In Search of Truth - All posts http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/index.php "As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." (Proverbs 27:17) en-gb Copyright (c) 2005 In Search of Truth truthseekers@insearchoftruth.org (In Search of Truth) truthseekers@insearchoftruth.org (In Search of Truth) Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:00:00 -0600 Thu, 11 Mar 2010 02:10:01 -0600 MSSTI RSS Feed 2.0 Version 1.2.1 - (C) 2008-2009 leviatan21 - http://www.mssti.com/ In Search of Truth - All posts http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/styles/isot_silver/imageset/forums_title.png http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/index.php 60 DVM http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5232#p5232 Where did you grow up? Ohio

How did you come to be interested in spiritual things?
I was raised in a "traditional" family, church on Sunday sort. It became habit on which I followed through. I am finally taking steps to affirm why I believe the things I believe.

Do you have any affiliation to a particular church, person, document, etc.?
I consider myself a member of the Lord's church. (Matthew 16:18) I follow the Bible as best as I can ascertain and associate with like-minded believers. I do not hold to any man-made doctrines or creeds.

What spiritual topics are the current focus of your thoughts and studies?
What is worship? Learning how to logically and consistently apply the word of God to my life.

For what are you looking on the forums? Why are you here?
Honest discussion and different viewpoints. I believe the best (most complete) solution possible is to look at a problem from as many different views as possible. I'm not naive enough to think that I don't have any bias. I'm looking for help to look around my bias.

Do you have personal goals you wish to accomplish on the forums? Do you have any topics that you consider important, which you wish to discuss with others?
No personal goals, but if I can help any one else along their path, that would be great. I have already been posting topics and just got around to doing the introduction. Sorry if I put the cart before the horse. Image

Statistics : Posted by dvm • on Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:40 pm
]]> Where did you grow up? Ohio

How did you come to be interested in spiritual things?
I was raised in a "traditional" family, church on Sunday sort. It became habit on which I followed through. I am finally taking steps to affirm why I believe the things I believe.

Do you have any affiliation to a particular church, person, document, etc.?
I consider myself a member of the Lord's church. (Matthew 16:18) I follow the Bible as best as I can ascertain and associate with like-minded believers. I do not hold to any man-made doctrines or creeds.

What spiritual topics are the current focus of your thoughts and studies?
What is worship? Learning how to logically and consistently apply the word of God to my life.

For what are you looking on the forums? Why are you here?
Honest discussion and different viewpoints. I believe the best (most complete) solution possible is to look at a problem from as many different views as possible. I'm not naive enough to think that I don't have any bias. I'm looking for help to look around my bias.

Do you have personal goals you wish to accomplish on the forums? Do you have any topics that you consider important, which you wish to discuss with others?
No personal goals, but if I can help any one else along their path, that would be great. I have already been posting topics and just got around to doing the introduction. Sorry if I put the cart before the horse. Image

Statistics : Posted by dvm • on Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:40 pm
]]> mattk@centurytel.net (dvm)Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:40:04 -0600http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5232#p5232 Re: Fear and Worship http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5231#p5231
Deuteronomy 26:1-10; the firstfruits offering (the sacrifice) is a separate action from worship in verses 10. "...And you shall set it down before the LORD your God and worship before the LORD your God."

1 Samuel 1:3; Elkanah's yearly actions are set into 2 parts "to worship and to sacrifice to the Lord of hosts in Shiloh."

2 Kings 17:35-36; idol "worship" is prohibited while true "worship" is commanded. Consider the actions toward each; fear, worship [bow], serve, sacrifice.

2 Chronicles 32:12; Hezekiah's command "...Before one altar you shall worship, and on it you shall burn your sacrifices" [also compare to 2 Kings 18:22, Isaiah 36:7]

Final thoughts for today, God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son in Genesis 22:1. In verse 5 while Abraham was travelling to the location specified by God, told the servants to "stay" while "I and the boy will go over there and worship...". Traditionally, I have been taught that the offering of his son as a sacrifice was worship. However, James 2:21 called Abraham's sacrifice a "work". If the sacrifice was a work (an act, a deed, a thing done), then what was worship?

Statistics : Posted by dvm • on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:54 pm
]]>
Deuteronomy 26:1-10; the firstfruits offering (the sacrifice) is a separate action from worship in verses 10. "...And you shall set it down before the LORD your God and worship before the LORD your God."

1 Samuel 1:3; Elkanah's yearly actions are set into 2 parts "to worship and to sacrifice to the Lord of hosts in Shiloh."

