"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." (Proverbs 27:17)
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 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: Falling from Grace |
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I just read your article on Falling from Grace.
How will we know when we become "unsaved"? Once we are saved, we will continue to still sin, and we might not remember or know of every sin we commit, to be able to ask for forgiveness of every specific sin.
How exactly can a person become saved? Is it a specific prayer that someone has to pray out loud? Is it an exact phrase that we have to repeat, as well as meaning it in our hearts while we pray it? How will someone know that they are saved? Is it some kind of feeling that they get, when they become saved? Will they be completely free from the bondages of sin, and never sin anymore?
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m273p15c
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the good questions! I have inserted some answers below. Please let me know what you think. 
| email wrote: | | How will we know when we become "unsaved"? |
Part of the answer to this question ultimately lies in God's hands. God does not personally come to us and tell us, "Hey, you are now 'unsaved'". And, we have no way to check our status with Him on a minute by minute basis. Instead, He uses means to indirectly warn us of our error:- Other Christians - Part of the reason for assembling with other saints is to "exhort one another" ... "to stir up love and good works" (Hebrews 10:24-25). It is an obligation and blessing for each Christian to help other Christians avoid error and repent from sin:
| James wrote: | | Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. (James 5:19-20) |
| Paul wrote: | | Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. (Galatians 6:1) |
| Jude wrote: | | And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. (Jude 1:23-24) |
The Church - The church is made of people, so this overlaps with mechanism #1; however, Christ specifically organized the church and equipped it with offices (apostles, elders, prophets) to help it mature and avoid error (Ephesians 4:11-16). People in these offices, specifically elders for today, carry an additional burden of opportunity to help those who have been overcome by sin.
The Scriptures - Christians are to be diligent students of the Bible (II Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17), because it contains God's will for us, which we can understand if will but earnestly read (Ephesians 3:3-5). God's Scriptures are the ultimate revealer of our error (Hebrews 4:12). It serves as a mirror, showing us things that must be corrected (James 1:18, 22-25). In fact, other Christians and officers of the church help us by showing Scriptures to us (I Peter 4:11). The wisdom they employ should be what is given by God in the Bible - not their own wisdom (I Corinthians 2:1-5).
Providential Punishment - One must be very careful here, but I will mention it for completeness. In fact, this point can be a slippery slope, leading to subjective interpretation of personal events. Regardless of the danger, the Bible is clear that God sometimes uses events to chasten us, and help us wake up!
| David wrote: | | Before I was afflicted I went astray, But now I keep Your word. ... It is good for me that I have been afflicted, That I may learn Your statutes. (Psalm 119:67, 71) |
That being said, one cannot interpret every bad event as a sign of God's disapproval or rejection. For example, the book of Job is the recording of a godly man who was tempted and tortured mercilessly by the Devil, and yet the entire book records the argument between Job's friends as to whether or not Job had sinned and merited this punishment from God. You see, both parties assumed God brought this punishment on Job, but it was really the Devil's fault. Therefore, we cannot really determine if difficulties are a message from God, because it could be a message from the Devil! (For example, the Devil's message could be, "You are a recognized servant of God; therefore, I will try to cause you to sin and be destroyed!"). Wise Solomon recognized that difficulty in interpreting life's events as follows:
| Solomon wrote: | | When I applied my heart to know wisdom and to see the business that is done on earth, even though one sees no sleep day or night, then I saw all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun. For though a man labors to discover it, yet he will not find it; moreover, though a wise man attempts to know it, he will not be able to find it. For I considered all this in my heart, so that I could declare it all: that the righteous and the wise and their works are in the hand of God. People know neither love nor hatred by anything they see before them. All things come alike to all: One event happens to the righteous and the wicked; To the good, the clean, and the unclean; To him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As is the good, so is the sinner; He who takes an oath as he who fears an oath. (Ecclesiastes 8:16-9:2) |
Death and difficulties befall all men, so it is impossible to determine God's disposition toward us, without Him revealing it. I am sure you are wondering, "So, what's the point?!" Well, Solomon said we could not know God's disposition, but we could use such occasions as a "wake up call" - an occasion to pause, consider, and self-examine (which is always admonished as a good practice in the New Testament, see II Corinthians 13:5). We may turn up nothing, as did Job. However, we should at least pause and consider carefully, so that we might benefit as did David in Psalm 119:67, 71, if possible. Solomon offers his advice on the matter here:
| Solomon wrote: | | In the day of prosperity be joyful, But in the day of adversity consider: Surely God has appointed the one as well as the other, So that man can find out nothing that will come after him. (Ecclesiastes 7:14) |
Finally, please recall that God is not a cruel or capricious God, looking to "unsave" everyone possible. He wants all to be saved!
| Peter wrote: | | [i]The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9) |
Lastly, keep in mind that these mechanisms are not meant to warn us of being "unsaved". They are meant to warn us of sin! Any sin can lead to eternal death, if we stubbornly refuse to repent. More below...
