicate that the thief believed it was possible to have association with the Lord after both of them were dead.

Either Christ was preaching one awesome sermon while on the Cross that we do not have recorded or this thief had foreknowledge of the messiah.

Regardless of all these attempts to clarify the situation of the "Thief" to a bais faith alone audience, Christ still established His church and put conditions on the entrance to it.(The book of Acts)

Why argue the thief for salvation, he lived in the O.T. and died in the O.T.

The greater point of arguement would be how does the thief apply to you or I in or obedience to Christ, he doesn't, we do not live in the O.T.

[luke1]

Why do you have to resort to so many assumptions about the thief?

John 11:25 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

[JSM17]

Do you not assume that the thief on the cross was saved by faith alone?

I already showed you that the man had a change of mind and heart about the Lord, which is repentance, but this still does not negate the fact that the thief on the cross died under the O.T.

How this applies to you or I remains to be seen.

[luke1]

The two SCRIPTURES I referenced are not assumptions but truths. Your response, however, are assumptions. You try to throw the thief as being saved under the old testament period, than assume that he had to have been baptised by John the Baptist, assumed that he repented, then he unrepented of his repentance , was caught in his criminal act, was sentenced to death by crucification, then re-repented, and it was such a impressive act of contrition that God noticed it, albeit that Jesus was already shedding his blood of the new covenant which was for the remission of all sin.

I will take scripture for what it says.

[JSM17]

[luke1]

The fact of the matter concerning the thief is that he believed, and thus he was saved.

[JSM17]

Jesus said concerning all men that they need to believe and that they are baptized and they shall be saved! Don't you believe what your Lord said concerning the great commission?

Why focus on the thief when you have Jesus telling you exactly what to do.

[luke1]

The thief, which is the theme of this thread, was saved by faith only. He believed Jesus the Saviour of the world.

[sledford]

[sledford]

I forgot to mention as well that there is no information given if this thief was ever baptized according to John's baptism of repentance which was commanded while under the last few years of the Old Law. We know only what is said by and to this thief while on the cross and therefore, it's a HUGE leap to reach any other, outside context, conclusions and there is certainly no basis to extrapolate from the thief to us today.

[luke1]

The thief was saved by believing that Jesus was Messiah, Saviour of the World.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 (KJV) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them" It is not a work of man, but the work of God. The thief was saved because he believed that Jesus was the Saviour of the world.

Now with this next question, my intnetion is not to start a new thread, since I do not have enough time to devote to it. However, why did Jesus use the word "paradise" instead of saying "Abrahams' bosom" which would have been more familiar to a Jew?