2 Kings 17:35-36; idol "worship" is prohibited while true "worship" is commanded. Consider the actions toward each; fear, worship [bow], serve, sacrifice.

2 Chronicles 32:12; Hezekiah's command "...Before one altar you shall worship, and on it you shall burn your sacrifices" [also compare to 2 Kings 18:22, Isaiah 36:7]

Final thoughts for today, God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son in Genesis 22:1. In verse 5 while Abraham was travelling to the location specified by God, told the servants to "stay" while "I and the boy will go over there and worship...". Traditionally, I have been taught that the offering of his son as a sacrifice was worship. However, James 2:21 called Abraham's sacrifice a "work". If the sacrifice was a work (an act, a deed, a thing done), then what was worship?

Statistics : Posted by dvm • on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:54 pm
]]> mattk@centurytel.net (dvm)Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:54:34 -0600http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5231#p5231 Re: The second serving of the Lord's supper http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5230#p5230
Acts 20:7; a congregation of believers assembled on the first of the Sabbath (first day of the week) and broke bread. Was it all the saints of that location? Some of the saints? Did they meet later that day and partake again? It is left unrevealed.

1 Corinthians 11:18ff; a congregation was "gathered in one place", but those of privilege (with provisions) observed a wrapped version of the Lord's Supper, eating and drinking all of their provisions, while those less fortunate (without provisions) watched. The command to "tarry" or "wait" is one that enjoins joint participation. The "unworthy manner" is "not discerning the Lord's body", meaning not recognizing what they were doing to the church or the body (vs. 22 cf). Again were all of the saints of that location gathered? Some of the saints? Did they gather at other times? It is left unrevealed.

If it can be deduced that it was practiced, then you would have specific authority, which we don't. If it can be deduced that it was not practiced, then we follow the pattern. (Speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent) "Our only safety...is to be found in copying precisely the form instituted by divine authority" J. W. McGarvey 1910. If it can't be deduced at all then you follow your conscience.

Statistics : Posted by dvm • on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:35 pm
]]>
Acts 20:7; a congregation of believers assembled on the first of the Sabbath (first day of the week) and broke bread. Was it all the saints of that location? Some of the saints? Did they meet later that day and partake again? It is left unrevealed.

1 Corinthians 11:18ff; a congregation was "gathered in one place", but those of privilege (with provisions) observed a wrapped version of the Lord's Supper, eating and drinking all of their provisions, while those less fortunate (without provisions) watched. The command to "tarry" or "wait" is one that enjoins joint participation. The "unworthy manner" is "not discerning the Lord's body", meaning not recognizing what they were doing to the church or the body (vs. 22 cf). Again were all of the saints of that location gathered? Some of the saints? Did they gather at other times? It is left unrevealed.

If it can be deduced that it was practiced, then you would have specific authority, which we don't. If it can be deduced that it was not practiced, then we follow the pattern. (Speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent) "Our only safety...is to be found in copying precisely the form instituted by divine authority" J. W. McGarvey 1910. If it can't be deduced at all then you follow your conscience.

Statistics : Posted by dvm • on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:35 pm
]]> mattk@centurytel.net (dvm)Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:35:30 -0600http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5230#p5230 Re: Funerals & Weddings http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5229#p5229
The purpose of a wedding is to join two people in front of friends and family. The purpose of the Lord's money is to spread the Gospel to a lost & dying world. Sure, there is reference made to God's plan for marriage and family, but the primary purpose of a wedding isn't to teach the lost. Even if the wedding party agreed to reimburse the treasury for utility expenses, there would still be the public impression that the church approves of non-church activities with the Lord's money.

As for funerals: Mt.8:22 But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.” Jesus told his disciples it was time to move on. One said to wait for him to bury his father. Jesus made it clear he was more concerned with teaching the living than dealing with the rotting flesh of the dead. Why would His judgement for wasting His money be any different than this disciple wasting His time?

Statistics : Posted by BensMom • on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:40 pm
]]>
The purpose of a wedding is to join two people in front of friends and family. The purpose of the Lord's money is to spread the Gospel to a lost & dying world. Sure, there is reference made to God's plan for marriage and family, but the primary purpose of a wedding isn't to teach the lost. Even if the wedding party agreed to reimburse the treasury for utility expenses, there would still be the public impression that the church approves of non-church activities with the Lord's money.

As for funerals: Mt.8:22 But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.” Jesus told his disciples it was time to move on. One said to wait for him to bury his father. Jesus made it clear he was more concerned with teaching the living than dealing with the rotting flesh of the dead. Why would His judgement for wasting His money be any different than this disciple wasting His time?

