Falling from Grace

Is Calvinism taught in the Bible? Does man have free-will? Can a Christian apostatize? Discuss all related questions here.

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Falling from Grace

Post by email » Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:26 pm

I just read your article on Falling from Grace.

How will we know when we become "unsaved"? Once we are saved, we will continue to still sin, and we might not remember or know of every sin we commit, to be able to ask for forgiveness of every specific sin.

How exactly can a person become saved? Is it a specific prayer that someone has to pray out loud? Is it an exact phrase that we have to repeat, as well as meaning it in our hearts while we pray it? How will someone know that they are saved? Is it some kind of feeling that they get, when they become saved? Will they be completely free from the bondages of sin, and never sin anymore?
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Falling from Grace

Post by m273p15c » Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:24 pm

Thanks for the good questions! I have inserted some answers below. Please let me know what you think. :-)
How will we know when we become "unsaved"?
Part of the answer to this question ultimately lies in God's hands. God does not personally come to us and tell us, "Hey, you are now 'unsaved'". And, we have no way to check our status with Him on a minute by minute basis. Instead, He uses means to indirectly warn us of our error:
  1. Other Christians - Part of the reason for assembling with other saints is to "exhort one another" ... "to stir up love and good works" (Hebrews 10:24-25). It is an obligation and blessing for each Christian to help other Christians avoid error and repent from sin:

    Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. (James 5:19-20)

    Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. (Galatians 6:1)

    And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. (Jude 1:23-24)
  2. The Church - The church is made of people, so this overlaps with mechanism #1; however, Christ specifically organized the church and equipped it with offices (apostles, elders, prophets) to help it mature and avoid error (Ephesians 4:11-16). People in these offices, specifically elders for today, carry an additional burden of opportunity to help those who have been overcome by sin.
  3. The Scriptures - Christians are to be diligent students of the Bible (II Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17), because it contains God's will for us, which we can understand if will but earnestly read (Ephesians 3:3-5). God's Scriptures are the ultimate revealer of our error (Hebrews 4:12). It serves as a mirror, showing us things that must be corrected (James 1:18, 22-25). In fact, other Christians and officers of the church help us by showing Scriptures to us (I Peter 4:11). The wisdom they employ should be what is given by God in the Bible - not their own wisdom (I Corinthians 2:1-5).
  4. Providential Punishment - One must be very careful here, but I will mention it for completeness. In fact, this point can be a slippery slope, leading to subjective interpretation of personal events. Regardless of the danger, the Bible is clear that God sometimes uses events to chasten us, and help us wake up!

    Before I was afflicted I went astray, But now I keep Your word. ... It is good for me that I have been afflicted, That I may learn Your statutes. (Psalm 119:67, 71)

    That being said, one cannot interpret every bad event as a sign of God's disapproval or rejection. For example, the book of Job is the recording of a godly man who was tempted and tortured mercilessly by the Devil, and yet the entire book records the argument between Job's friends as to whether or not Job had sinned and merited this punishment from God. You see, both parties assumed God brought this punishment on Job, but it was really the Devil's fault. Therefore, we cannot really determine if difficulties are a message from God, because it could be a message from the Devil! (For example, the Devil's message could be, "You are a recognized servant of God; therefore, I will try to cause you to sin and be destroyed!"). Wise Solomon recognized that difficulty in interpreting life's events as follows:

    When I applied my heart to know wisdom and to see the business that is done on earth, even though one sees no sleep day or night, then I saw all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun. For though a man labors to discover it, yet he will not find it; moreover, though a wise man attempts to know it, he will not be able to find it. For I considered all this in my heart, so that I could declare it all: that the righteous and the wise and their works are in the hand of God. People know neither love nor hatred by anything they see before them. All things come alike to all: One event happens to the righteous and the wicked; To the good, the clean, and the unclean; To him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As is the good, so is the sinner; He who takes an oath as he who fears an oath. (Ecclesiastes 8:16-9:2)

    Death and difficulties befall all men, so it is impossible to determine God's disposition toward us, without Him revealing it. I am sure you are wondering, "So, what's the point?!" :-) Well, Solomon said we could not know God's disposition, but we could use such occasions as a "wake up call" - an occasion to pause, consider, and self-examine (which is always admonished as a good practice in the New Testament, see II Corinthians 13:5). We may turn up nothing, as did Job. However, we should at least pause and consider carefully, so that we might benefit as did David in Psalm 119:67, 71, if possible. Solomon offers his advice on the matter here:

    In the day of prosperity be joyful, But in the day of adversity consider: Surely God has appointed the one as well as the other, So that man can find out nothing that will come after him. (Ecclesiastes 7:14)
Finally, please recall that God is not a cruel or capricious God, looking to "unsave" everyone possible. He wants all to be saved!
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)
Lastly, keep in mind that these mechanisms are not meant to warn us of being "unsaved". They are meant to warn us of sin! Any sin can lead to eternal death, if we stubbornly refuse to repent. More below...

Please read more about God's desire to forgive and save us here:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/forgives.html

Keep in mind, God never told someone directly how to be saved, even by angel. He always used a human messenger (II Corinthians 4:5-7; Acts 22:6-16; 10:1-6, 34-38; 8:26-40). The Holy Spirit just ensured that the right people were in the right place at the right time. ;-) Why? Because He wants all to be saved! :-)
Once we are saved, we will continue to still sin, and we might not remember or know of every sin we commit, to be able to ask for forgiveness of every specific sin.
Yes, that's very true. However, God gives us a means to receive forgiveness, after we have first been saved:
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (I John 1:9)

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (I John 2:1-2)
Even after we are converted, we can continue to access the redeeming power of Jesus' sacrifice by simply praying to God, confessing our sins, which implies we are seeking forgiveness.

What if you cannot remember a sin? What if you do not know you have sinned? Keeping in mind that we are dealing with a loving and merciful God, it should not surprise us to learn that He will help us recall our sin or learn of our unknown error:
Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. (Philippians 3:15)
Somehow, God will reveal our forgotten or unknown errors to us, providing us an opportunity to repent. Someone may ask, "What if He does not?" Well, then that is God's concern. I can only offer what He has promised. We have to trust God to keep His promises, since that is the very test of faith. ... In the meantime, I personally pray for forgiveness of all my sins, but I also repent of specific sins as I realize them. ... Keep in mind, we are discussing forgiveness after conversion. Repenting of sins prior to conversion is discussed next...

How will God do this? Well, He certainly can use all the means provided in the first question. Beyond that, I trust Him to work it out. ;-)
How exactly can a person become saved?
An introduction to this crucial, crucial topic is provided in this article:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/salvation.html

Please read it, because many false doctrines are taught regarding the means of salvation.
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (I John 4:1)

Test all things; hold fast what is good. (I Thessalonians 5:21)
I can think of no greater danger than to swallow false doctrine on the basis for salvation!

