The Sovereignty Of God (Total Depravity)

Is Calvinism taught in the Bible? Does man have free-will? Can a Christian apostatize? Discuss all related questions here.

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The Sovereignty Of God (Total Depravity)

Post by email » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:07 pm

I believe in the total depravity of man in concerning mans spiritual condition. Man's responsibility is in this physical life basically stated in Genesis 1:28 "...Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Our free will in only within the physical aspect of life yet I also believe God has a master plan He is working though spiritual influence as seen in Pharoh that God worked out His will exactly as He wanted.

We as Christians have a responsibility to live according to God's moral and ethical principles written in His Word with the obveous consequences that comes in not following His commands.

Born spiritually dead because of Adam's sin, we are completely deaf, blind and lame spiritually and would never choose God for the simple reason that no matter how much we are told of God, His Son Jesus and what He did, we cannot truely deep down see it or believe it without being first regenerated by God's Holy Spirit, first. Once a person is regenerated and made alive spiritually, a person can't, not, believe... i.e irrisistable grace.

>From John 6 shows God's total control as to who can come to God and be saved.

ALL those God gives to His Son Jesus comes to Him:
John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Only those the Father DRAWS to Jesus comes to Christ:
John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

ONLY those God gives to His Son Jesus comes to Him:
John 6:65 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

The line between God's Sovereignty and Man's responsibility is clearly defigned by the above. Our realm of freedom is our physical world. We can choose to obey or disobey God. What man doesn't have in a lost state is the will to choose God.

Another Proof text is this:
Acts 28:26-27
[26] Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
[27] For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Romans 11:7-8
[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
[8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

The above Jews could physically choose to do what ever they wanted but they could not choose God because He blinded them.

If you have the time, let me know what you think.
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larry
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Re: The Sovereignty Of God (Total Depravity)

Post by larry » Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:50 pm

Thanks for visiting insearchoftruth.org. I will respond to your email.

First of all, the website answers most, if not all, your questions. Just go to the section on Calvinism and it is very thorough in dealing with total depravity, etc. It will take time to read all the scriptures, but I believe if you will review all that is on the website regarding Calvinism and read all the scriptural references, you will have a clearer understanding of why Calvinism is not taught in the Bible. Once you have done that, if there are any specific scriptures you don't understand or where you don't agree with our conclusions, please let me know and I will try to explain them further. Or in the event we have misunderstood, make correction.

I will make just a few comments on your email (in red).
email wrote:I believe in the total depravity of man in concerning mans spiritual condition. Man's responsibility is in this physical life basically stated in Genesis 1:28 "...Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Our free will in only within the physical aspect of life yet I also believe God has a master plan He is working though spiritual influence as seen in Pharoh that God worked out His will exactly as He wanted.
Response: There is much on the subject on the website, but I will cite just one verse.
Joshua wrote:Joshua 24:15 “...choose this day whom you will serve...But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Joshua said to choose who we want to serve. Do we have the right to choose or not? Was he just teasing the people, or did they have the right to choose? And he wasn’t talking about where to work or what food to eat. He was talking about serving God. We have the choice as to whether we love (certainly not physical) Him or not. We have the free will. Look at the website for many more passages.
email wrote:We as Christians have a responsibility to live according to God's moral and ethical principles written in His Word with the obveous consequences that comes in not following His commands.
You have answered your own question. Yes we do have a responsibility to live according to God’s moral and ethical principles (not physical) written in His word with the obvious consequences. That can only be done if we have the right to choose to do so or not. If we can’t choose, we have no responsibility.
email wrote:Born spiritually dead because of Adam's sin, we are completely deaf, blind and lame spiritually and would never choose God for the simple reason that no matter how much we are told of God, His Son Jesus and what He did, we cannot truely deep down see it or believe it without being first regenerated by God's Holy Spirit, first. Once a person is regenerated and made alive spiritually, a person can't, not, believe... i.e irrisistable grace.

From John 6 shows God's total control as to who can come to God and be saved.

ALL those God gives to His Son Jesus comes to Him:

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

Only those the Father DRAWS to Jesus comes to Christ:

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
He draws us by the gospel (II Thess. 2:14)
email wrote:ONLY those God gives to His Son Jesus comes to Him:

John 6:65 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

The line between God's Sovereignty and Man's responsibility is clearly defigned by the above. Our realm of freedom is our physical world. We can choose to obey or disobey God. What man doesn't have in a lost state is the will to choose God.

