I apologize for the extremely delayed response. Shortly after I sent you the last note, my son got sick again. Once he was well, I had a lot of work piled up that was related to the local church. I did receive your first e-mail, but I have been so busy that I have not had the time to devote to a worthy response. I hope you have not forgotten the topic of our correspondence.
I believe you misunderstood my original statement of pointing out that much of
John 14-17 was addressed to the apostles. You stated that all of Jesus utterances were universal in nature, except a few obvious situations. However, by noting the exceptions, you proved that you cannot accurately interpret Scripture, if you consistently apply your principle. That alone discredits it, but with that being said, I'd like to explore this concept in more detail:
It is true that none of the Bible was written directly to us. Most of it was addressed to people who died almost 2000 years ago. It is truly a mistake to say that none of it applies, because it does not have our name in the address; however, it is an equal mistake to go to the other extreme and say that it all applies. You said there are exceptions, but by what standard do you determine the exceptions? How do you prevent the standard from being one of convenience? I greatly fear binding the subjective standard of man wherever God has revealed His mind.
We must put everything together that God has said on certain subject. This is the reason for examining passages, such as
Acts 8; I Corinthians 13; Jude 1; etc.
Additionally, statements must be considered in their context. For example:
Luke wrote:"On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to Him, Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You.' And He said to them, 'Go, tell that fox, "Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected."'" (Luke 13:31-32)
I'm sure you will immediately note this is an obvious exception, but how did you arrive at that conclusion? Jesus gave the command to find Herod and convey Jesus' detailed message. Is that command applicable to us? It is a direct command, but we understand it was not meant for us. How? It was addressed to wicked, hypocritical Pharisees. Herod is long dead. And, Jesus has long since been perfected. It is impossible to keep, and it was not addressed to people like us. However, there are still many lessons to be learned that could be applied to us, such as: Don't try to scare away teachers of truth. It does not change the truthfulness of the message, even if they stop preaching. Wicked people must be confronted and evidence of the truth should be provided to them, just as to the humble. Whenever I find myself in situations where I'm confronted with wicked people, who seek to intimidate me, I will remember and apply this lesson. If I find myself doing such wicked things, then I pray I will remember the other half of the lesson and repent. Regardless, the direct command is ignored, because it does not apply to me.
Many commands are given in the Bible that are specific to people, like "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam" (
John 9:7). However, the command does not apply directly to me. Some promises were also given that do not directly apply to me, like "I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; And you shall be a blessing" (
Genesis 12:2). As you see, not every promise, even good promises, found in the Bible must apply to me. I must consider the context, including the people addressed. If applying to me the promise of John 14-17 conflicts with other Scripture, then that should be our first clue that it was not intended for me.
Additionally, please consider, if all instructions were given to all alike, then what is the difference between apostles, elders, deacons, evangelists, and saints? If all are to do the same things, given the same responsibilities, commanded the same role, then why are so many positions given that are identical (
Ephesians 4:11; I Corinthians 12:28-31)? Maybe not every given instruction applies to everybody?
With that in mind, please reconsider my points from the last correspondence, quoted here:
m273p15c wrote:You mentioned John 14:26; 16:13 as evidence for the Spirit guiding us today. Was that promise specific to all saints, or just the apostles? Please examine the context closely. In addition to containing commandments, which could only be observed by the apostles (John 15:27), John 14-16 also contains numerous immediate, personal references to the apostles (John 14:1-11, 15-18, 19-20, 22, 25-31; 15:3, 15, 26-27; 16:1-7, 12-22, 29-33). Additionally, it contains other promises, which were uniquely fulfilled in the first century (John 14:12-14; 16:23-27).
Even if it is a universal promise, does this passage really offer proof to inspired interpretation? What are the specifics of the promise? Did the Lord promise that the Spirit would reveal, instruct, and remind (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:12-15)? Or, did He promise that the Spirit would help them understand the truth that was right in front of them, already delivered and confirmed? In other words, did Christ promise that the Spirit would reveal truth, or interpret truth already revealed and accessible?
Finally, Jesus did mention us in His reference to those who would follow the apostles. However, He specifically noted these saints as "those who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20). Why would we need to believe "through their word", if we are going to be given the Holy Spirit just like them?
Beside conflicting with the immediate context of John 14-17, the remainder of Scripture denies the possibility of continued miraculous guidance by the Holy Spirit. It was foretold that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit would come to an end, once revelation of the gospel was completed (I Corinthians 13:8-13; James 1:25; Jude 1:3; Zechariah 13:1-5). Furthermore, if spiritual gifts were bestowed through the laying on of apostles' hands (Acts 8:4-17; Acts 8:14-20; Acts 19:1-6; Romans 1:9-11; II Timothy 1:6), then how would this gift be bestowed today, since all the apostles are long dead?
How did Paul say that the Ephesians could understand the truth (Ephesians 3:3-5)? Why can we not do the same (II Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17)? Why is the four witnesses that Jesus offered, which I discussed earlier, not sufficient?
There are many points here that you did not answer. However, you raised some additional arguments that I'd like to consider now:
email wrote:If we assume that the truth has been revealed, is accessible and confirmed, and it is in front of us, why then so many sects and groups amongst us? With that kind of an understanding, we are concluding indirectly that the Holy Spirit was not required at all even for the apostles! Why so many denominations? Why so many cults?
I'm surprised you mentioned this, because I believe this to be strong evidence against modern day miraculous signs and revelation. If there all these people claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, but yet, they are in absolute chaos and disagreement, then that proves their message does not originate with God. God does not lie (
Titus 1:2), and He's not a God of chaos (
I Corinthians 14:33); therefore, He cannot be behind all of these messages. Maybe one of them is telling the truth, so
how will we know if someone is speaking by God's direct inspiration?
