"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." (Proverbs 27:17)
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JSM17
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 273
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
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 Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:23 am Post subject: BAPTISM:"AN OUTWARD SIGN OF AN INWARD GRACE?" |
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Well here it is a chance to shoot holes into the biblical fact that baptism puts one into Christ, into His death burial and resurrection. Romans 6:3, 4
A chance to prove that baptism is only a sign of ones salvation, not the procurement of it in the steps of obedience to Christ.
Prove that baptism is only a sign, that it has no signifigance to salvation.
Prove that it is not required to make disciples.
Prove that it does not save.
Prove that it is not for the forgiveness of sins.
I would hope that we can stay focused at least on this post topic which is to prove that baptism is an outward sign of an inward grace or to disprove the proposition. |
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sledford
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 103
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: Re: BAPTISM:"AN OUTWARD SIGN OF AN INWARD GRACE?" |
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It's unclear to me what position you are advocating. So, if you could please restate your position in terms of Affirmative or Negative it would help me out tremendously.
| JSM17 wrote: | | Well here it is a chance to shoot holes into the biblical fact that baptism puts one into Christ, into His death burial and resurrection. Romans 6:3, 4 |
I need to introduce my comments here first to avoid any misunderstanding of my beliefs or point of view. Are you stating that Romans 6 is speaking of a literal "putting into" his death, burial, and resurrection? Please notice the language that Paul uses in Romans 6:4,5 is of a metaphorical structure, a simile (I bolded the text to this point).
| Romans 6:4-5 wrote: | 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: |
Now, this does not negate the conclusion or teaching that Paul makes in this that baptism is most definitely required for salvation as it is what places one in Christ and is a primary "proof" in his answer. He's using a metaphorical parallel of Jesus death, burial, and resurrection, with baptism being a similar process to explain how we're no longer to be willfully sinning as an answer to the rhetorical question he started with in Romans 6:1
| Romans 6:1 wrote: | | Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? |
But this context is not a literal process in baptism, the language doesn't support that.
Likewise, just because it is metaphorical language does not make it an "outward sign of an inward grace". Quite the contrary but many people will latch onto the metaphorical aspects in an attempt to make it less than it is: baptism saves.
| JSM17 wrote: | A chance to prove that baptism is only a sign of ones salvation, not the procurement of it in the steps of obedience to Christ.
Prove that baptism is only a sign, that it has no signifigance to salvation.
Prove that it is not required to make disciples.
Prove that it does not save.
Prove that it is not for the forgiveness of sins.
I would hope that we can stay focused at least on this post topic which is to prove that baptism is an outward sign of an inward grace or to disprove the proposition. |
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JSM17
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 273
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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I think it is wonderful that sometimes we can introduce a topic and we do not have to advocate were we stand, at least not yet. The purpose of this post comes from the "Thief on the cross" post. I think it is good for people to be able to articulate their point and their reason for why they say certain things, I am sure since we have been in conversations before that you (sledford) know where I stand on this issue. I am not just calling for people to explain Romans 6, but to prove this idea(An outward sign of an inward grace) through New Testament scripture.
I hope that those who believe this idea will come forward and present the facts that prove what they proclaim, specifically the gentlemen from the "Thief on the cross" post who advocated the thought in his post. I am just trying to move that thought out of that post into this one.
I do not hold to that THEORY, I have been added to Christ's church and this happen only after I was buried with Christ in baptism. |
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