Please read more about God's desire to forgive and save us here:
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/forgives.html
Keep in mind, God never told someone directly how to be saved, even by angel. He always used a human messenger (II Corinthians 4:5-7; Acts 22:6-16; 10:1-6, 34-38; 8:26-40). The Holy Spirit just ensured that the right people were in the right place at the right time.  Why? Because He wants all to be saved!
| email wrote: | | Once we are saved, we will continue to still sin, and we might not remember or know of every sin we commit, to be able to ask for forgiveness of every specific sin. |
Yes, that's very true. However, God gives us a means to receive forgiveness, after we have first been saved:
| John wrote: | If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (I John 1:9)
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (I John 2:1-2) |
Even after we are converted, we can continue to access the redeeming power of Jesus' sacrifice by simply praying to God, confessing our sins, which implies we are seeking forgiveness.
What if you cannot remember a sin? What if you do not know you have sinned? Keeping in mind that we are dealing with a loving and merciful God, it should not surprise us to learn that He will help us recall our sin or learn of our unknown error:
| Paul wrote: | | Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. (Philippians 3:15) |
Somehow, God will reveal our forgotten or unknown errors to us, providing us an opportunity to repent. Someone may ask, "What if He does not?" Well, then that is God's concern. I can only offer what He has promised. We have to trust God to keep His promises, since that is the very test of faith. ... In the meantime, I personally pray for forgiveness of all my sins, but I also repent of specific sins as I realize them. ... Keep in mind, we are discussing forgiveness after conversion. Repenting of sins prior to conversion is discussed next...
How will God do this? Well, He certainly can use all the means provided in the first question. Beyond that, I trust Him to work it out.
| email wrote: | | How exactly can a person become saved? |
An introduction to this crucial, crucial topic is provided in this article:
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/salvation.html
Please read it, because many false doctrines are taught regarding the means of salvation.
| John wrote: | | Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (I John 4:1) |
| Paul wrote: | | Test all things; hold fast what is good. (I Thessalonians 5:21) |
I can think of no greater danger than to swallow false doctrine on the basis for salvation!
In summary, one must:- Hear the gospel, which is essentially that Jesus came from heaven, lived a perfect life, demonstrated God's very character, died on the cross, was resurrected, ascended, and now commands all men to be saved by His name (Romans 10:17; I Timothy 3:16).
- Believe the gospel, that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, based on the evidence recorded in Scripture (John 20:30-31; John 3:16).
- Repent of your sins, which means you are sorry and stop doing them (Acts 2:37-38; Luke 13:3, 5).
- Confess Jesus as your Lord and the Son of God (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 10:32-33).
- Be baptized in water, by the name of Jesus, for the remission of your sins (Acts 2:37-38; 10:47-48; Mark 16:15-16; Matthew 28:19-20).
Many may dispute this very simply plan, which plan is approved by the number of conversions recorded in the book of Acts. However, human theology not withstanding, God's Scriptures are plain, unless one brings a prejudice to the Scripture.
After this, each one beings a new life, devoted to Christ (Romans 6:1-4). We try to think and act as He would have us act (Colossians 3:1-10; Romans 12:1-2). However, this is a growth process that takes time (I John 3:1-3). The final result is not produced overnight, although we are immediately accounted in God's kingdom once we are saved, which is culminated in baptism (Acts 2:37-41, 47; Colossians 1:9-14; Galatians 3:26-27). Perfection is guaranteed in heaven, although we may not see it here (Jude 1:4; Hebrews 12:22-23; I Thessalonians 5:23-24).
| email wrote: | | Is it a specific prayer that someone has to pray out loud? Is it an exact phrase that we have to repeat, as well as meaning it in our hearts while we pray it? |
No specific prayer. Men have invented a prayer and said that praying it sincerely brings about salvation; however, neither that prayer nor promise is recorded anywhere in Scripture. The composite pattern, instruction, and doctrine given in Scripture includes the 5 elements listed above.