In summary, one must:
  1. Hear the gospel, which is essentially that Jesus came from heaven, lived a perfect life, demonstrated God's very character, died on the cross, was resurrected, ascended, and now commands all men to be saved by His name (Romans 10:17; I Timothy 3:16).
  2. Believe the gospel, that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, based on the evidence recorded in Scripture (John 20:30-31; John 3:16).
  3. Repent of your sins, which means you are sorry and stop doing them (Acts 2:37-38; Luke 13:3, 5).
  4. Confess Jesus as your Lord and the Son of God (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 10:32-33).
  5. Be baptized in water, by the name of Jesus, for the remission of your sins (Acts 2:37-38; 10:47-48; Mark 16:15-16; Matthew 28:19-20).
Many may dispute this very simply plan, which plan is approved by the number of conversions recorded in the book of Acts. However, human theology not withstanding, God's Scriptures are plain, unless one brings a prejudice to the Scripture.

After this, each one beings a new life, devoted to Christ (Romans 6:1-4). We try to think and act as He would have us act (Colossians 3:1-10; Romans 12:1-2). However, this is a growth process that takes time (I John 3:1-3). The final result is not produced overnight, although we are immediately accounted in God's kingdom once we are saved, which is culminated in baptism (Acts 2:37-41, 47; Colossians 1:9-14; Galatians 3:26-27). Perfection is guaranteed in heaven, although we may not see it here (Jude 1:4; Hebrews 12:22-23; I Thessalonians 5:23-24).
Is it a specific prayer that someone has to pray out loud? Is it an exact phrase that we have to repeat, as well as meaning it in our hearts while we pray it?
No specific prayer. Men have invented a prayer and said that praying it sincerely brings about salvation; however, neither that prayer nor promise is recorded anywhere in Scripture. The composite pattern, instruction, and doctrine given in Scripture includes the 5 elements listed above.
How will someone know that they are saved? Is it some kind of feeling that they get, when they become saved?
No, there is no feeling, experience, or event that testifies to your salvation. However, like the Ethiopian who heard Stephen's preaching on Jesus, and who then believed, repented, confessed, and was baptized, you too can go on your way rejoicing that you have been saved (Acts 8:30-39) So, yes, strong, heartfelt, and thankful emotions may overwhelm you as you arise from the waters of baptism, but these emotions arise from your belief that God will keep His promise and save you - not because God directly operates on your heart, forcing some miraculous and emotional experience. Emotionalism (which is an over-emphasis upon emotions and trusting in them for guidance) is generally rejected by Scripture (Acts 28:26). God's communication generally comes from the revealed and miraculously confirmed words of the apostles and prophets (Hebrews 2:1-4). Studying and believing these words will produce the confidence, comfort, and peace we seek (I Thessalonians 4:18; Philippians 4:4-7).

Furthermore, God provides a few different metrics by which we may test ourselves to confirm that we are saved and pleasing to Him. Please read more about it here:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... saved.html

Keep in mind, God intended us to know that we have been saved. The first epistle of John (I John) was written to communicate and explain that very point, among other concerns...
Will they be completely free from the bondages of sin, and never sin anymore?
Uhhm, yes and no. The saved are completely free from the bondage of sin. Sin no longer holds the fear of death and hell over their head (Romans 6:23; Hebrews 2:13-14). Furthermore, they now have the power to cease from sin (Romans 6:16-22; II Corinthians 10:3-5; Ephesians 6:10-18; James 4:6-8), and they are obligated to avoid sin (Romans 6:1-23). However, Christians often do sin once they have been saved (I John 2:1-2; Acts 8:9-24; Galatians 2:11-14). Thankfully, they have a means to obtain forgiveness, as was examined in a previous answer: Confess our sins and pray for forgiveness (I John 1:5-2:2).

I realize this is a lengthy answer, and I may have still not answered all of your questions. However, I would encourage you to read this a few times until it makes sense, and I would especially exhort you to study your Bible so that you may verify what I have said. The Scriptures commend the example of the Bereans who double-checked the apostle Paul (Acts 17:11). Now if it was good for them to double-check the preaching of an inspired apostle, you certainly should double-check me, not being inspired. Plus, you will learn much more than I could communicate by looking at the context of each passage. Ultimately, the Scriptures should be your final guide (Psalm 119:97-105). I am just a guide to help jump start you (Acts 8:30-35). :-)

Please let me know what you think. Whatever other questions or concerns you have, please let me know. I can assure you that the Scriptures contain a consistent and truthful question to every question.

Well, I have to run to worship services. I look forward to hearing from you soon! :-)

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth above all else,

m273p15c
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)

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RE: Falling from Grace

Post by email » Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:12 pm

Thanks for the detailed reply. This kind of detail (like so many others) can divide people and their belief stucture.

I realize that Satan is the master deceiver and tries everything to confuse. This issue is definitely very controversial. I wouldn't keep hearkening back to something as "Calvinist" as necessarily being wrong. From what I gather in the Scripture is that yes, Christians can fall by the wayside to great and utter despair. But I don't see where God will ever leave them or forsake them, once they have been born again. The wayward Christian may not have as many riches stored up in Heaven as would a Billy Graham-type person.

No one can really know or judge if someone is truly saved. But here is a story. What if someone was searching for the truth since he was very young, but never really seeming to find it. He heard that someone had to be good to get to heaven, but realized that he sinned every day...and couldn't stop sinning. He went to a few different denominations of churches, never to be fulfilled or enlightened. Then one day, during an alter call at a church that he attended for the first time, he JUMPED at the chance to go forward. (while not really knowing what he was doing) He went forward, prayed a prayer, (that he completely forgets what he said) and was baptized. Afterwards, someone asked him how he felt to be saved. He had no idea what that person was talking about. Was he saved?
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Re: Falling from Grace

Post by m273p15c » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:12 pm

Yes, detailed answers can generate some strife, but they are only revealing what was already there - differences of belief, attitude, and practice. Plus, I prefer to follow Peter's advice and provide a little extra "detail":
If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (I Peter 4:11)
If I cannot give book, chapter, and verse for my opinions, then they remain just that - opinions of men. All matters could be resolved, and division would cease, if we would trust the Scriptures by using them to settle matters. I pray that in our corner of the world - at least you and I can do that. ... Now on to your new questions... :-)
I realize that Satan is the master deceiver and tries everything to confuse. This issue is definitely very controversial. I wouldn't keep hearkening back to something as "Calvinist" as necessarily being wrong. From what I gather in the Scripture is that yes, Christians can fall by the wayside to great and utter despair. But I don't see where God will ever leave them or forsake them, once they have been born again. The wayward Christian may not have as many riches stored up in Heaven as would a Billy Graham-type person.
Well, yes, you are right. I do not disagree with everything Calvin said, just because he said it. Rather, I do not believe his doctrine summarized as "once saved, always saved", simply because I cannot support it from the Bible. Unless we can find Scripture for any doctrine, why would one hold to a belief in the face of contradictory Scriptures? For example, let us consider more closely the idea of "levels in heaven".

