Study #4 - God's Sovereignty and Man's Free Will

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Subject: [ISOT] Truthseekers: Results for On-line Bible Study #4 - God's Sovereignty and Man's Free Will
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 18:31:59 -0500

Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted
on Friday, February 24, 2006 at 17:31:56
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What should be man's primary goal of this life?: To Know God and to Serve God
Why did God make man?: To display God's glory to man and through man
Does God have free will?: God's will makes choices based on the preferences and pleasures of His mind.

His will is controled by His pleasures, it is not independant from his mind.
How does our views of God's sovereignty and man's will affect our spiritual lives?: It determines our world view. It determines how we view God and in turn how we view the world we live in.
Is God a just and fair god? (Deuteronomy 32:4; Romans 2:11) : YES
Can God lie? (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:17-18): NO
Can God, or the Bible, teach conflicting doctrines? (I Corinthians 14:33): NO
How is God a jealous god? (Deuteronomy 4:23-24): The first commandment is "Thou shall have no other gods.." God Himself follows this law. He is the center of the universe and the only proper object of our worship. He becomes 'jealous' when we focus our worship on anything else other than Him.
What characteristics of God are exhibited in II Peter 3:9 and Ephesians 2:4?: Trustworthy, longsuffering, and loving
What characteristics of God are exhibited in Ephesians 5:6, Romans 1:18, and Hebrews 10:29-31?: Just, Holy, and Righteous
Does God have any of the characteristics of darkness or evil? (I John 1:5): NO
Is God Sovereign? (Isaiah 40:13-14 ; I Timothy 6:15-16): YES
Can man oppose God's will? (Isaiah 43:13 ): NO
Who created and designed man? (Isaiah 45:9-10): God
Is man encouraged to choose God's will? (Deuteronomy 30:19; Joshua 24:15) : YES
How can man personally be "able" to resist temptation, if he has no free will to do good? (I Corinthians 10:13): I believe that temptations come into our lives according to the will of God. God does not directly tempt anyone to sin. James says that God does not tempt anyone but this is not meant to be interpreted as "God does not make anyone sin" -- God does make people sin -- but He uses indirect means (Satan and man's sin nature).

In order to avoid temptations, you must ask God not to lead us into temptation (matthew 6:13)

But keep in mind also that we should count it as joy when we endure some trials -- Blessed is he who endures temptations (James 1:2,12)
Has God predestined those who will go to heaven? (Ephesians 1:3-5) : YES
What basis was used to determine those who would be predestined? (Ephesians 1:3-4) : His own purposes and pleasure.
Did the decrees of God, preached by Jonah 3:4, come to pass? (Jonah 3:4, 10): NO
Did king Hezekiah die when God decreed? (II Kings 20:1, 5-6): NO
Did the events regarding David happen as God prophesied? (I Samuel 23:11-13) : NO
If God cannot lie and predestination be true, how can these otherwise false statements be explained?: The will of God is only what comes to pass -- not what might happen or would happen. How the events played out were exactly the way God wanted them to. Prayer does not change the will of God. what we pray is what God placed in our heart to pray, and prayer is the means of God releasing His will. Remember His will is only what actually happens in heaven or on earth. God does not change His mind, But at times God desires a threat, a prayer, and an avoidance of the threat to play out.
Has God elected the saved? (I Peter 1:2; 2:9): YES
Can the elect earn their salvation? (Ephesians 2:8-10): NO
Who is described as God's elect in Isaiah 42:1-3? (I Peter 2:6) And, what was the work that He was elected to do?: The elect in those verses is Jesus Christ.
Were the children of Israel elected as God's special people? (Genesis 25:22-24; Deuteronomy 4:37; 14:2): YES
Why were they destroyed and unable to enjoy the blessings of their special covenant? (Romans 10:1-3): God's will is revealed by whatever comes to pass... God does what he pleases, and He has the right to cause His elect to follow Him or fall from him.