| email wrote: | | How will someone know that they are saved? Is it some kind of feeling that they get, when they become saved? |
No, there is no feeling, experience, or event that testifies to your salvation. However, like the Ethiopian who heard Stephen's preaching on Jesus, and who then believed, repented, confessed, and was baptized, you too can go on your way rejoicing that you have been saved (Acts 8:30-39) So, yes, strong, heartfelt, and thankful emotions may overwhelm you as you arise from the waters of baptism, but these emotions arise from your belief that God will keep His promise and save you - not because God directly operates on your heart, forcing some miraculous and emotional experience. Emotionalism (which is an over-emphasis upon emotions and trusting in them for guidance) is generally rejected by Scripture (Acts 28:26). God's communication generally comes from the revealed and miraculously confirmed words of the apostles and prophets (Hebrews 2:1-4). Studying and believing these words will produce the confidence, comfort, and peace we seek (I Thessalonians 4:18; Philippians 4:4-7).
Furthermore, God provides a few different metrics by which we may test ourselves to confirm that we are saved and pleasing to Him. Please read more about it here:
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/know_i_am_saved.html
Keep in mind, God intended us to know that we have been saved. The first epistle of John (I John) was written to communicate and explain that very point, among other concerns...
| email wrote: | | Will they be completely free from the bondages of sin, and never sin anymore? |
Uhhm, yes and no. The saved are completely free from the bondage of sin. Sin no longer holds the fear of death and hell over their head (Romans 6:23; Hebrews 2:13-14). Furthermore, they now have the power to cease from sin (Romans 6:16-22; II Corinthians 10:3-5; Ephesians 6:10-18; James 4:6-8), and they are obligated to avoid sin (Romans 6:1-23). However, Christians often do sin once they have been saved (I John 2:1-2; Acts 8:9-24; Galatians 2:11-14). Thankfully, they have a means to obtain forgiveness, as was examined in a previous answer: Confess our sins and pray for forgiveness (I John 1:5-2:2).
I realize this is a lengthy answer, and I may have still not answered all of your questions. However, I would encourage you to read this a few times until it makes sense, and I would especially exhort you to study your Bible so that you may verify what I have said. The Scriptures commend the example of the Bereans who double-checked the apostle Paul (Acts 17:11). Now if it was good for them to double-check the preaching of an inspired apostle, you certainly should double-check me, not being inspired. Plus, you will learn much more than I could communicate by looking at the context of each passage. Ultimately, the Scriptures should be your final guide (Psalm 119:97-105). I am just a guide to help jump start you (Acts 8:30-35).
Please let me know what you think. Whatever other questions or concerns you have, please let me know. I can assure you that the Scriptures contain a consistent and truthful question to every question.
Well, I have to run to worship services. I look forward to hearing from you soon!
May God help us to have a sincere love of truth above all else.
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May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12) |
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| Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the detailed reply. This kind of detail (like so many others) can divide people and their belief stucture.
I realize that Satan is the master deceiver and tries everything to confuse. This issue is definitely very controversial. I wouldn't keep hearkening back to something as "Calvinist" as necessarily being wrong. From what I gather in the Scripture is that yes, Christians can fall by the wayside to great and utter despair. But I don't see where God will ever leave them or forsake them, once they have been born again. The wayward Christian may not have as many riches stored up in Heaven as would a Billy Graham-type person.
No one can really know or judge if someone is truly saved. But here is a story. What if someone was searching for the truth since he was very young, but never really seeming to find it. He heard that someone had to be good to get to heaven, but realized that he sinned every day...and couldn't stop sinning. He went to a few different denominations of churches, never to be fulfilled or enlightened. Then one day, during an alter call at a church that he attended for the first time, he JUMPED at the chance to go forward. (while not really knowing what he was doing) He went forward, prayed a prayer, (that he completely forgets what he said) and was baptized. Afterwards, someone asked him how he felt to be saved. He had no idea what that person was talking about. Was he saved?