First, what Scripture supports there being multiple "levels" of reward in heaven? To borrow a page from your book: Where does the Bible describe the process of falling from one level to another? How does one know when he has been downgraded? How can he get back to his upgraded status? Where are the Scriptures that support this model? ... I realize that the belief is an essential add-on to prop up this crumbling tenet of Calvinism, but outside of one's theology requiring it, where is the Bible basis for such a notion? I only read of one reward, heaven. I cannot find mention of various levels anywhere. If you show them to me, you would be my friend. :-)

Second, what do you think of the following Scriptures, which suggest that one can be lost?
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)
Can one be saved if they are "estranged, severed, cut off" from Christ? Is there salvation outside of Christ (Acts 4:12)? Is there salvation apart from grace (Romans 3:24)? So, then how were these Galatians still saved? Please note, they had become and had fallen (sic) from this previous status. This was not a case of someone falling away, who had only been playing the hypocrite. These people had enjoyed both grace and a relationship with Christ. Do you believe that more is needed for salvation?
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire." (II Peter 2:20-22)
Again, by forcing ourselves to study the passage carefully, we encounter several difficulties: How could the end be worse for such a person than the beginning? They were lost before being converted, correct? And now, they are saved, but yet somehow they are in a worse condition? Please explain. Notice they were "entangled and overcome". They were not merely despairing or weighed down, but overcome. This is very reminiscent of Jesus' parable of the sower and 4 types of ground, especially the thorny ground (Matthew 13:18-23). Were those people saved, even though they were choked out?

Here is the most essential point with which I hope and pray you will wrestle: Calvinism, including the statements you have made, sound very consistent and appealing. My experience with Calvinists is that they generally have answers for everything. Most are very familiar with their theology and have well thought out and answered many questions. For this, I admire and appreciate them. However, that is not enough! Anybody can develop a self-consistent theology, especially if multiple people whittle on it for 300+ years. But, we must ask, "Is the the theology consistent with the Bible, all of it?" ! This is the test you and I must face. If we cannot reconcile our beliefs with the Scriptures, then our beliefs are invalid - period. Otherwise, we establish a new standard outside of the Bible.

Please review your beliefs and answers. Are they rooted in Scripture or an abstract theology? How many verses are you using to support your beliefs? How are you dealing with contradictory Scriptures?

Remember, the Holy Spirit commended the Bereans for double-checking the inspired apostle Paul (Acts 17:11), so should not we double check our uninspired beliefs with the Scripture? As kindly, lovingly, and earnestly as I know how, I ask, "Please give me book, chapter, and verse."

Incidentally, just because a person falls away, it would be a mistake to understand that God has abandoned them (Luke 22:32-34).
No one can really know or judge if someone is truly saved.
True, that is left up to Jesus (John 5:22-23; II Timothy 4:1). We would be leaving "our proper habitation" to undertake such a task (James 4:11-12). However, one can know if he personally is saved (I John 5:13 - please see previous note for detailed defense).
But here is a story. What if someone was searching for the truth since he was very young, but never really seeming to find it. He heard that someone had to be good to get to heaven, but realized that he sinned every day...and couldn't stop sinning. He went to a few different denominations of churches, never to be fulfilled or enlightened. Then one day, during an alter call at a church that he attended for the first time, he JUMPED at the chance to go forward. (while not really knowing what he was doing) He went forward, prayed a prayer, (that he completely forgets what he said) and was baptized. Afterwards, someone asked him how he felt to be saved. He had no idea what that person was talking about. Was he saved?
Your story has two compelling questions, although one you did not ask. ... Will God ensure that truthseekers find the truth? I believe the answer is an overwhelming, yes. Based on His character (II Peter 3:9; Romans 2:4), on His track record for ensuring that seeking souls found a teacher (Acts 8:26-39; 9:1-18; 10:1-6; 18:9-11, etc...), on His already making the supreme and greater sacrifice (Romans 8:32), and on His promise (Matthew 7:7-11), I believe there will not be anybody who will slip through the cracks in God's hands! The question for you is, "Do you believe God will allow your story to happen?" "Will God let someone go through his whole life, wanting to know the truth, but yet always be deprived of the opportunity to learn the real truth?"

Now, in regards to the final salvation of the person in your story, I need some additional info before I can answer. Since you invented the story, please tell me, did the person know what he was doing or not? Was he operating on the truth or not?

We know faith is required to please God, so if you tell me that the person did not really have faith, then you have your answer (Hebrews 11:6). If you are telling me that the person had genuine faith, which would require that he knew what he was doing (Romans 10:17), and he later fell away, then you know what I believe already. Beyond that, I am not really sure what you are asking. If you do not mind clarifying, I would be happy to answer more fully. ... I am happy to answer hypothetical questions, but ultimately I do not think they serve our mutual purpose of communicating and testing ideas against the Scripture, because hypothetical cases generally require so much refinement before one can actually answer. Even then, our place is not to judge one's salvation but preach the gospel, so it's context is still skewed and awkward at best, which hampers communication.

Regardless, I think it is crucial that we ultimately move from the realm of the hypothetical to the personal -- What about you and me? Have we done what the Scriptures require for our salvation?

What do you think? Or asked more rightly, "How do you read?" I look forward to hearing from you soon!

May God help us to brave open eyes,

m273p15c
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)

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RE: Falling from Grace

Post by email » Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:10 am

People are people, and we can fall into a rut of being stubborn, combative, and thinking we are right. However you want to put it, semantically. The many different denominations of churches attests to that. Christians can't even seem to be free of divisions, yet they all claim to be right (there are even denominations within denominations) From my opinion, I have known Baptists to claim to have all the answers, much like you say that Calvinists do. And, as far as quoting Scripture to back-up your claims, Satan does that as well. Remeber, a little child can sometimes be wiser than the wisest of elders or teachers.

One thing that I want to point out. I believe that this verse you quoted:
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)
is talking about the sin nature of man. When we are born, if anyone of us was to never sin, then he wouldn't fall from grace. But unfortunately, everyone has.

As far as "levels" of heaven go, here is the verse I was talking about. “lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.” To me, it sounds like if we are good Christians, winning souls for him etc. there will be rewards in heaven.

And what about this?