Concerning the next question, God has the right to demand one thing and cause those demands to not be met by man. A God that tries and fails is not a God at all. The outcome is exactly according to God's will.
Did God try to keep them from being lost? (II Chronicles 36:15-16): NO
If the Israelites were destroyed because of their unfaithfulness, and God tried to keep it from happening, then how was their election unconditional and why could God not do what He set out to do?: Our faithfulness or unfaithfulness is determined by God alone. They were chosen (elected) unconditionally because God selected them, they did not select God. God's purpose for Israel was not to bless them unconditionally, but rather they were elected to be God's example. What God set out to do, was done exactly according to his will.
Why are we to take heed to the warning of I Corinthians 10? (I Corinthians 10:12): According to God's will, there are many living with a false belief that they are the children of God. We should all take heed to make certain that our election is sure (2 Peter 1:10). Who makes us stand in Christ? (2 Cor. 1:21, Rom. 14:4)
Why did the apostle Paul discipline himself? (I Corinthians 9:27): His goal was to live what he preached
If the great apostle Paul was in danger of being "disqualified" or a "castaway", how could his election have been considered "unconditional" and "irrevocable"?: He was never in jeopardy of losing His salvation. Paul is speaking of being disqualifed of a certain reward that will be given to the most faith Christian that ever lived on earth. The winner of that crown will immediately disqualify himself because Christ alone is worthy.
What kind of people deserve a punishment worse than death? (Hebrews 10:26-31; 11:4-6; II Timothy 2:18) What descriptions are used in the verses showing their previous good standing?: Those who reject Christ
What happened to the Galatian Christians? (Galatians 5:4; 4:19): The desired the bondage of Judaism rather than the liberty of Christ.
How are we to make are election sure? (II Peter 1:10): By diliently examining ourselves. Our fruit will reflect our master.
If Christians are unconditionally elected, how can they make anything sure, and how could their salvation not be sure to begin with?: Salvation is certain for the elect. What we each need to make sure of is whether we are the elect or not. The deeds and motivations of the elect are distinct from the non-elect.
What is the basis for God's change in judgment? (Jeremiah 18:7-10; II Corinthians 5:10) : His purposes are for the most part unknown. But He is faithful in what He reveals -- which is to punish evil.
Does God want anybody to be lost? Even the wicked? (II Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:23, 32) : 'want' is a very loose term. God 'wants' on multiple levels -- meaning some things he wants more than other things. His want for all to repent is a lesser desire of God and His want for only the elect to be saved. Whatever is God's greatest desire/want .. that is what His will chooses. While it is true that God wants all to be saved, it is equally true that God wants even more for only the elect to be saved. Therefore, only the elect are saved, not everyone.
Why are some people lost? (Matthew 23:37; John 5:40) : God's will.
List at least one condition of salvation? (John 3:15-16, 36) : The only condition is if God chooses you. Whom God chooses, He will cause to believe in Christ. Faith and repentance are results of salvation, not the causes.
What do you think about the overall length of this lesson?: little long
What do you think about the overall challenge of this lesson?: just right
Comments: Some of the questions seem a bit 'loaded'

Some of the questions ask for a 'Yes' or 'No' answer. Hard to answer that way with loaded questions.

Copuld be better if there was a space for the Yes and No answers to be optionally explained by the user.



Thanks and God bless!
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[m273p15c]

Hello,

Thanks for taking the time to complete our online correspondence course, "God's Sovereignty and Man's Free Will".

The original questions, followed by your answers, are included below. Occasionally, I will provide a comment or follow-up question after your answer.

I pray that you found the original questions to be thought-provoking. I hope that the follow-up comments will prove to be spiritually profitable to you.

Of course, if you would like to discuss my response in further detail, I would be glad to examine these questions more carefully in the light of God's Word. Feel free to respond directly to me, or you could make use of our online forums (see signature below).

