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Calvin believed God forced man to sin - Wrong!

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:16 pm
by email
"Calvin further reasoned that one of these choices, which God made, is that man would sin. This sin, which God forced man to commit..." This is simply wrong.

Wrong

Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 10:49 pm
by m273p15c
Could you please elaborate? How is that statement wrong? Did Calvin not teach that? Or, do you believe that teaching is contrary to Scripture? Why?

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,

m273p15c

Re: Wrong

Posted: Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:32 am
by email
I think you should elaborate on why such a wrong statement is made in the first place. Calvin did not teach that? But apparently you believe his teaching is contrary to Scripture? Why?

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,

email

Re: Wrong

Posted: Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:13 pm
by m273p15c
May I divide this question into two parts?

First, did Calvin teach that man has free will or not? (If there is only God's will, then who chose for Adam and Eve to sin?) I believe there are some quotes on our web-site that indicate Calvin's teaching on this point:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/election.html

If you have other quotes that show otherwise, please let me know. I don't want to misrepresent anyone, even those who have been dead for over 400 years. :)

That being said, I assume that you and I would agree that Calvin's beliefs are not the primary question. Calvin will not be our Judge, neither will we be judged according to his words (John 12:48).

So, our second and more important question would be, "What does the Bible teach about man's free will?" We have several articles on our web-site that systematically walk through the 5 primary tenets of Calvinism, as well as introductory and concluding articles. These articles are already and readily available for you to examine at your convenience:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... #calvinism

Please don't feel like you have to read them entirely to respond, but please start reading them, because they answer the second half of your question. As you find verses or quotes that you think I have misinterpreted, please let me know immediately. I'll be glad to study the Bible with you on this very important point. I can think of few studies that are more influential in determining what man must do (if anything) to be saved. Consequently, I cannot think of many more important topics for you and I to study together.

I look forward to hearing your feedback. And, I appreciate you echoing my concern, hope, and prayer.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,

m273p15c

RE: Wrong

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:31 am
by email
m273p15c,

In the interest of accurate information it needs to be said that Calvin as well as Scripture teaches that man has free will, but that will is not beyond the confines of our sovereign God. Your dispute is not with me, or Calvin or even Scripture for that matter, but with God. If your logic compels you to follow through with the illogical assumption that “therefore” God must have chosen for Adam and Eve I really can’t help you. If, however, you’re question is sincere and not cynically rhetorical the answer is simple: No. God did not choose for Adam and Eve to sin. They did that all by themselves.

Did God know they would sin? Yes, but evidently His love reaches beyond our free will (which by the way, is free to either obey God or sin), and sees in our troubled existence something worth all the trouble and even sacrifice for.

m273p15c, thanks for your interest and I probably should have just left well enough alone and not written in the first place. Quibbling over words or theology has never been my strong point. May God bless you in your work and continue to challenge you in your heart.

Wrong

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:08 pm
by m273p15c
Many people feel very similarly. If it were "arguing over words to no profit", then I would agree whole-heartedly. My concern is that this is not ultimately an academic issue. It can touch the very core of our conversion - what to do to be saved.

May I break this into 2 questions? One of which I would like to mention and move on...

I won't argue with you about what Calvin taught about Adam and Eve. There is a large debate about this point among Calvinists themselves (supralapsarianism, "before the fall"; versus infralapsarianism, "after the fall"), and frankly, I think it is somewhat academic. We are not Adam or Eve. If you can find any quote from Calvin that shows I have misrepresented him, then I will happily verify your reference, post your quote, and change my article. I don't want to misrepresent anyone. In the mean time, I will happily look for quotes that will clarify one way or the other. I can assure that I intended nothing cynical or rhetorical in my writings - then or now. "Love ... bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things..." (I Corinthians 13). That's who I want to be.

More importantly and immediately applicable, I agree with almost everything you said:
  1. "... Scripture teaches that man has free will, but that will is not beyond the confines of our sovereign God ..."
  2. "... No. God did not choose for Adam and Eve to sin. They did that all by themselves. ..."
  3. "... Did God know they would sin? Yes ..."
  4. "... our free will (which by the way, is free to either obey God or sin), and sees in our troubled existence something worth all the trouble and even sacrifice for."
I agree with all that. However, in my experience, most true Calvinists, who strictly follow Calvin, Westminster Larger Catechism, etc. (usually regarded as hyper-Calvinists today), would disagree with the above statements. I realize that many 2- and 3-point Calvinists or, so called "low Calvinists" would more likely accept the above statements. I am guessing you might more closely fall into that category. Feel free to set me straight, if you think I am wrong here. I am not trying to put you in a box, rather, I would like for my "labeling of boxes" to match what most people think and how they talk, as much as possible.

Anyway, I don't really want to argue that point. Such labels are merely the categorization of human experience, and I think it falls into the Bible warning to avoid arguments over words to no profit (II Timothy 2:14). However, I do want to be a diligent student of Scripture (II Timothy 2:15; 3:16-17), and I do seek unity among those who wear Christ's name, because it meant so much to Him (John 17:20-23) and is commanded for us (I Corinthians 1:10-13; Ephesians 4:1-6). And, I want to "contend earnestly for the faith, which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3).

So, can you elaborate on this statement?
"... evidently His love reaches beyond our free will ..."
I am not looking to trap you in your words or to pick you apart over some academic points. If you are willing, what I would like to humbly consider from Scripture is the most practical question, "What must I do to be saved?" Would you explain to me what you understand from Scripture and why?

I hope we can have a very kind, honest, and genuine Bible study between two men who wear Christ's name. And, I am thankful for God's providence that we at least had an occasion to broach the subject.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12),

m273p15c

RE: Wrong

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:46 pm
by email
Thank you for your kind and even encouraging words. I don’t consider myself a defender of John Calvin or Classic Calvinism, I was just curious about the original statement made on your website of which now I don’t even recall. So, obviously my interest has run out even before my curiosity was met. Sorry, I just don’t have the time or energy to look through all the correspondence and discuss with you. But again, your kind attitude was a welcome tone for any discussion. God bless you in your work.

Wrong

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:54 pm
by m273p15c
I understand what you are saying. If you ever want to talk about this or anything else Bible related, please let me know.

You know where my heart is.

Thanks!

m273p15c