Hebrews 12:16-17 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

The last phrase of this verse is usually stressed heavily in order to show how Esau plead with God for forgiveness, but “God turned a deaf ear to his cry, and spurned his petition.” Does this mean that God won't save everyone who asks for forgiveness.
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Re: Falling from Grace

Post by m273p15c » Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:15 pm

I appreciate you including Scriptures in your response. I look forward to answering them below:
People are people, and we can fall into a rut of being stubborn, combative, and thinking we are right. However you want to put it, semantically. The many different denominations of churches attests to that. Christians can't even seem to be free of divisions, yet they all claim to be right (there are even denominations within denominations) From my opinion, I have known Baptists to claim to have all the answers, much like you say that Calvinists do. And, as far as quoting Scripture to back-up your claims, Satan does that as well. Remeber, a little child can sometimes be wiser than the wisest of elders or teachers.
I must admit that I fail to see your point. Are you trying to suggest that we cannot understand the Bible alike or that this is a hopeless endeavor? Paul said that:
... how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets (Ephesians 3:3-5)
Therefore, if we cannot understand the Bible, whose fault would that be? God's fault or our fault?

Yes, division does exist, and many people are claiming to be right; however, that eliminates neither the obligation nor possibility to be right. In fact, God commands us to eliminate division on the level of the local church, and Jesus prayed for global unity:
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (I Corinthians 1:10-13)

I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
(John 20:20-23)
Jesus states that He had given glory to the apostles and us ("those who will believe in Me through their word"), which glory would enable us to be united as one ("given them, that hey may be one just as We are one"). Looking at the context, let us consider, "What is that "glory" "? The context seems to firmly support that "glory" was the words given to the apostles by Jesus, which would constitute the Bible, and which were originally given to Him by the Father (John 17:4, 6, 7, 8, 13, 14, 17, 19, 20). Consequently, Jesus and God planned that the Bible, God's Word, would be the very vehicle to bring about our unity! Therefore, we should spend less time disparaging it and more time studying it; otherwise, we will not be part of that one!

Finally, Satan did quote Scripture, but notice how Jesus corrected Him:
Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.' " Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.' " (Matthew 4:5-7)
Did Jesus say, "Ahh, stalemate! We both managed to quote a Scripture!" ? Or, did Jesus back up and try another technique, since the Devil used Scripture? No, Jesus continued to use Scripture. In fact, He used Scripture to show that Satan mishandled it. And therein lies our goal and obligation: To pull together enough Scripture to weed out ideas that contradict with Scripture as a whole. Yes, anybody can quote a verse out of context, but it should be relatively easy to find a verse contradicting it, showing it as a misinterpretation. In contrast, the truth will be consistent with all Scriptures and contradictory to none (Titus 1:2). In fact, being able to use the Scriptures and point out contradictions with it, is both the way and requirement for an elder to rebuke the false teacher (Titus 1:2, 9-11). Granted, there are some passages, which are "difficult to understand" (II Peter 3:15-17); however, they are not impossible to understand, and with some diligence, we should be able to understand them (II Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17; Ephesians 3:3-5).

Therefore, I would happily quote Scripture, being thankful for the opportunity. Otherwise, we would be stuck trying to battle this out using our own wits. Thankfully, by carefully using Scripture, we can together turn to God and learn His will on the matter!
One thing that I want to point out. I believe that this verse you quoted:
> You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)>
is talking about the sin nature of man. When we are born, if anyone of us was to never sin, then he wouldn't fall from grace. But unfortunately, everyone has.
Thanks for responding to this passage. I understand what you are saying, but I believe the context does not support that interpretation.
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law .
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
(Galatians 5:1-4)
Although we are all born innoccent and fall from that innocence by sin (Romans 7:7-11), this initial condtion is not regarded as one of grace. In contrast, one who never sins is regarded as one justified by "works" or "law", which is in contrast to God's system of grace (Romans 4:1-8; Galatians 3:1-ff). Therefore, the proposed interpretation contradicts the common usage of "grace" in Scripture, and must be untrue. Furthermore, the immediate context, quoted above, speaks of these people previously being free in Christ and warns of them being entangled again. In fact, the contrast in this very passage is between "law" and "grace". Those who are seeking redemption by following the law (the Law of Moses) have abandoned redemption by grace (Christ's New Covenant). Since this passage clearly refers to these people as being made free, and since it warns of being entangled again, it cannot possibly refer to people who have never sinned and are only now coming under the bondage of sin.

If you see any support for your proposed interpretation, or if you see that my interpretation contradicts the context, please let me know.
As far as "levels" of heaven go, here is the verse I was talking about. "lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal." To me, it sounds like if we are good Christians, winning souls for him etc. there will be rewards in heaven.
I will concede that there may be varying degrees of reward in heaven. For example, Paul may enjoy richer blessings than I. I am open to that idea, if it can be shown in Scripture. Unfortunately, I do not think this verse will accomplish that goal. Here's the broader context for reference:
16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
17 "But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face,
18 "so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal;
20 " but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.
21 "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light.
23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
(Matthew 6:16-25)
Generally, Jesus is here admonishing us to not have a materialistic outlook. Our focus should not be the acquiring of men's esteem or earthly wealth. In the middle of this point is the verse you referenced. I confess that the verse implies there may be multiple blessings in heaven as opposed to a single blessing. This idea is easy to imagine and realize. Will we not enjoy being with God, Jesus, the Spirit, and thousands of saints and angels beyond number? What about no tears, no sin, no illness, no evil, no darkness...? Would not each of these things constitute a blessing? Therefore, we might enjoy thousands of blessings in heaven. Consequently, I would not dispute that there are multiple "treasures" in heaven, but that is not the point of the passage.

The summary verse shows us the point: "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Notice that Jesus speaks of a treasure, singular. Therefore, His point does not regard the amount, mechanism for acquiring, or degree of reward. His point is for us to set our hearts on heaven! The lack of consistency in plurality indicates that we are stretching the verse beyond its original intention to use it as a proof-text for differing degrees of reward.

Furthermore, where does this verse say that there will be differing levels of reward? At best, the verse only teaches that there are multiple treasures in heaven. Can you show from the text that these treasures are laid up one at a time, based on individual action, versus being laid up all at once in a single action? Can you show that one person gets one reward, while someone else gets a different reward? I think we have to be very careful of not bringing our prejudices to interpret verses like this; otherwise, we see much more than is really there.

Actually, the parable of the denarius seems to suggest that everyone will receive the same reward. In it, everyone receives the same single denarius, regardless if they began the day's work at dawn, noon, or afternoon. They all got paid the same regardless (Matthew 20:1-16)! Would that not suggest the same reward regardless of effort?

