Thank You for your material on Calvinism, but question...

Is Calvinism taught in the Bible? Does man have free-will? Can a Christian apostatize? Discuss all related questions here.

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Thank You for your material on Calvinism, but question...

Post by email » Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:44 pm

I "discovered" Calvinism about a year ago through R.C. Sproul. I imbibed deeply from Reformed writings. But the more I read, the more inconsistencies I saw. I would not now want to be called a Calvinist (not that I would be an Arminian either.) As I read your arguments, it was like going down a list of all the questions and issues I have had in my own mind.

I found your articles, and the FAQ in particular, to be very cogent and well reasoned. By far, they are the most balanced, non-inflammatory articles I have found on the web.
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Post by m273p15c » Thu Sep 26, 2002 9:15 pm

Similarly, I would not want to be a Calvinist or Armenian. I prefer to simply be a Christian, as I imagine you might prefer to be too.

So, what are your thoughts now? Where are you spiritually? Is there anything I can do?

May God bless you in your pursuit of truth.
Last edited by m273p15c on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by email » Fri Sep 27, 2002 10:52 am

Thanks for following up. I appreciate that.

However, I should say that, though I found many of your thoughts on Calvinism to be good, that does not mean I think all your material is either correct or orthodox. Though I may disagree with a Calvinist regarding Total Depravity and the extent of the corruption of man's will, I do not deny original sin. Man is sinful from the moment of conception and all are under condemnation for that sin. Otherwise, the necessity of the virgin birth of Christ would not make sense. From what I can gather (and correct me if I am wrong,) you believe all men are born in innocence.

The more I ponder election and human responsibility, I would say that I place the mystery of God between these. A Calvinist would also believe that there is a mystery, but would place it in the issue of reprobation and responsibility. To a Calvinist, God has predestined some to hell and they are justly held accountable. I would say that God has predestined no one to hell but wants all to come to repentance.
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Post by m273p15c » Fri Sep 27, 2002 11:12 pm

It is true that I believe each person is born innocent. If you've read the articles, then this might be a review, but I would like to hear your answers.

I apologize for the logical numbering, but it eases the organization of my thoughts:
  1. The virgin birth was not necessitated because of Original Sin. It is a necessary conclusion of the doctrine; otherwise, one could not explain Christ's sinlessness; however, I find no reference to this necessity in Scripture. Instead, I find this explanation:
    Isaiah, a prophet of God, wrote:"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel." Isaiah 7:14
    This was to be a sign of the Messiah. It's purpose was not spiritual purity, but to aid recognition of the Messiah, just as were all the signs associated with Jesus (John 20:30-31).

    BTW, Eve sinned first. Would not then sin pass by way of the woman? Just a thought. (I Timothy 2:13-14)
  2. The primary problem that I have with Calvinism is its charge of unfairness upon the character of God. How can God be fair if He charges sin to those who have had no opportunity to do or think anything, much less evil? This seems to be a direct violation of God's character as described in Ezekiel 18 (more on this in the articles):
    Ezekiel, a prophet, wrote:NKJ Ezekiel 18:1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 "What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying: 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge'?

    3 "As I live," says the Lord GOD, "you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

    4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.

    5 But if a man is just And does what is lawful and right;

    6 If he has not eaten on the mountains, Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, Nor defiled his neighbor's wife, Nor approached a woman during her impurity;

    7 If he has not oppressed anyone, But has restored to the debtor his pledge; Has robbed no one by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing;

    8 If he has not exacted usury Nor taken any increase, But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity And executed true judgment between man and man;

    9 If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully -- He is just; He shall surely live!" Says the Lord GOD.

    10 " If he begets a son who is a robber Or a shedder of blood, Who does any of these things

    11 And does none of those duties, But has eaten on the mountains Or defiled his neighbor's wife;

    12 If he has oppressed the poor and needy, Robbed by violence, Not restored the pledge, Lifted his eyes to the idols, Or committed abomination;

    13 If he has exacted usury Or taken increase -- Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him.

    14 " If, however, he begets a son Who sees all the sins which his father has done, And considers but does not do likewise;

    15 Who has not eaten on the mountains, Nor lifted his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, Nor defiled his neighbor's wife;

    16 Has not oppressed anyone, Nor withheld a pledge, Nor robbed by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing;

    17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor And not received usury or increase, But has executed My judgments And walked in My statutes -- He shall not die for the iniquity of his father; He shall surely live!

    18 "As for his father, Because he cruelly oppressed, Robbed his brother by violence, And did what is not good among his people, Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.

    19 " Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.

    20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

    21 " But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

    22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live.

    23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

    24 " But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

    25 " Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, Of house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?

    26 "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies.

    27 "Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive.

    28 "Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

    29 "Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

    30 " Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord GOD. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin.

    31 "Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

    32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!"
    I apologize for the long quote, but it is worth reading, so the context is not misunderstood.
  3. Yes, I believe all children are born innocent, just as Adam and Eve were created innocent. How did God, through Moses, recognize the children of Israel as "having no knowledge of good or evil", just as did Adam and Eve? How were their children innocent? Please compare Deuteronomy 1:39 with Genesis 3:5, 22.
  4. Your assessment of God's desire for men to be saved, I believe is according to Scripture. II Peter 3:9 states that God desires all men to be saved. This is corroborated by I Timothy 2:3-5. I'm glad we agree on this. :-)
  5. Regarding responsibility, it seems that God has stated that every man is responsible for his own sins. Ezekiel 18:20, Galatians 6:6, II Corinthians 5:10, and Romans 14:10. How can one be charged with sins for which it was impossible for him to influence? How can one be responsible for that which he did not commit? Does a baby have any control over its birth or choose its parents? Again, how could God fairly hold one responsible for that which he could not possibly account? Could you have prevented Adam's sins? Did you cause Adam in any way to sin? How can you and I fairly be blamed for Adam's sin? Emphasis on "fairly".

    Please notice what Romans states about the origin of sin and death:
    Paul wrote:"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12)
    Adam introduced inequity and unfairness into the world through his sin. The judgment of physical death was passed down to all men because of Adam and Eve's sin; consequently death entered by way of their sin (the removal of the tree of life for all men). However, their spiritual death was accomplished by their own sin. Spiritual "death spread to all men, because all have sinned"! In Romans 5, Paul makes a comparison between the physical death and condemnation ushered in by his sin and the spiritual life offered by Jesus. Notice the only reference to personal choice or responsibility for this entire context is in verse 12, "because all have sinned". The emphasis is really on Christ, sin, and the law. Adam's sin is an illustration, and should be analyzed too closely. We must be careful not to stretch the analogy beyond it's original intent. If Adam's sin brought sin upon all men, without choice, then Christ's sacrifice brought salvation to all men, without choice, universal salvation (Romans 5:18-19). Again, we must not press an illustration beyond its constructed meaning.

    Don't leave out "because all have sinned" (Romans 5:12).
Please let me know what you think.

May God bless in you in your pursuit of truth.

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