I appreciate you including Scriptures in your response. I look forward to answering them below:
People are people, and we can fall into a rut of being stubborn, combative, and thinking we are right. However you want to put it, semantically. The many different denominations of churches attests to that. Christians can't even seem to be free of divisions, yet they all claim to be right (there are even denominations within denominations) From my opinion, I have known Baptists to claim to have all the answers, much like you say that Calvinists do. And, as far as quoting Scripture to back-up your claims, Satan does that as well. Remeber, a little child can sometimes be wiser than the wisest of elders or teachers.
I must admit that I fail to see your point. Are you trying to suggest that we cannot understand the Bible alike or that this is a hopeless endeavor? Paul said that:
... how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets (Ephesians 3:3-5)
Therefore, if we cannot understand the Bible, whose fault would that be? God's fault or our fault?
Yes, division does exist, and many people are claiming to be right; however, that eliminates neither the obligation nor possibility to be right. In fact, God commands us to eliminate division on the level of the local church, and Jesus prayed for global unity:
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? (I Corinthians 1:10-13)
I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
(John 20:20-23)
Jesus states that He had given glory to the apostles and us (
"those who will believe in Me through their word"), which glory would enable us to be united as one (
"given them, that hey may be one just as We are one"). Looking at the context, let us consider, "What is that
"glory" "? The context seems to firmly support that "glory" was the words given to the apostles by Jesus, which would constitute the Bible, and which were originally given to Him by the Father (
John 17:4, 6, 7, 8, 13, 14, 17, 19, 20). Consequently, Jesus and God planned that the Bible, God's Word, would be the very vehicle to bring about our unity! Therefore, we should spend less time disparaging it and more time studying it; otherwise, we will not be part of that one!
Finally, Satan did quote Scripture, but notice how Jesus corrected Him:
Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.' " Jesus said to him, "It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.' " (Matthew 4:5-7)
Did Jesus say, "Ahh, stalemate! We both managed to quote a Scripture!" ? Or, did Jesus back up and try another technique, since the Devil used Scripture? No, Jesus continued to use Scripture. In fact, He used Scripture to show that Satan mishandled it. And therein lies our goal and obligation: To pull together enough Scripture to weed out ideas that contradict with Scripture as a whole. Yes, anybody can quote a verse out of context, but it should be relatively easy to find a verse contradicting it, showing it as a misinterpretation. In contrast, the truth will be consistent with all Scriptures and contradictory to none (
Titus 1:2). In fact, being able to use the Scriptures and point out contradictions with it, is both the way and requirement for an elder to rebuke the false teacher (
Titus 1:2, 9-11). Granted, there are some passages, which are
"difficult to understand" (
II Peter 3:15-17); however, they are not
impossible to understand, and with some diligence, we should be able to understand them (
II Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17; Ephesians 3:3-5).
Therefore, I would happily quote Scripture, being thankful for the opportunity. Otherwise, we would be stuck trying to battle this out using our own wits. Thankfully, by carefully using Scripture, we can
together turn to God and learn His will on the matter!
One thing that I want to point out. I believe that this verse you quoted:
> You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)>
is talking about the sin nature of man. When we are born, if anyone of us was to never sin, then he wouldn't fall from grace. But unfortunately, everyone has.
Thanks for responding to this passage. I understand what you are saying, but I believe the context does not support that interpretation.
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law .
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:1-4)
Although we are all born innoccent and fall from that innocence by sin (
Romans 7:7-11), this initial condtion is not regarded as one of grace. In contrast, one who never sins is regarded as one justified by "works" or "law", which is in contrast to God's system of grace (
Romans 4:1-8; Galatians 3:1-ff). Therefore, the proposed interpretation contradicts the common usage of "grace" in Scripture, and must be untrue. Furthermore, the immediate context, quoted above, speaks of these people previously being free in Christ and warns of them being entangled
again. In fact, the contrast in this very passage is between "law" and "grace". Those who are seeking redemption by following the law (the Law of Moses) have abandoned redemption by grace (Christ's New Covenant). Since this passage clearly refers to these people as being made free, and since it warns of being entangled
again, it cannot possibly refer to people who have never sinned and are only now coming under the bondage of sin.
If you see any support for your proposed interpretation, or if you see that my interpretation contradicts the context, please let me know.
As far as "levels" of heaven go, here is the verse I was talking about. "lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal." To me, it sounds like if we are good Christians, winning souls for him etc. there will be rewards in heaven.
I will concede that there
may be varying degrees of reward in heaven. For example, Paul may enjoy richer blessings than I. I am open to that idea, if it can be shown in Scripture. Unfortunately, I do not think this verse will accomplish that goal. Here's the broader context for reference:
16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
17 "But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face,
18 "so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal;
20 " but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal.
21 "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light.
23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? (Matthew 6:16-25)
Generally, Jesus is here admonishing us to
not have a materialistic outlook. Our focus should
not be the acquiring of men's esteem or earthly wealth. In the middle of this point is the verse you referenced. I confess that the verse implies there may be multiple blessings in heaven as opposed to a single blessing. This idea is easy to imagine and realize. Will we not enjoy being with God, Jesus, the Spirit, and thousands of saints and angels beyond number? What about no tears, no sin, no illness, no evil, no darkness...? Would not each of these things constitute a blessing? Therefore, we might enjoy thousands of blessings in heaven. Consequently, I would
not dispute that there are multiple "treasures" in heaven, but that is not the point of the passage.