If you do not have any more questions, I would encourage you to examine the next lesson in the series, "The Innocence and Depravity of Man":

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/corresp/study5.html

BTW, I realize that this study is a "little long". Actually, I think it is "very long". It will surely seem even longer as you try to wade through all my comments. However, I pray that you will not be discouraged by the sheer volume of comments and points for discussion. Please take your time. Work through it all, a little bit at a time. You don't have to respond to everything at once. I would rather you not. My eyes get tired too. If you can boil your concerns to a central, core point, then good - let's discuss that. If it is too much to take in all at once, then let's just start at the first point of disagreement, and work from there. I believe this important, and I am willing to do whatever it takes.

I look forward to hearing from you again.

May God bless us with a sincere love of the truth

=======================================================
Are you in search of ultimate truth? So are we!
http://www.insearchoftruth.org
http://forums.insearchoftruth.org


Below is the result of your feedback form.
It was submitted byemail on Friday, February 24, 2006 at 17:31:56
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What should be man's primary goal of this life?: To Know God and to Serve God

Agreed - Only fulfillment of the above purpose can make man whole (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)

Why did God make man?: To display God's glory to man and through man

This is a somewhat subjective question, because I do not believe the Bible clearly states exactly why God made man. Certainly, the above things that you described are accomplished in God's creation. I believe it is safe to assume it was "according to His good pleasure", since the reason for our adoption is in harmony with this (Ephesians 1:3-4). But, we may press further by asking, "What are the dictates of His good pleasure?"

Personally, I believe the reason for our creation was to produce beings who appreciated and loved God. I believe He wanted children for all the same noble reasons that earthly parents desire children: to teach, to help life grow, to help them truly succeed, to love. I consider it no accident that God provided a common example of His desired relationship, evidenced in His acceptance of the New Testament title, "Father" (Matthew 6:4, 6-15). Certainly, we see this motivation in redemption (John 3:16; I John 3:1, 4:7-10; Romans 5:6-8). However, we also see it in the original giving of the law (Deuteronomy 10:12-13). Even in the beginning, we see allusions to His desire for a relationship with us (Genesis 1:25-27; 3:8-9).

Again, I cannot speak to this point with full confidence, but I tend to believe that God sought children, whom He could love and raise, instead of merely seeking an opportunity to manifest His glory. Surely this was done, but is that the ultimate purpose of creation? I believe God is bigger than that, if not for the fact alone that He asks us to be bigger than that.

I wouldn't argue the point - just my two cents.

Does God have free will?: God's will makes choices based on the preferences and pleasures of His mind. His will is controled by His pleasures, it is not independant from his mind.

Yes this is true, but is God's mind free to determine these choices? Surely, we would all agree that God enjoys free moral agency. Although not conclusive, this should give us pause to consider the potential for us to enjoy free moral agency, since we are created in His image (Genesis 1:26-27). This fact does not necessarily imply that He did give us free will; however, it does necessarily imply that God could grant man a free moral will, like His own being. We must look to the Bible to determine which is actually the case.

Some people come to this study with a prejudiced belief that is impossible for man to have free will. However, to deny that possibility, to close one's mind against further consideration, is to deny the possibility that God has free will Himself!

How does our views of God's sovereignty and man's will affect our spiritual lives?: It determines our world view. It determines how we view God and in turn how we view the world we live in.

Exactly! And, in turn, it affects the decisions we make and how we make them! This is far more than an academic point. This teaching has vast practical implication and ramifications! It may even impact our eternal salvation!!

Is God a just and fair god? (Deuteronomy 32:4; Romans 2:11) : YES

Correct! Interestingly, God's justice and fairness is a quality that He takes extra care to demonstrate. In other words, it is important to Him that we both see, appreciate, and recognize His justice, almost as if He was on trial (Romans 3:4, 25-26). Given this, do you think God would expect us to accept a doctrine that was intrinsically and eternally unfair?

Can God lie? (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:17-18 ): NO

Absolutely right! This is an inseparable characteristic of God. What is the implication of this virtue? Please see the next question...