Statistics : Posted by BensMom • on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:40 pm
]]> smithcp@digitalonline.org (BensMom)Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:40:05 -0600http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5229#p5229 Re: Should a confession be made before baptism? http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5228#p5228 commanded by Jesus, it is simply that; confessing who Jesus is and your belief in Him and His power to save before your fellow man! What newly convicted believer would not jump at the chance to shout it from the roof top, especially before an assembly of believers? God is good. Image

Statistics : Posted by dvm • on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:38 pm
]]> commanded by Jesus, it is simply that; confessing who Jesus is and your belief in Him and His power to save before your fellow man! What newly convicted believer would not jump at the chance to shout it from the roof top, especially before an assembly of believers? God is good. Image

Statistics : Posted by dvm • on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:38 pm
]]> mattk@centurytel.net (dvm)Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:38:02 -0600http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5228#p5228 Re: what is the real issue? http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5227#p5227 m273p15c wrote:How can one use the treasury to conduct weddings and funerals, because during the ceremony, "the unbelieving can be exposed to the word and love of God", without also justifying schools, hospitals, and other missions of mixed social and spiritual missions using the same reasoning? ... Ultimately, my question is, "Where is the authority?"

Maybe I'm unclear as to the statements made Image Are you saying "use the treasury", as money collected from the saints to buy things for the wedding like decorations, the cake, plates, etc. Or just by using the building that is using the treasury?

Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding." All we have to go on is the inspired, written word. The scriptures do not deal with such issues as for what the church building can be used. Because the 1st century churches did not have buildings bought and paid for by the church treasury. They meet in homes (Rom 16:5, 1 Cor. 16:19, Col. 4:15), by rivers (Acts 16:13), etc. So how do you expect to find authority for what you can use a church owned building, when there was no such thing until after the inspired writings were completed? Thus, unfortunately, it falls to the realm of judgment, applying generic authority.

I agree (and am just as frustrated when), there is no specific authority or "thus sayeth the Lord". The question then becomes is there generic authority? Does Matthew 5:16 provide for the church, the collection of saints, to do good works, collectively, so that God can be glorified? I know this is before the church was established, but does the principle apply? Thus a matter of judgment?

Statistics : Posted by dvm • on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:19 pm
]]> m273p15c wrote:How can one use the treasury to conduct weddings and funerals, because during the ceremony, "the unbelieving can be exposed to the word and love of God", without also justifying schools, hospitals, and other missions of mixed social and spiritual missions using the same reasoning? ... Ultimately, my question is, "Where is the authority?"

Maybe I'm unclear as to the statements made Image Are you saying "use the treasury", as money collected from the saints to buy things for the wedding like decorations, the cake, plates, etc. Or just by using the building that is using the treasury?

Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding." All we have to go on is the inspired, written word. The scriptures do not deal with such issues as for what the church building can be used. Because the 1st century churches did not have buildings bought and paid for by the church treasury. They meet in homes (Rom 16:5, 1 Cor. 16:19, Col. 4:15), by rivers (Acts 16:13), etc. So how do you expect to find authority for what you can use a church owned building, when there was no such thing until after the inspired writings were completed? Thus, unfortunately, it falls to the realm of judgment, applying generic authority.

I agree (and am just as frustrated when), there is no specific authority or "thus sayeth the Lord". The question then becomes is there generic authority? Does Matthew 5:16 provide for the church, the collection of saints, to do good works, collectively, so that God can be glorified? I know this is before the church was established, but does the principle apply? Thus a matter of judgment?

Statistics : Posted by dvm • on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:19 pm
]]> mattk@centurytel.net (dvm)Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:19:58 -0600http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5227#p5227 Re: Fear and Worship http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5226#p5226 Quote:to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience. Either word "yare" in the Hebrew or "phobeo" in the Greek, it appears more attitude rather than an action.
Quote:Can you think of a time when he "corrected" the Septuagint?
As far as "correcting" the scriptures, I'm not sure. He has however corrected the Jewish interpretation of scripture, for instance Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28.

Statistics : Posted by dvm • on Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:20 pm
]]> Quote:to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience. Either word "yare" in the Hebrew or "phobeo" in the Greek, it appears more attitude rather than an action.
Quote:Can you think of a time when he "corrected" the Septuagint?
As far as "correcting" the scriptures, I'm not sure. He has however corrected the Jewish interpretation of scripture, for instance Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28.

Statistics : Posted by dvm • on Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:20 pm
]]> mattk@centurytel.net (dvm)Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:20:43 -0600http://forums.insearchoftruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=5226#p5226