Another Proof text is this:

Acts 28:26-27

[26] Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

[27] For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
The quote from Isaiah above in Acts 28:27 clearly says “their eyes have they closed. Who closed? They closed, not God. God is not willing that any should perish (II Peter 3:9).
email wrote:Romans 11:7-8

[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

[8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

The above Jews could physically choose to do what ever they wanted but they could not choose God because He blinded them.
Actually, the Jews couldn’t physically choose to do what ever they wanted. Because they disobeyed God, they were eventually taken into captivity against their wishes and they were limited as to what they could do physically. When one gets off the path the Bible describes, they get themselves into contradictions.
email wrote:If you have the time, let me know what you think.
I’m thankful you have an interest in spiritual things. I encourage you to study the Bible. You will understand God’s plan for man if you approach the scriptures with an open mind.

Larry
http://www.insearchoftruth.org

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Re: Re: The Sovereignty Of God (Total Depravity)

Post by email » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:45 pm

Larry,

Thank you for your response. I throw things out sometimes to see where people are at.Paul wrote to the Corinthians about feeding them with milk and not meat because they would not be able to bear it. God's sovereignty is a very deep, wide, long and meaty subject. Just like you'd never throw a first grader into a calculus class, so you don't throw this subject in the face of youngor baby Christians. The whole subject of God's sovereignty is intertwined with all sorts of doctrines for Christians who really desire to get to know and get a deeper understanding of who God is.

I once was in your place and fought tooth and nail that man chooses to bebelieve or not. Having studied all the biblical evidence with all the cross referencing, I believe whole heartily when Jesus said, "Ye have not chosen me but I have chosen you..." and that I was "predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" not mine.

This isn't a closed or open mind thing because that goes both ways. I was once close minded when I was in your position. It ended up me give up my self pride to just believe what Jesus said and from there I became what you might consider a lost cause. This was an extremely difficult subject for me but God's word was stronger than my so called "free will". As I studied and studied, it ended up that I was unable to disbelieve God's word with the Holy Spirit in me working in me both to will and do His good pleasure. Although I don't go to the extreme that God micro manages lives, I do believe he macro manages them. God has a particular purpose for me and I am being willed by the Holy Spirit to accomplish those things when the times come for them.

Well, anyway, this is a long deep subject. Your pro-choice and I'm pro-God. Call me a heretic. Thanks again for the response.
The above presented views do not necessarily represent any specific individual, registered on this forum or otherwise.
Who is "email"?

larry
Posts: 406
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:54 pm

Re: The Sovereignty Of God (Total Depravity)

Post by larry » Sun Sep 06, 2009 2:08 pm

Pardon my delay in responding, but I have been very busy the last few days.

As I read what you have to say, there is much with which I agree. You make statements that God has predestined you without your will being involved. Then you say you studied and then believed God’s word. When closely examined, these statements are contradictory. Of course, the Bible teaches predestination (Eph. 1:5). But what is Bible predestination? Has God chosen certain individuals to be saved and others to be lost regardless on what they would desire? Or, has God set the boundaries and then we can choose to accept them or reject them? Of course, I believe He set boundaries and them we choose whether or not we want to accept them. If we accept, then we will be saved and God “macro manages” our lives as you put it. We can rest assured we will continue to be saved as long as we try to do His will. We may falter now and then, but God will forgive us if we are repentant. However, we can choose to leave God and return to the world (I Cor. 9:27).

The portion of scripture you quoted from Jn. 15:16 is not talking about His people in general. That scripture is specifically talking about His 12 apostles. This takes place during His address to the 12 at the last supper. He did specifically choose the 12---see Acts 1:2; 24. Yet, even though they were specially chosen by the Lord Himself, one of them then exercised his free will and chose not to follow Christ.

I assume when you say God does not micro manage lives, you mean something like Joseph having the free will while down in Egypt to make the choices regarding his obeying God, and like Daniel choosing to serve God in Babylonian captivity. Or, are you saying Joseph and Daniel really had no choice, but God in effect forced them to serve Him? On the other side, I assume you believe Hitler really had a choice regarding his despicable actions. Or, do you believe that God forced him to make his decisions?

Also, I noted you conveniently failed to respond to the scriptures I gave in my first response.

larry
http://www.insearchoftruth.org

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