Finally, even if one was able to prove there are varying levels of possible, personal reward in heaven, the verses that show the possibility of apostasy use phrases that cannot apply to any form of heaven:
  • "estranged from Christ" (Galatians 5:4) - Can one be saved or enjoy heaven apart from Christ?
  • "fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4) - Can one be saved apart from grace?
  • "disqualified" (I Corinthians 9:27) - not fearful that he might "miss first place", nor "settle for second", but "disqualified" from the race altogether
  • "an evil heart of unbelief departing from the living God" (Hebrews 3:12-13) - Can one be saved or enjoy heaven apart from God? Can on be saved with an evil heart? Can one be saved with out belief, or faith?
  • "lest we drift away" by "neglecting so great a salvation" (sic - Hebrews 2:1-3) - Verse suggests we will be unable to escape receiving a just reward for every transgression and reward through this same neglection, which does not sound like heaven!
  • "faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck " (I Timothy 1:19) - Can one be saved without a faith (Hebrews 11:6)?
  • "again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. ... better for them not to have known the way of righteousness" (II Peter 2:20-22)
The real problem that must be confronted are the above passages, which indicate much more than just a reduction of reward. They indicate complete apostasy and rejection. Even if there are multiple levels of heaven, this cannot be used to explain the above passages.
And what about this?

Hebrews 12:16-17 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

The last phrase of this verse is usually stressed heavily in order to show how Esau plead with God for forgiveness, but "God turned a deaf ear to his cry, and spurned his petition." Does this mean that God won't save everyone who asks for forgiveness.
No. Remember, Esau did not cry after he sold his birthright (Genesis 25:29-34). He cried after his judgment was handed down (Genesis 27:30-35). Likewise, if someone waits until judgment day to repent, it will be too late (Matthew 7:21-23; Hebrews 3:7-4:13; 9:27). As an example, the story of the rich man and Lazarus contains the only positive fulfillment to your question: After death and in torments, many people will regret their choices and seek forgiveness, but judgment will have already been sealed. Then, and only then, will it be too late (Luke 16:19-31)!

Generally, as long as people live, they have opportunity to repent. As two extreme examples, if Paul, who was originally a murderer, persecutor, and torturer of Christians, can be saved, then cannot anybody? In fact, Jesus used Paul as an example of us His tremendous longsuffering (I Timothy 1:12-16). How about the Jews who crucified Jesus? Can we do worse than they? Yet, they were able to be saved (Acts 2:36-41)! I know of no case ever recorded in Scripture, where someone was denied salvation who submitted themselves to God. There is nothing to suggest that the truly penitent, diligent believer will be kept away from salvation. In fact, God's character suggests the very opposite (I Timothy 2:4; II Peter 3:9; Acts 17:26-27).

However, the Scriptures are very clear regarding the danger of delay. One can only push off conversion by hardening his heart. Every time one hardens his heart, it becomes more difficult and less likely that he will later repent. As more time passes in defiant rebellion, the less likely it will be that he will want to repent (Hebrews 6:4-8; 3:7-4:13). At some point, it will be impossible for him to repent, because he has so severely seared his conscience (I Timothy 4:1-2). In this regard, we can prevent ourselves from being saved. This is getting into blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is beyond the scope of your question, but I think it was worthy of a footnote, none the less. :-)

Lastly, I realize this is a bit long, but if I could answer your questions more succinctly, I would. This is the very reason why diligence is required in studying the Scriptures (II Timothy 2:15; I Timothy 4:13, 15-16). It takes time to work through the detailed results of comparing our beliefs to Scripture as a whole. I pray that we will both stick with this, so that we may both receive the reward. ;-)

Please let me know "how you read". I look forward to hearing from you again soon,

May God help us to love Him supremely,

m273p15c--
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RE: Falling from Grace

Post by email » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:34 am

I'm afraid to say this...but I'm not sure that you are being an example of a good Christian, but instead a good example of a Pharisee (...who might have easily fell under the denomination of "Free Will Baptist", in this day and age) who just wants to be right, and thinks they are aways right. You are very argumentative and stubborn, and even though you are quoting lots of Scripture, I believe you are quoting Scripture out of context. It is quite possible. You are only human...remember that. You sin every day still, and can easily be wrong.

And unfortunately, you seem to be acting like a stereotypical American. (Even though you may not be. I have no idea) Please take a look at yourself. I actually feel pity for you, and pray that God would help guide you and give peace to your troubled soul.

Sincerely
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Re: Falling from Grace

Post by m273p15c » Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:24 pm

You could be right. I might be another modern day Pharisee. I face that possibility constantly. Therefore, I pray to God every day to open my eyes to every error, fault, or sin I may possess. If you are right, then I trust that the Lord will open my eyes, just as He opened an ancient Pharisee's eyes on the road to Damascus (Acts 9, 22; Philippians 3:3-8). Until that day, I do the best I can, operating on what I can read in the Bible and understand from it. I study with many others, like you, and do my best to honestly, openly, and thoroughly consider every word and argument they present. I visit every verse, reading it over and over again, examining the context, and saying a silent prayer to understand each and every word of God's, so that I may learn and see exactly what God wants me to see. Although each prayer may not be immediately answered, I have faith that every prayer will ultimately be answered, because He has so promised (Matthew 7:7-11).

I have prayed many times about this correspondence. Who knows maybe I was meant to be a Phillip, Annanias, or Peter sent to you (Acts 8:26-30; 9:6-18; 10:1-6, 30-33, 47-48)? Consequently, I have pushed myself as hard as I humanly can, so that I might be a help to you if I can, while leaving the rest up to God. I probably cannot help, but I do not know until it is all over, and I dare not take that chance for your sake. Make no mistake. If my understanding is correct, our salvation may very well hang in the balance. Realizing that, maybe you can understand both my persistence and concern for this matter. I have pushed you only because I care for you.

But, I do not presume that I am right. You might be the one sent to play the role of Phillip, Ananias, or Peter, sent to remove "the scales from my eyes". You believe that I am taking these verses out of context; therefore, you might very well could be that teacher I so desperately need! It is very possible! So, what I do not understand is how you could walk away from me, in my hour of greatest need, since you feel pity for me? Show me how these verses are taken out of context and save me (James 5:19-20)! Please do not say that I am wrong and not show me how or why. Please show me. Is it not reasonable that I not settle on your belief based on your word alone? Would you simply take my word for it, if the roles were reversed?

Why are you really exiting this discussion? Do you think that I am not worth the effort? Are you afraid that I will not fit into one of the neat little boxes, in which you keep trying to stuff me? Are you afraid to take a chance of possibly realizing that you might be in error? Are you troubled that closer inspection will reveal that you are the one who is taking verses out of context? Do you fear that I will tear through your personal belief system that comforts you, leaving you without peace? Why are you walking away? ... I can assure you this: If you fear that I might destroy something you have, it is only because I am trying to offer you something that is real and infinitely more valuable. We never need be afraid, if we are sincerely seeking the truth.