Can God, or the Bible, teach conflicting doctrines? (I Corinthians 14:33): NO

Amen! Since God cannot lie, the Bible, as God's Word, cannot contain any contradictory or conflicting doctrines; otherwise, at least one of any doctrine in conflict will be an error and a lie!

If a doctrine conflicts with the clear wording of Scripture (not tradition, but Scripture), what must we do with the proposed doctrine, no matter how cherished it may be?

How is God a jealous god? (Deuteronomy 4:23-24): The first commandment is "Thou shall have no other gods.." God Himself follows this law. He is the center of the universe and the only proper object of our worship. He becomes 'jealous' when we focus our worship on anything else other than Him.

Correct! But, why? Because He loves us, or because He loves Himself? Just food for thought here - not willing to hang my case on this point.

What characteristics of God are exhibited in II Peter 3:9 and Ephesians 2:4?: Trustworthy, longsuffering, and loving

Exactly!

What characteristics of God are exhibited in Ephesians 5:6, Romans 1:18, and Hebrews 10:29-31?: Just, Holy, and Righteous

Yep! You got it! These passages specifically mention "wrath", "punishment", and "vengeance".

Does God have any of the characteristics of darkness or evil? (I John 1:5): NO

Absolutely correct!

Is God Sovereign? (Isaiah 40:13-14 ; I Timothy 6:15-16): YES

Agreed! Now, do you think God can ever act without maintaining consistency with all of these characteristics? In other words, can He be just and merciful at the same time?

Can man oppose God's will? (Isaiah 43:13 ): NO

Granted! But, what if God willed that man should have free will...?

Who created and designed man? (Isaiah 45:9-10): God

Exactly!

Is man encouraged to choose God's will? (Deuteronomy 30:19; Joshua 24:15) : YES

Absolutely! But, how can man choose God's will, if He has no free choice?

How can man personally be "able" to resist temptation, if he has no free will to do good? (I Corinthians 10:13): I believe that temptations come into our lives according to the will of God. God does not directly tempt anyone to sin. James says that God does not tempt anyone but this is not meant to be interpreted as "God does not make anyone sin" -- God does make people sin -- but He uses indirect means (Satan and man's sin nature). In order to avoid temptations, you must ask God not to lead us into temptation (matthew 6:13) But keep in mind also that we should count it as joy when we endure some trials -- Blessed is he who endures temptations (James 1:2,12)

I must kindly disagree with this answer. First, I believe the question still stands: How can we be "able" to resist temptation, if God forces us to sin? We are not "able" to do anything if God removes the ability in forcing the action. Second, let us please examine the passage from James a little more closely:

"Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." (James 1:13-14)

How can God, in Whom is no darkness at all, Who is just and fair, Who cannot be tempted by evil, and Who does not tempt, ever force somebody to choose sin? If He is so distanced from sin that He would never tempt someone directly, how can we rationally accept that He would directly force the same person to sin in a temptation, which He was unwilling to directly conduct? Does this seem self-contradictory? It does to me!

Third, where in the Bible does it say that God makes man sin?

Fourth, in reference to praying to avoid temptation, how can God provide a means to avoid the very thing He is forcing us to do? Is that not self-contradictory within in His own being?

Fifth, in regards to the blessings that come from trials, please keep in mind that God often brings good out of evil. That is part of His genius; however, we should not assume that this occurrence discounts the wickedness of the evil. In other words, the end never justifies the means, even for God. For example, God saved us through Jesus' crucifixion, but does that make the Jesus' murder morally acceptable and righteous?

Has God predestined those who will go to heaven? (Ephesians 1:3-5) : YES

Agreed! The question that remains is, "Upon what basis?" What is the basis for God's predestination and election? Was it an arbitrary election according to selective identity, or was the election based upon a quality, which we could choose to exhibit? Let us keep studying to consider further... Let us be careful not to assume the basis and insert it subconsciously into our reading of the text. (Actually, we conclude this point in later lessons...)

What basis was used to determine those who would be predestined? (Ephesians 1:3-4) : His own purposes and pleasure.