The summary verse shows us the point:
"For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Notice that Jesus speaks of a treasure,
singular. Therefore, His point does not regard the amount, mechanism for acquiring, or degree of reward. His point is for us to set our hearts on heaven! The lack of consistency in plurality indicates that we are stretching the verse beyond its original intention to use it as a proof-text for differing degrees of reward.
Furthermore, where does this verse say that there will be differing levels of reward? At best, the verse only teaches that there are multiple treasures in heaven. Can you show from the text that these treasures are laid up one at a time, based on individual action, versus being laid up all at once in a single action? Can you show that one person gets one reward, while someone else gets a different reward? I think we have to be very careful of not bringing our prejudices to interpret verses like this; otherwise, we see much more than is really there.
Actually, the parable of the denarius seems to suggest that everyone will receive the same reward. In it, everyone receives the same single denarius, regardless if they began the day's work at dawn, noon, or afternoon. They all got paid the same regardless (
Matthew 20:1-16)! Would that not suggest the same reward regardless of effort?
Finally, even if one was able to prove there are varying levels of possible, personal reward in heaven, the verses that show the possibility of apostasy use phrases that cannot apply to any form of heaven:
- "estranged from Christ" (Galatians 5:4) - Can one be saved or enjoy heaven apart from Christ?
- "fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4) - Can one be saved apart from grace?
- "disqualified" (I Corinthians 9:27) - not fearful that he might "miss first place", nor "settle for second", but "disqualified" from the race altogether
- "an evil heart of unbelief departing from the living God" (Hebrews 3:12-13) - Can one be saved or enjoy heaven apart from God? Can on be saved with an evil heart? Can one be saved with out belief, or faith?
- "lest we drift away" by "neglecting so great a salvation" (sic - Hebrews 2:1-3) - Verse suggests we will be unable to escape receiving a just reward for every transgression and reward through this same neglection, which does not sound like heaven!
- "faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck " (I Timothy 1:19) - Can one be saved without a faith (Hebrews 11:6)?
- "again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. ... better for them not to have known the way of righteousness" (II Peter 2:20-22)
The real problem that must be confronted are the above passages, which indicate much more than just a reduction of reward. They indicate complete apostasy and rejection. Even
if there are multiple levels of heaven, this cannot be used to explain the above passages.
And what about this?
Hebrews 12:16-17 "Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
The last phrase of this verse is usually stressed heavily in order to show how Esau plead with God for forgiveness, but "God turned a deaf ear to his cry, and spurned his petition." Does this mean that God won't save everyone who asks for forgiveness.
No. Remember, Esau did
not cry after he sold his birthright (
Genesis 25:29-34). He cried
after his
judgment was handed down (
Genesis 27:30-35). Likewise, if someone waits until judgment day to repent, it will be too late (
Matthew 7:21-23; Hebrews 3:7-4:13; 9:27). As an example, the story of the rich man and Lazarus contains the only positive fulfillment to your question:
After death and in torments, many people will regret their choices and seek forgiveness, but judgment will have already been sealed. Then, and only then, will it be too late (
Luke 16:19-31)!
Generally, as long as people live, they have opportunity to repent. As two extreme examples, if Paul, who was originally a murderer, persecutor, and torturer of Christians, can be saved, then cannot anybody? In fact, Jesus used Paul as an example of us His tremendous longsuffering (
I Timothy 1:12-16). How about the Jews who crucified Jesus? Can we do worse than they? Yet, they were able to be saved (
Acts 2:36-41)! I know of no case ever recorded in Scripture, where someone was denied salvation who submitted themselves to God. There is nothing to suggest that the truly penitent, diligent believer will be kept away from salvation. In fact, God's character suggests the very opposite (
I Timothy 2:4; II Peter 3:9; Acts 17:26-27).
However, the Scriptures are very clear regarding the danger of delay. One can only push off conversion by hardening his heart. Every time one hardens his heart, it becomes more difficult and less likely that he will later repent. As more time passes in defiant rebellion, the less likely it will be that he will
want to repent (
Hebrews 6:4-8; 3:7-4:13). At some point, it will be impossible for him to repent, because he has so severely seared his conscience (
I Timothy 4:1-2). In this regard, we can prevent ourselves from being saved. This is getting into blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is beyond the scope of your question, but I think it was worthy of a footnote, none the less. :-)
Lastly, I realize this is a bit long, but if I could answer your questions more succinctly, I would. This is the very reason why diligence is required in studying the Scriptures (
II Timothy 2:15; I Timothy 4:13, 15-16). It takes time to work through the detailed results of comparing our beliefs to Scripture as a whole. I pray that we will both stick with this, so that we may both receive the reward. ;-)
Please let me know
"how you read". I look forward to hearing from you again soon,
May God help us to love Him supremely,
m273p15c--