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m273p15c
Joined: 28 Sep 1999
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, detailed answers can generate some strife, but they are only revealing what was already there - differences of belief, attitude, and practice. Plus, I prefer to follow Peter's advice and provide a little extra "detail":
| Peter wrote: | | If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (I Peter 4:11) |
If I cannot give book, chapter, and verse for my opinions, then they remain just that - opinions of men. All matters could be resolved, and division would cease, if we would trust the Scriptures by using them to settle matters. I pray that in our corner of the world - at least you and I can do that. ... Now on to your new questions...
| email wrote: | | I realize that Satan is the master deceiver and tries everything to confuse. This issue is definitely very controversial. I wouldn't keep hearkening back to something as "Calvinist" as necessarily being wrong. From what I gather in the Scripture is that yes, Christians can fall by the wayside to great and utter despair. But I don't see where God will ever leave them or forsake them, once they have been born again. The wayward Christian may not have as many riches stored up in Heaven as would a Billy Graham-type person. |
Well, yes, you are right. I do not disagree with everything Calvin said, just because he said it. Rather, I do not believe his doctrine summarized as "once saved, always saved", simply because I cannot support it from the Bible. Unless we can find Scripture for any doctrine, why would one hold to a belief in the face of contradictory Scriptures? For example, let us consider more closely the idea of "levels in heaven".
First, what Scripture supports there being multiple "levels" of reward in heaven? To borrow a page from your book: Where does the Bible describe the process of falling from one level to another? How does one know when he has been downgraded? How can he get back to his upgraded status? Where are the Scriptures that support this model? ... I realize that the belief is an essential add-on to prop up this crumbling tenet of Calvinism, but outside of one's theology requiring it, where is the Bible basis for such a notion? I only read of one reward, heaven. I cannot find mention of various levels anywhere. If you show them to me, you would be my friend.
Second, what do you think of the following Scriptures, which suggest that one can be lost?
| Paul wrote: | | You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.[/i] (Galatians 5:4) |
Can one be saved if they are "estranged, severed, cut off" from Christ? Is there salvation outside of Christ (Acts 4:12)? Is there salvation apart from grace (Romans 3:24)? So, then how were these Galatians still saved? Please note, they had become and had fallen (sic) from this previous status. This was not a case of someone falling away, who had only been playing the hypocrite. These people had enjoyed both grace and a relationship with Christ. Do you believe that more is needed for salvation?
| Peter wrote: | | For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."[/i] (II Peter 2:20-22) |
Again, by forcing ourselves to study the passage carefully, we encounter several difficulties: How could the end be worse for such a person than the beginning? They were lost before being converted, correct? And now, they are saved, but yet somehow they are in a worse condition? Please explain. Notice they were "entangled and overcome". They were not merely despairing or weighed down, but overcome. This is very reminiscent of Jesus' parable of the sower and 4 types of ground, especially the thorny ground (Matthew 13:18-23). Were those people saved, even though they were choked out?
Here is the most essential point with which I hope and pray you will wrestle: Calvinism, including the statements you have made, sound very consistent and appealing. My experience with Calvinists is that they generally have answers for everything. Most are very familiar with their theology and have well thought out and answered many questions. For this, I admire and appreciate them. However, that is not enough! Anybody can develop a self-consistent theology, especially if multiple people whittle on it for 300+ years. But, we must ask, "Is the the theology consistent with the Bible, all of it?" ! This is the test you and I must face. If we cannot reconcile our beliefs with the Scriptures, then our beliefs are invalid - period. Otherwise, we establish a new standard outside of the Bible.
Please review your beliefs and answers. Are they rooted in Scripture or an abstract theology? How many verses are you using to support your beliefs? How are you dealing with contradictory Scriptures?
Remember, the Holy Spirit commended the Bereans for double-checking the inspired apostle Paul (Acts 17:11), so should not we double check our uninspired beliefs with the Scripture? As kindly, lovingly, and earnestly as I know how, I ask, "Please give me book, chapter, and verse."
Incidentally, just because a person falls away, it would be a mistake to understand that God has abandoned them (Luke 22:32-34).
| email wrote: | | No one can really know or judge if someone is truly saved. |
True, that is left up to Jesus (John 5:22-23; II Timothy 4:1). We would be leaving "our proper habitation" to undertake such a task (James 4:11-12; Jude 1:6). However, one can know if he personally is saved (I John 5:13 - please see previous note for detailed defense).