Maybe you think I am a hard-headed, hopeless case. That is fair. I walk away from some discussions thinking that, while wiping the dust off my feet. However, just make sure that you are not using that as an excuse to soothe your conscience and cover up the real reason.

I cannot know your heart, and I do not presume to know. However, I owe you much more than just walking away without trying...

May God help us both to have a sincere love for Him, each other, and the truth,

m273p15c
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RE: Falling from Grace

Post by email » Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:23 pm

Dear m273p15c,

Thank you for your continued interest in further discussions, but I have chosen to not read any more of your e-mails, which included this last one.

God bless!
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RE: Falling from Grace

Post by email » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:20 pm

Looking back on your explanation it seems very vague. Like you are avoiding the questions. What if I put it to you like this instead?
1. Please explain to me how someone can enter Heaven when he dies?

2. When someone gains entrance to Heaven, can they lose it? And if so, how exactly can they lose entrance to Heaven? (if you can explain exactly how someone can gain entrance to Heaven then you should be able to explain to me exactly how someone can lose their entrance to Heaven)

3. Can someone gain entrance to Heaven and lose it multiple times in a day?

4. How many times is someone allowed to lose entrance and gain entrance back to Heaven?

5. Is it a matter of a set amount of good works vs. evil works that a Christian does that will decide whether he gains entrance to Heaven?

6. If so...how much good works must a Christian do to enter Heaven? (for example: fifty one percent?)

7. Or is there a mysterious amount of good works that each individual Christian needs to achieve before he gains entrance to Heaven?

8.Or is it one mysterious sin that someone commits that makes them lose entrance to Heaven.

The way you make it sound, it is so easy to lose your salvation and also very vague and uncertain as to how someone can lose their salvation. A Christian may never know if he "crossed the line". It sounds like we are relying on our own works and ourselves to gain entrance to heaven. If it relies on us being good (or a set amount of good) then odds are none of us will enter heaven. It's almost a matter of luck. Someone might say to themselves "I sure hope I did enough good works or that I didn't do the wrong thing to lose my salvation" It also sounds like you are saying that Jesus' death and blood aren't enough to forgive everything.

And when it comes to baptism being needed for salvation...I guess that the thief on the cross was out of luck. He sure couldn't be baptized.

And by the way. Esau, he was not truly repentant and did not want forgiveness...he just wanted his birthright back. He sought forgiveness "carefully with tears". He was not genuine. (ever seen a child cry because he wanted something..not because he was sorry?)

If God truly does love us I'm certain that He would have made a truly simple plan for all of us. We are only human, and as a fallen race with Satan trying everything he can do to fool us and divide us, we really do need a simple plan...and plan that we can have assurance from, not from our own nature.

Sincerely
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Falling from Grace

Post by m273p15c » Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:38 pm

It's good to hear from you again.

I noticed that you picked up with my first response to your original question, apparently overlooking where our previous conversation left off. For your convenience, I have recompiled the entire thread and included it below for your reference. In all fairness, I believe you need to first address the questions I left you with.

However, I am happy to answer these new questions too, because I am deeply concerned for you:
email wrote:Looking back on your explanation it seems very vague. Like you are avoiding the questions. What if I put it to you like this instead?
I am sorry. I don't intend to be vague. I felt I answered every question you gave me as clearly as possible. Please reread our past discussion and study all the referenced verses with an open heart.
email wrote:1. Please explain to me how someone can enter Heaven when he dies?
By adhering to God's requirements for salvation:
  1. Hearing the gospel (Romans 10:14-17; II Thessalonians 2:14; Romans 1:16).
  2. Believe the gospel (Mark 16:15-16)
  3. Repent from your past sins (Acts 2:37-38)
  4. Confess your sins and Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God (Romans 10:9-10)
  5. Be baptized for the remission of your sins (Acts 2:37-38; Romans 6:1-6)
  6. Remaining faithful unto death (Revelation 2:10)
The book of Acts contains many examples of conversion. The Ethiopian eunuch is one example that contains all of these points (Acts 8:26-40). You can find a summary chart of many of the examples of New Testament conversion here:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/salvation.html
email wrote:2. When someone gains entrance to Heaven, can they lose it? And if so, how exactly can they lose entrance to Heaven? (if you can explain exactly how someone can gain entrance to Heaven then you should be able to explain to me exactly how someone can lose their entrance to Heaven)
Yes. Please see previous discussions for proof. Articles on this point are available here:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/apostasy.html
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... aints.html

People may lose their salvation by not remaining faithful. They may fall away by committing various sins (Acts 8:12-13, 18-24; I Corinthians 6:9-10), adhering to false doctrines (Galatians 5:1-4; I Corinthians 15:12-17), teaching false doctrines (II Timothy 2:17-19).
email wrote:3. Can someone gain entrance to Heaven and lose it multiple times in a day?
Simon the sorcerer heard the gospel, believed, was baptized, was saved, fell away, and was restored in one day (Acts 8:12-13, 18-24). Beyond that it is a test of man's heart, not God's patience.
email wrote:4. How many times is someone allowed to lose entrance and gain entrance back to Heaven?
Exactly seventy times seven (Matthew 18:21-22). ;-)
email wrote:5. Is it a matter of a set amount of good works vs. evil works that a Christian does that will decide whether he gains entrance to Heaven?
No, because that would be salvation by works (II Timothy 1:9).
email wrote:6. If so...how much good works must a Christian do to enter Heaven? (for example: fifty one percent?)
No, because that would be salvation by works (Titus 3:5).
email wrote:7. Or is there a mysterious amount of good works that each individual Christian needs to achieve before he gains entrance to Heaven?
No, because that would be salvation by works (Ephesians 2:8-10).
email wrote:8.Or is it one mysterious sin that someone commits that makes them lose entrance to Heaven.
No, any sin will do (I John 1:5-7).
email wrote:The way you make it sound, it is so easy to lose your salvation and also very vague and uncertain as to how someone can lose their salvation. A Christian may never know if he "crossed the line". It sounds like we are relying on our own works and ourselves to gain entrance to heaven. If it relies on us being good (or a set amount of good) then odds are none of us will enter heaven. It's almost a matter of luck. Someone might say to themselves "I sure hope I did enough good works or that I didn't do the wrong thing to lose my salvation" It also sounds like you are saying that Jesus' death and blood aren't enough to forgive everything.
No, you are just meddling in God's affairs (James 4:11-12; I Corinthians 4:3-5). God does not reveal the exact metric by which He will judge us, except this: By Jesus' blood our faith will stand in place of righteous works of merit (Romans 3:23-4:5). However, our faith will be judged based on our conditional works and made whole by them (I Peter 1:17-19; II Corinthians 5:10; James 2:14-26). If our works do not support our claim of faith, then we will be lost (Matthew 7:21-23).