- Agree with apostolic revelation - "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37)
- Confirm Message with Indisputable Miraculous Signs - "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?" (Hebrews 2:3-4)
If someone claims to have the same power that was given to the apostles, then they should also be able to work the same miraculous signs of an apostle on demand (
II Corinthians 12:12). If they cannot demonstrate that part of the promise, then how can we have any confidence that they received the rest of the promise of direct revelation?
email wrote:With that kind of an understanding, we are concluding indirectly that the Holy Spirit was not required at all even for the apostles!
The apostles and prophets delivered the truth, which we can now read and understand (
Ephesians 3:3-5; II Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17). It was by inspiration that they delivered this truth. They could not read, study, and understand what was not yet delivered. I fear these kinds of statements demonstrate you are moving too quickly through my notes. I believe if you had thought this through, you would have either thought better of me, or better of this kind of logic. I pray these notes are seriously considered, as I consider yours with the utmost of sincerity and care. Please take this not as a rebuke, but as a brotherly concern.
email wrote:I do not think that the miraculous spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit are no longer available. As I understand, I do not see any confirmation of this in the verses you have quoted: I Corinthians 13:8-13;James 1:25; Jude 1:3 and Zechariah 13:1-5. On the contrary Jesus promised the presence of the Spirit forever (John 14:16). It would mean that the unchanging attributes of the Spirit would continue always as it was before.
You are assuming from
John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit would not change how He interacted with the saints. Nowhere does Jesus promise that the Spirit would be with us forever AND always do the same things in the same way. Let's look at the referenced passages a little more closely:
In
I Corinthians 13:8, Paul specifically says that the miraculous gifts will come to an end:
Paul wrote:"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away."
These things are meant to come to an end. They were not intended to last forever. When was this end to come?
"For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." (I Corinthians 13:9-10)
Whenever the "perfect" comes, then these partial things will be done away. What is the perfect? Well, it's not a person, because "which" refers to a thing not a person, so it can't refer to Jesus. Also, the word for "perfect" means "complete, whole, or mature". It's antonym is the word for "part", used in this same passage. "Part" and "perfect", or "whole, mature" are always of the same substance when used together. Whatever the "part" is, the "perfect" is the same type of thing, but completed! Again, what is the part?
Paul wrote:"But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part." (I Corinthians 13:8-9)
These people walked in the light of partial revelation. Whether obtained through prophecies, tongues, or directly inspired knowledge, the revelation received was only in part. It was not yet complete. When was it completed?
James wrote:"But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does." (James 1:25)
James recognizes the "law of the liberty" as "perfect". However, by the writing of James' letter, it was still not completely recorded, although it was a system that was perfect, which only needed to be completely revealed. When did that occur?
Jude wrote:"Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 1:3)
Notice that Jude says the faith, had been "once for all delivered to the saints." By this time, the delivery of the perfect faith to the saints was past tense. The perfect had come! One of the last books of the Bible, Jude was part of the closing door on direct inspiration. Once the word had been completely revealed and confirmed, there was no more need for miracles, any more than there was ongoing need for Christ to be continually crucified and resurrected for all to see.
Paul alludes to their weakness in the closing verses of
I Corinthians 13:
Paul wrote:"But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known." (I Corinthians 13:10-12)
The Bible contains all that we need to know to see ourselves just as God sees us. (Notice that Paul uses the same illustration that James used in James 1:23-25.) Just as the scaffolding for a large building is torn down after the building is completed, and just as a grown man puts away childish toys after he's grown, so did God put away the miraculous signs that were used to support the church in its infancy. With revelation finally delivered and confirmed, miracles only held the people back. The first century church was eventually weaned off of miracles as an infant is weaned off his mother's milk. The Old Testament wanderings of Israel are proof to the outcome of a generation that is always in need of miracles.
Please note that this end of miracles was to occur before the end of time. Paul states:
Paul wrote:"And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." (I Corinthians 13:13)
These miraculous things were coming to a close, but in contrast "faith, hope, and love" were continuing to abide. These 3 things were to abide past the miracles, the childish things. However, faith and hope will end when Jesus comes, faith becomes sight, and hope becomes reality. If these things were to abide past miracles, and they end when Jesus comes, then they must end before Jesus returns.
Zechariah also prophesied of this:
Zechariah wrote:"It shall come to pass that if anyone still prophesies, then his father and mother who begot him will say to him, 'You shall not live, because you have spoken lies in the name of the LORD.' And his father and mother who begot him shall thrust him through when he prophesies. And it shall be in that day that every prophet will be ashamed of his vision when he prophesies; they will not wear a robe of coarse hair to deceive." (Zechariah 13:3-4)
Please note this was to happen during the "day of the Lord", which included:
Zechariah wrote:"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo." (Zechariah 12:10-11)
This prophecy foretold of the Messianic reign, but it also told of the end of prophecy, which would come to pass at its close, along with the destruction of Jerusalem and saving of the saints. This was something that occurred a long time ago!
I hope this explanation of these verses will be helpful.
Additionally, the ability to work miracles was generally conferred through the laying on of apostle's hands (
Acts 8:4-17; Acts 8:14-20; Acts 19:1-6; Romans 1:9-11; II Timothy 1:6). Without any apostles left, how could this happen today? If you are thinking of baptism of the Holy Spirit, please examine the article on our web-site entitled, "Which Baptism?". I believes this argument is refuted there.
I realize that I have given you a lot for you to "chew on". I do not expect you to respond immediately. In fact, I would be disappointed if you did. Please take your time pondering these things, closely examining the Scriptures. I believe the long answer to our correspondence is contained herein.
Thanks again for your much appreciated patience in both wading through this text and patiently awaiting its arrival.
May God bless us unto the truth.