| email wrote: | | But here is a story. What if someone was searching for the truth since he was very young, but never really seeming to find it. He heard that someone had to be good to get to heaven, but realized that he sinned every day...and couldn't stop sinning. He went to a few different denominations of churches, never to be fulfilled or enlightened. Then one day, during an alter call at a church that he attended for the first time, he JUMPED at the chance to go forward. (while not really knowing what he was doing) He went forward, prayed a prayer, (that he completely forgets what he said) and was baptized. Afterwards, someone asked him how he felt to be saved. He had no idea what that person was talking about. Was he saved |
Your story has two compelling questions, although one you did not ask. ... Will God ensure that truthseekers find the truth? I believe the answer is an overwhelming, yes. Based on His character (II Peter 3:9; Romans 2:4), on His track record for ensuring that seeking souls found a teacher (Acts 8:26-39; 9:1-18; 10:1-6; 18:9-11, etc...), on His already making the supreme and greater sacrifice (Romans 8:32), and on His promise (Matthew 7:7-11), I believe there will not be anybody who will slip through the cracks in God's hands! The question for you is, "Do you believe God will allow your story to happen?" "Will God let someone go through his whole life, wanting to know the truth, but yet always be deprived of the opportunity to learn the real truth?"
Now, in regards to the final salvation of the person in your story, I need some additional info before I can answer. Since you invented the story, please tell me, did the person know what he was doing or not? Was he operating on the truth or not?
We know faith is required to please God, so if you tell me that the person did not really have faith, then you have your answer (Hebrews 11:6). If you are telling me that the person had genuine faith, which would require that he knew what he was doing (Romans 10:17), and he later fell away, then you know what I believe already. Beyond that, I am not really sure what you are asking. If you do not mind clarifying, I would be happy to answer more fully. ... I am happy to answer hypothetical questions, but ultimately I do not think they serve our mutual purpose of communicating and testing ideas against the Scripture, because hypothetical cases generally require so much refinement before one can actually answer. Even then, our place is not to judge one's salvation but to preach the gospel, so it's context is still skewed and awkward at best, which hampers communication.
Regardless, I think it is crucial that we ultimately move from the realm of the hypothetical to the personal -- What about you and me? Have we done what the Scriptures require for our salvation?
What do you think? Or asked more rightly, "How do you read?" I look forward to hearing from you soon!
May God help us to brave open eyes.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: |
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People are people, and we can fall into a rut of being stubborn, combative, and thinking we are right. However you want to put it, semantically. The many different denominations of churches attests to that. Christians can't even seem to be free of divisions, yet they all claim to be right (there are even denominations within denominations) From my opinion, I have known Baptists to claim to have all the answers, much like you say that Calvinists do. And, as far as quoting Scripture to back-up your claims, Satan does that as well. Remeber, a little child can sometimes be wiser than the wisest of elders or teachers.
One thing that I want to point out. I believe that this verse you quoted
| Paul wrote: | | You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4) |
It is talking about the sin nature of man. When we are born, if anyone of us was to never sin, then he wouldn't fall from grace. But unfortunately, everyone has.
As far as "levels" of heaven go, here is the verse I was talking about. “lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.” To me, it sounds like if we are good Christians, winning souls for him etc. there will be rewards in heaven.
And what about this?
| The author of Hebrews wrote: | | Hebrews 12:16-17 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. |
The last phrase of this verse is usually stressed heavily in order to show how Esau plead with God for forgiveness, but “God turned a deaf ear to his cry, and spurned his petition.” Does this mean that God won't save everyone who asks for forgiveness.
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m273p15c
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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I appreciate you including Scriptures in your response. I look forward to answering them below:
| email wrote: | | People are people, and we can fall into a rut of being stubborn, combative, and thinking we are right. However you want to put it, semantically. The many different denominations of churches attests to that. Christians can't even seem to be free of divisions, yet they all claim to be right (there are even denominations within denominations) From my opinion, I have known Baptists to claim to have all the answers, much like you say that Calvinists do. And, as far as quoting Scripture to back-up your claims, Satan does that as well. Remeber, a little child can sometimes be wiser than the wisest of elders or teachers. |
I must admit that I fail to see your point. Are you trying to suggest that we cannot understand the Bible alike or that this is a hopeless endeavor? Paul said that:
| Paul wrote: | | ... how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets (Ephesians 3:3-5) |
Therefore, if we cannot understand the Bible, whose fault would that be? God's fault or our fault?