However, the Christian does not have to know God's minute by minute judgment of their every deed to have confidence in salvation. God has previously demonstrated His love (Romans 8:31-32), provided us with means for growth and reconciliation (Hebrews 10:24-25; James 5:19-20; Galatians 6:1; Jude 1:23-24; Ephesians 4:11-16; II Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17; Ephesians 3:3-5; Hebrews 4:12), and assured us of His vigilant nurturing (Philippians 4:12-16; Hebrews 12:5-11; Matthew 7:7-11). Therefore, we do not have to fear, trust in luck, trust in ourselves, question Jesus' blood, or be confused. More here:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... saved.html
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/forgives.html
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... hopes.html

Yes, a person may be lost, be he will have to be obstinate and determined, because God has set up many barriers that a saved person must crash through to become lost: the Scriptures (II Timothy 3:15-17); the church and Christian associates (Hebrews 10:24-25; I Corinthians 5:1-13), and providential punishment or "goading" (Psalm 119:67, 71; Acts 26:14). It will be neither easy nor accidental if a saint apostatizes, because we are in the hands of a loving God who does not want anyone to be lost (II Peter 3:9).

Please reread our last correspondence carefully, the above articles, and study each of the referenced passages. If you do, I believe you will understand all of this. If afterward you still do not understand, please feel free to ask me more questions then.
email wrote:And when it comes to baptism being needed for salvation...I guess that the thief on the cross was out of luck. He sure couldn't be baptized.
The command to be baptized for remission of sins in the name of Jesus was not even given to the apostles until 40 days after Jesus' resurrection (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16), and it was not preached until 50 days after Jesus' resurrection (Acts 2:37-38). Therefore, it was not applicable to him.

You can read more on this point here:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/thief.html
email wrote:And by the way. Esau, he was not truly repentant and did not want forgiveness...he just wanted his birthright back. He sought forgiveness "carefully with tears". He was not genuine. (ever seen a child cry because he wanted something..not because he was sorry?)
I am sorry, but I don't get your point. This shows that tears is not enough for redemption. It is a good example of "sorrow unto death" (II Corinthians 7:9-11), but I fail to see the connection to our discussion.
email wrote:If God truly does love us I'm certain that He would have made a truly simple plan for all of us. We are only human, and as a fallen race with Satan trying everything he can do to fool us and divide us, we really do need a simple plan...and plan that we can have assurance from, not from our own nature.
It is quite simple really. It only becomes complex when we bring a bucket full of prejudicial theology to Bible interpretation, which bias we insist on maintaining. Read the Bible (Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:37-38; Acts 22:16; I Peter 3:21....). Study the book of conversions, Acts. Answer for yourself how they were converted:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/salvation.html

Baptism really is simple and elementary (Hebrews 6:1-2). You have to work hard and long to wiggle out from underneath the clear commands to be baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:37-38).

I am thankful you are giving this more thought. I pray you give it sufficient and honest thought.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,

m273p15c
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RE: Falling from Grace

Post by email » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:14 am

I am very concerned for you too m273p15c. I hope that you at least believe that Satan exists and can mess with our minds quite easily. Even you can be misled.

I say this because you are very contradictory in your response.

You say that people can lose their faith by sin or not remaining faithful which would constitute good works. (see below)
m273p15c wrote:People may lose their salvation by not remaining faithful. They may fall away by committing various sins (Acts 8:12-13, 18-24; I Corinthians 6:9-10),
Yet you say continually that it is not by works. (see below)
m273p15c wrote:No, because that would be salvation by works (II Timothy 1:9).
...
No, because that would be salvation by works (Titus 3:5).
...
No, because that would be salvation by works (Ephesians 2:8-10).
Yet again you say that any sin will cause us to lose our salvation as well as being determined by works(see below)
m273p15c wrote:No, any sin will do (I John 1:5-7).
...
(Romans 3:23-4:5). However, our faith will be judged based on our conditional works and made whole by them (I Peter 1:17-19; II Corinthians 5:10; James 2:14-26). If our works do not support our claim of faith, then we will be lost (Matthew 7:21-23).
Therefore, based on your explanation salvation is a matter of works/not sinning and can only be explained by luck to any human being. For example, we might commit the sin that unsaves us and we will never know. So then it makes sense that we might as well wait till the last second before we die before we get saved. BUT that might be when we have Cancer and are not able to talk or be baptized...which means that we are out of luck too.

I guess you can ask yourself questions like this:

A: Does the Holy Spirit leave our bodies and re-enter them when re-saved?

B: Isn't the blood of Jesus good enough for any sin and every sin?

Humans cannot be trusted to be perfect but God can be trusted upon HisWord. Putting faith in ourselvesis impossible. Being able not to sin or be perfectly faithful and do all of the right things every second of every day is impossible. One sin caused humans to fall. Only one sin will do that again. I sure hope thatyou ask forgiveness for every single specific sin that you committed because I sure can't remember all of them.

I pray for you and I pray that you will seek the truth and not spread this false doctrine of fear.

Sincerely
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about Esau

Post by email » Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:20 am

About Esau.

You missed the point about how Esau sought forgiveness "carefully" with tears. The point is that he was not truly repentant. He used tears too look repentful...kinda like chilren sometimes do when they want something bad enough.
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Re: about Esau

Post by m273p15c » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:46 am

email wrote:About Esau.

You missed the point about how Esau sought forgiveness "carefully" with tears. The point is that he was not truly repentant. He used tears too look repentful...kinda like chilren sometimes do when they want something bad enough.
I understand that, but what's your point?

Thanks!
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Falling from Grace

Post by m273p15c » Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:29 pm

Thanks for the quick response. You appear to misunderstand what I am saying. Again, I would encourage you to reread the entire thread, especially the referenced Bible verses. Otherwise, you will never understand what I am saying, because your mindset is too different than mine.

Regardless, here are some additional explanations:
I am very concerned for you too m273p15c. I hope that you at least believe that Satan exists and can mess with our minds quite easily. Even you can be misled.
Yes, I believe in Satan and my own weakness; however, I also believe in a loving God who has promised to take care of me (Hebrews 13:5-6; Philippians 3:12-16). Furthermore, He has provided us with the tools we need to overcome Satan (Ephesians 6:10-18; II Corinthians 2:11). Whether or not I pick them up and use them is my choice, hence the admonishment in the preceding reference.
I say this because you are very contradictory in your response.

