"As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." (Proverbs 27:17)
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JSM17
Joined: 13 May 2006
Posts: 273
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
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 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject: Salvation before faith? |
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I am not sure if anyone has ever noticed this, but by implication the hard core Calvinist (strong five pointer) must believe that when God bestows his irresistable grace upon the totally depraved elected human being he is saved before faith has occured.
One is regenerated by the Spirit before faith because he is dead and can do nothing.
Just as well "Repentance is something that occurs before faith"
Now, many Calvinist may try to argue against this, but logically if we are in this degenerate state with no hope apart from God moving us, then what else is there? In order for a Calvinst to believe he must be moved by God to develop faith.
So really it is not by faith alone it is by nothing alone. Its all God forcing himself upon men who would never choose him. Robots, forced salvation that occurs without any personal faith what so ever.
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...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power... |
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m273p15c
Joined: 28 Sep 1999
Posts: 500
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: yes, you are correct |
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Yes, I believe your are very correct, Jeff. In fact, hard core, knowledgeable Calvinists not only confess this, they profess it gladly. Here are a few quotes from the article on Unconditional Election:
| ISOT wrote: | These implications can be observed in quotations from Calvin's Institutes:
| Calvin wrote: | "I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy, unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknew what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree." Institutes, Book III, chap. 23, para. 7
"All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death." Institutes, Book III, chapter 21, para. 5
"Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at His own pleasure arranged it." Institutes, Book III, chapter 32, p. 232 |
They can also be observed in this statement of creed:
| Quote: | "Question: What are the decrees of God?
"Answer: God's decrees are the wise, free and holy acts of the counsel of His will, whereby, from all eternity, He hath for His own glory, unchangeably foreordained whatsoever comes to pass in time, especially concerning angels and men" The Westminster Larger Catechism, Question 12, p. 97 |
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The total and exclusive exercise of God's absolute sovereignty makes Him absolutely responsible for everything. To Calvin and his true disciples, we are puppets - nothing more.
I would not like it, but I would accept it, if that is what the evidence showed and the Bible taught. However, that simply isn't true:
| The Psalmist wrote: | | Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. (Psalm 110:3) |
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May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12) |
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