Yes, division does exist, and many people are claiming to be right; however, that eliminates neither the obligation nor possibility to be right. In fact, God commands us to eliminate division on the level of the local church, and Jesus prayed for global unity:
| Paul wrote: | | Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (I Corinthians 1:10-13) |
| John, recording Jesus' prayer, wrote: | I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
(John 20:20-23) |
Jesus states that He had given glory to the apostles and us ("those who will believe in Me through their word"), which glory would enable us to be united as one ("given them, that hey may be one just as We are one"). Looking at the context, let us consider, "What is that "glory" "? The context seems to firmly support that "glory" was the words given to the apostles by Jesus, which would constitute the Bible, and which were originally given to Him by the Father ( John 17:4, 6, 7, 8, 13, 14, 17, 19, 20). Consequently, Jesus and God planned that the Bible, God's Word, would be the very vehicle to bring about our unity! Therefore, we should spend less time disparaging it and more time studying it; otherwise, we will not be part of that one!
Finally, Satan did quote Scripture, but notice how Jesus corrected Him:
| Matthew wrote: | | Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.' " Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.' " (Matthew 4:5-7) |
Did Jesus say, "Ahh, stalemate! We both managed to quote a Scripture!"? Or, did Jesus back up and try another technique, since the Devil used Scripture? No, Jesus continued to use Scripture. In fact, He used Scripture to show that Satan mishandled it. And therein lies our goal and obligation: To pull together enough Scripture to weed out ideas that contradict with Scripture as a whole. Yes, anybody can quote a verse out of context, but it should be relatively easy to find a verse contradicting it, showing it as a misinterpretation. In contrast, the truth will be consistent with all Scriptures and contradictory to none (Titus 1:2). In fact, being able to use the Scriptures and point out contradictions with it, is both the way and requirement for an elder to rebuke the false teacher ( Titus 1:2, 9-11). Granted, there are some passages, which are "difficult to understand" (II Peter 3:15-17); however, they are not impossible to understand, and with some diligence, we should be able to understand them (II Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17; Ephesians 3:3-5 ).
Therefore, I would happily quote Scripture, being thankful for the opportunity. Otherwise, we would be stuck trying to battle this out using our own wits. Thankfully, by carefully using Scripture, we can together turn to God and learn His will on the matter!
| email wrote: | One thing that I want to point out. I believe that this verse you quoted:
| Paul wrote: | | You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4) |
It is talking about the sin nature of man. When we are born, if anyone of us was to never sin, then he wouldn't fall from grace. But unfortunately, everyone has. |
Thanks for responding to this passage. I understand what you are saying, but I believe the context does not support that interpretation, as seen below:
| Paul wrote: | 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law .
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:1-4) |
Although we are all born innoccent and fall from that innocence by sin (Romans 7:7-11), this initial condtion is not regarded as one of grace. In contrast, one who never sins is regarded as one justified by "works" or "law", which is in contrast to God's system of grace (Romans 4:1-8; Galatians 3:1-ff). Therefore, the proposed interpretation contradicts the common usage of "grace" in Scripture, and must be untrue. Furthermore, the immediate context, quoted above, speaks of these people previously being free in Christ and warns of them being entangled again. In fact, the contrast in this very passage is between "law" and "grace". Those who are seeking redemption by following the law (the Law of Moses) have abandoned redemption by grace (Christ's New Covenant). Since this passage clearly refers to these people as being made free, and since it warns of being entangled again, it cannot possibly refer to people who have never sinned and are only now coming under the bondage of sin.
If you see any support for your proposed interpretation, or if you see that my interpretation contradicts the context, please let me know.
| email wrote: | | As far as "levels" of heaven go, here is the verse I was talking about. "lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal." To me, it sounds like if we are good Christians, winning souls for him etc. there will be rewards in heaven. |
I will concede that there may be varying degrees of reward in heaven. For example, Paul may enjoy richer blessings than I. I am open to that idea, if it can be shown in Scripture. Unfortunately, I do not think this verse will accomplish that goal. Here's the broader context for reference:
| Matthew wrote: | 16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
17 "But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face,
18 "so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal;
20 " but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.
21 "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light.
23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? (Matthew 6:16-25) |
Generally, Jesus is here admonishing us to not have a materialistic outlook. Our focus should not be the acquiring of men's esteem or earthly wealth. In the middle of this point is the verse you referenced. I confess that the verse implies there may be multiple blessings in heaven as opposed to a single blessing. This idea is easy to imagine and realize. Will we not enjoy being with God, Jesus, the Spirit, and thousands of saints and angels beyond number? What about no tears, no sin, no illness, no evil, no darkness...? Would not each of these things constitute a blessing? Therefore, we might enjoy thousands of blessings in heaven. Consequently, I would not dispute that there are multiple "treasures" in heaven, but that is not the point of the passage.