You say that people can lose their faith by sin or not remaining faithful which would constitute good works. (see below) ... Yet you say continually that it is not by works. (see below) ... Yet again you say that any sin will cause us to lose our salvation as well as being determined by works(see below) ... Therefore, based on yourexplanation salvation is a matter of works/not sinning
You have a loaded view of the word "works". In the Bible, this word is used multiple ways. In Romans 4:1-5, this word, "works", refers to deeds that earn or merit our salvation. Such works put God in our debt:
"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness ..." (Romans 4:4-5)
In this context, "works" is opposed to faith. They would be mutually exclusive. Any system that earns a person salvation, as you suggested I believe by your questions, would be salvation by works. This is what the Jews thought they could do. They thought they could keep the law perfectly and earn salvation (Romans 9:31-10:9). This is the error that Paul is fighting so vigorously throughout the book of Romans. Therefore, I also believe it is wrong.

However, God does require certain conditional works, like belief, repentance, confession, and baptism. Through these, we are told that faith is perfect or whole:
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:14-26)
The "works" referenced by Jame are not the same "works" referenced by Paul in Romans; otherwise, we would have a clear contradiction. Notice the difference: James' works are compatible with faith, in fact they complete it or perfect it! Paul's works innately incompatible with with faith. Clearly, this word is used in two different ways!

Again, if our works do not support the claim of our faith, then we will be condemned on judgment day (Matthew 7:21-23). It is up to God to decide for each person what is sufficient to support his claim of faith. If we operate in the guidelines that He specifies, we can have confidence and peace:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... saved.html
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/forgives.html
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... hopes.html

However, if we are deliberately sinning or negligent, then we have no assurance (I John 3:1-10; it's helpful to read this in the NIV and other newer translations).
... andcan only beexplained by luck to any human being. For example, we might commit the sin that unsaves us and we will never know. So then it makes sense that we might as well wait till the last second before we die before we get saved. BUT that might be when we have Cancer and are not able to talk or be baptized...which means that we are out of luck too.
I have answered this at least 3 times, and each time you ignore my answer: It has nothing to do with luck. God did not give us a rule book, kick us to the curb, and say, "Good luck!" We are living in His world wherein He moves and acts. He hears our prayers. He loves us. And, He has provided multiple tools, promises, and assurances that He will help us. How do you keep getting "luck" out of this? I believe his promise, so I call it "faith".
I guess you can ask yourself questions like this:

A: Does the Holy Spirit leave our bodies and re-enter them when re-saved?

B: Isn't the blood of Jesus good enough for any sin and every sin?
I am not going to get into the indwelling of the Holy Spirit with you. Suffice it to say, God and His Spirit both have enough energy to extend or withdraw their blessing as frequently as they see fit. Your question is a test of your faith, not God's ability.

Yes, the blood of Jesus is good enough for every sin. But, what if someone does not want the blood of Jesus applied to their sins? What if they change their mind?
Humans cannot be trusted to be perfect but God can be trusted upon HisWord. Putting faith in ourselvesis impossible. Being able not to sin or be perfectly faithful and do all of the right things every second of every day is impossible. One sin caused humans to fall. Only one sin will do that again. I sure hope thatyou ask forgiveness for every single specific sin that you committed because I sure can't remember all of them.
This is not about perfect obedience (II John 2:1-3). It is about doing our best, giving all diligence (II Peter 1:3-11; Philippians 3:12-16). When I sin, I do just what God commands. I confess and beg forgiveness for my sins (I John 1:5-10). Beyond that we trust in God (Philippians 3:12-16). ... You see, it is about faith, but not faith only.

The question is not about one sin, unknown to us, which we never discover despite our best effort. In fact, God has promised to reveal those to us (Philippians 3:15). Do you or do you not believe God will keep His promise?

Regardless, the question is about a person who willfully sins and insists on deliberately sinning, despite the pleas of his friends, family, church, the Bible, and ultimately God's providence. Can that person be lost? The Bible offers a resounding affirmation with multiple warnings.

The extreme hypothetical case, upon which you are fixated, I have answered repeatedly and shown it to be impractical. However, you have ignored the other extreme which is clearly outlined as a possibility for each of us in numerous Bible warnings. Just because I can't tell you where God is going to draw the line for you personally, does not mean there is not a line of sorts that He is going to draw. That is His business as the Judge - nor our business. We are supposed to do our best, give all diligence, etc. - not try to barely make it over the "line". Faith would push, trust, and obey.

This should only generate "fear" for the lazy, negligent, uncommitted, or disobedient.

My friend, I have answered all your questions, using Scripture, and harmonizing all Scriptures. You have cited little Scripture and you have ignored almost every one that I have cited, and yet you have not answered hardly any of my questions. It is evident that you are barely skimming what I have written. ... Please take your time and prayerfully, diligently study what has been written, especially the Scriptures, and then you harmonize them! You are clinging to a piece of the Bible, while ignoring the rest, since it does not fit in with your preconceived theology. Cease! Study all of God's Word with an open, honest mind! I am happy to continue our study, but you have to get serious.

May God help us to sincerely love truth,

m273p15c
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the line

Post by email » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:40 pm

what explains your point of view the most is what you say about the 'line that God draws for every one of us which is not known' that speaks completely to works for our salvation...as well as luck.

you do not see that.

God bless you in your search for the truth.
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Falling from Grace

Post by m273p15c » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:55 pm

You appear to be looking for a way out.

Obviously you did not read what I wrote, or you would have been more careful in your use of "works". Just because God draws a line, that does not necessitate salvation by works, as Paul denounced in Romans 4. Otherwise, belief would not be a requirement - unless you think God believes for you.

Please reread our discussion more carefully and honestly.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12),

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RE: Falling from Grace

Post by email » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:10 am

Please think about what you are saying. "Works" are at the heart of your reasoning for hanging on to salvation. Whether it be a set amount of good works or a limited amount of bad works. (or a specific sin that we commit) It is a mysterious line that no one knows when we cross it. It sounds like it is individual for everyone too. But it sounds like at least you are saying that humans have 490 chances in life to be saved and re-saved. (70 times seven, if my math is correct)

I am only concerned about the truth, not about looking for a way out. You assumed that. But it sounds like you just want to be right and cannot accept the fact that you can be wrong.

Sincerely
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Falling from Grace

Post by m273p15c » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:53 am

Please answer my question: Is your belief something you do, or does God do it for you?

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12),

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RE: Falling from Grace

Post by email » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:41 am

God enables me to have faith and to have the ability to believe. But I cannot put faith in myself or trust myself to be perfect.

One sin caused and still causes a division between man and God no matter how big or small it is. We will always be sinning and falling short of the glory of God in our thoughts and actions or lack of actions for our entire life up until the day that we die.

Sincerely
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Re: Falling from Grace

Post by m273p15c » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:50 am

You didn't answer my question. Do you have faith? Or, does God have it for you? Does God draw a "line" for you to cross over or not? Do you do anything for your salvation, even believe? Or, does God do it entirely for you?
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