The summary verse shows us the point: "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Notice that Jesus speaks of a treasure, singular. Therefore, His point does not regard the amount, mechanism for acquiring, or degree of reward. His point is for us to set our hearts on heaven! The lack of consistency in plurality indicates that we are stretching the verse beyond its original intention to use it as a proof-text for differing degrees of reward.
Furthermore, where does this verse say that there will be differing levels of reward? At best, the verse only teaches that there are multiple treasures in heaven. Can you show from the text that these treasures are laid up one at a time, based on individual action, versus being laid up all at once in a single action? Can you show that one person gets one reward, while someone else gets a different reward? I think we have to be very careful of not bringing our prejudices to interpret verses like this; otherwise, we see much more than is really there.
Actually, the parable of the denarius seems to suggest that everyone will receive the same reward. In it, everyone receives the same single denarius, regardless if they began the day's work at dawn, noon, or afternoon. They all got paid the same regardless (Matthew 20:1-16)! Would that not suggest the same reward regardless of effort?
Finally, even if one was able to prove there are varying levels of possible, personal reward in heaven, the verses that show the possibility of apostasy use phrases that cannot apply to any form of heaven:- "estranged from Christ" (Galatians 5:4) - Can one be saved or enjoy heaven apart from Christ?
- "fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4) - Can one be saved apart from grace?
- "disqualified" (I Corinthians 9:27) - not fearful that he might "miss first place", nor "settle for second", but "disqualified" from the race altogether.
- "an evil heart of unbelief departing from the living God" (Hebrews 3:12-13) - Can one be saved or enjoy heaven apart from God? Can on be saved with an evil heart? Can one be saved with out belief, or faith?
- "lest we drift away" by "neglecting so great a salvation" (sic - Hebrews 2:1-3 ) - Verse suggests we will be unable to escape receiving a just reward for every transgression and reward through this same neglection, which does not sound like heaven!
- "faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck " (I Timothy 1:19) - Can one be saved without a faith (Hebrews 11:6)?
- "again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. ... better for them not to have known the way of righteousness" (II Peter 2:20-22)
The real problem that must be confronted are the above passages, which indicate much more than just a reduction of reward. They indicate complete apostasy and rejection. Even if there are multiple levels of heaven, this cannot be used to explain the above passages.
| email wrote: | And what about this?
| The author of Hebrews wrote: | | Hebrews 12:16-17 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. |
The last phrase of this verse is usually stressed heavily in order to show how Esau plead with God for forgiveness, but "God turned a deaf ear to his cry, and spurned his petition." Does this mean that God won't save everyone who asks for forgiveness. |
No. Remember, Esau did not cry after he sold his birthright (Genesis 25:29-34). He cried after his judgment was handed down (Genesis 27:30-35). Likewise, if someone waits until judgment day to repent, it will be too late (Matthew 7:21-23; Hebrews 3:7-4:13; 9:27). As an example, the story of the rich man and Lazarus contains the only positive fulfillment to your question: After death and in torments, many people will regret their choices and seek forgiveness, but judgment will have already been sealed. Then, and only then, will it be too late (Luke 16:19-31 )!
Generally, as long as people live, they have opportunity to repent. As two extreme examples, if Paul, who was originally a murderer, persecutor, and torturer of Christians, can be saved, then cannot anybody? In fact, Jesus used Paul as an example of us His tremendous longsuffering (I Timothy 1:12-16). How about the Jews who crucified Jesus? Can we do worse than they? Yet, they were able to be saved (Acts 2:36-41)! I know of no case ever recorded in Scripture, where someone was denied salvation who submitted themselves to God. There is nothing to suggest that the truly penitent, diligent believer will be kept away from salvation. In fact, God's character suggests the very opposite (I Timothy 2:4; II Peter 3:9; Acts 17:26-27).
However, the Scriptures are very clear regarding the danger of delay. One can only push off conversion by hardening his heart. Every time one hardens his heart, it becomes more difficult and less likely that he will later repent. As more time passes in defiant rebellion, the less likely it will be that he will want to repent (Hebrews 6:4-8; 3:7-4:13). At some point, it will be impossible for him to repent, because he has so severely seared his conscience (I Timothy 4:1-2). In this regard, we can prevent ourselves from being saved. This is getting into blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is beyond the scope of your question, but I think it was worthy of a footnote, none the less.
Lastly, I realize this is a bit long, but if I could answer your questions more succinctly, I would. This is the very reason why diligence is required in studying the Scriptures (II Timothy 2:15; I Timothy 4:13, 15-16). It takes time to work through the detailed results of comparing our beliefs to Scripture as a whole. I pray that we will both stick with this, so that we may both receive the reward.
Please let me know "how you read". I look forward to hearing from you again soon,
May God help us to love Him supremely.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
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I'm afraid to say this...but I'm not sure that you are being an example of a good Christian, but instead a good example of a Pharisee (...who might have easily fell under the denomination of "Free Will Baptist", in this day and age) who just wants to be right, and thinks they are aways right. You are very argumentative and stubborn, and even though you are quoting lots of Scripture, I believe you are quoting Scripture out of context. It is quite possible. You are only human...remember that. You sin every day still, and can easily be wrong.
And unfortunately, you seem to be acting like a stereotypical American. (Even though you may not be. I have no idea) Please take a look at yourself. I actually feel pity for you, and pray that God would help guide you and give peace to your troubled soul.
Sincerely
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m273p15c
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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You could be right. I might be another modern day Pharisee. I face that possibility constantly. Therefore, I pray to God every day to open my eyes to every error, fault, or sin I may possess. If you are right, then I trust that the Lord will open my eyes, just as He opened an ancient Pharisee's eyes on the road to Damascus (Acts 9, 22; Philippians 3:3-8). Until that day, I do the best I can, operating on what I can read in the Bible and understand from it. I study with many others, like you, and do my best to honestly, openly, and thoroughly consider every word and argument they present. I visit every verse, reading it over and over again, examining the context, and saying a silent prayer to understand each and every word of God's, so that I may learn and see exactly what God wants me to see. Although each prayer may not be immediately answered, I have faith that every prayer will ultimately be answered, because He has so promised (Matthew 7:7-11).
I have prayed many times about this correspondence. Who knows maybe I was meant to be a Phillip, Annanias, or Peter sent to you ( Acts 8:26-30; 9:6-18; 10:1-6, 30-33, 47-48)? Consequently, I have pushed myself as hard as I humanly can, so that I might be a help to you if I can, while leaving the rest up to God. I probably cannot help, but I do not know until it is all over, and I dare not take that chance for your sake. Make no mistake. If my understanding is correct, our salvation may very well hang in the balance. Realizing that, maybe you can understand both my persistence and concern for this matter. I have pushed you only because I care for you.
But, I do not presume that I am right. You might be the one sent to play the role of Phillip, Ananias, or Peter, sent to remove "the scales from my eyes". You believe that I am taking these verses out of context; therefore, you might very well could be that teacher I so desperately need! It is very possible! So, what I do not understand is how you could walk away from me, in my hour of greatest need, since you feel pity for me? Show me how these verses are taken out of context and save me (James 5:19-20 )! Please do not say that I am wrong and not show me how or why. Please show me. Is it not reasonable that I not settle on your belief based on your word alone? Would you simply take my word for it, if the roles were reversed?
Why are you really exiting this discussion? Do you think that I am not worth the effort? Are you afraid that I will not fit into one of the neat little boxes, in which you keep trying to stuff me? Are you afraid to take a chance of possibly realizing that you might be in error? Are you troubled that closer inspection will reveal that you are the one who is taking verses out of context? Do you fear that I will tear through your personal belief system that comforts you, leaving you without peace? Why are you walking away? ... I can assure you this: If you fear that I might destroy something you have, it is only because I am trying to offer you something that is real and infinitely more valuable. We never need be afraid, if we are sincerely seeking the truth.
Maybe you think I am a hard-headed, hopeless case. That is fair. I walk away from some discussions thinking that, while wiping the dust off my feet. However, just make sure that you are not using that as an excuse to soothe your conscience and cover up the real reason.
I cannot know your heart, and I do not presume to know. However, I owe you much more than just walking away without trying...
May God help us both to have a sincere love for Him, each other, and the truth.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for your continued interest in further discussions, but I have chosen to not read any more of your e-mails, which included this last one.
God bless!
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