Yes, this is true, but we do learn a little more from the text. Please consider, "What is the emphasized basis, or mechanism for predestination in the text?" "Is it an arbitrary election that occurs independent of works?" "Is that the point, or is something else the point?"

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved." (Ephesians 1:3-6)

Clearly, the election and predestination was made in Jesus Christ, but beyond that, what do we necessarily learn? Does this passage speak of an arbitrary election that occurred separate from human desire or actions, before time began?

I would agree that the Bible teaches predestination and election; however, I must kindly take issue with the basis that is often assumed. My polite request is this, "What is the basis for the belief that the predestination is independent of our will and choice?"

Did the decrees of God, preached by Jonah 3:4, come to pass? (Jonah 3:4, 10): NO

Correct - more on this below...

Did king Hezekiah die when God decreed? (II Kings 20:1, 5-6): NO

Correct - more on this below...

Did the events regarding David happen as God prophesied? (I Samuel 23:11-13) : NO

Correct - more on this below...

If God cannot lie and predestination be true, how can these otherwise false statements be explained?: The will of God is only what comes to pass -- not what might happen or would happen. How the events played out were exactly the way God wanted them to. Prayer does not change the will of God. what we pray is what God placed in our heart to pray, and prayer is the means of God releasing His will. Remember His will is only what actually happens in heaven or on earth. God does not change His mind, But at times God desires a threat, a prayer, and an avoidance of the threat to play out.

It is true and fair that God should not generally be held accountable for what might could have happen; however, in the above texts, God did not say these events might could happen. He said they would happen! Only a handful of explanations exist for this conundrum:

1. God first spoke based on current circumstances. When man changed the circumstances by altering the course of his actions and behavior before God, the pending consequences and events also changed.
2. God spoke out of ignorance. He did not know what was going to happen.
3. God first spoken, not out of ignorance, but out of deceit. He knew what was going to happen. Moreover, He predetermined and mandated what would happened, yet He foretold something else! Since there was never any possibility of anything different beside the final outcome, there was no basis for the original statements.

Clearly, possibility #2 is unacceptable, because it is contrary to the very definition and character of God, already established (Titus 1:2). Although possibility #3 may appear to be "loaded", I believe the conclusions are unavoidable. Such manipulation, as you suggested ("at times God desires a threat, a prayer, and an avoidance of the threat to play out"), implies that He is trying to persuade or move people in contrast to their original desire and will; however, to acknowledge such a possibility concedes the very point of our discussion - Man can and does choose a moral will in conflict with God's will. One may be able to temporarily postpone the conclusion of possibility #3 by setting up complicating roadblocks; but sooner or later, a thorough logical examination will illuminate a simplified dilemma posed by these passages, forcing us to either accept man's free will or God's dishonesty. Did God tell the truth in the first statements, or was there an assumed contingency? If there was no real contingency (man's free will), then there was no real truth in the statements, which makes them false and a lie! Since this is unacceptable, a real contingency must have existed and been understood by the listener, which was the listener's freedom to change his actions and thereby change the outcome.

If these passages represent only an appearance of free-will, but God was in fact dictating the moral actions, then to be consistent, we must accept the first statements made by God only represent the appearance of truth, and were in fact a lie!

Has God elected the saved? (I Peter 1:2; 2:9): YES

Agreed! However, again we must ask, "What is the basis of this election?" "Is it independent of our actions and desire?" Let us again be careful not to inject concepts into the text which are not there.

Can the elect earn their salvation? (Ephesians 2:8-10): NO

Granted! But, does that necessarily infer that salvation is independent of all our actions and thoughts?

Who is described as God's elect in Isaiah 42:1-3? (I Peter 2:6) And, what was the work that He was elected to do?: The elect in those verses is Jesus Christ.

Yep! So, Jesus was "elected" - Did He have free will?

Were the children of Israel elected as God's special people? (Genesis 25:22-24; Deuteronomy 4:37; 14:2): YES

Yep, again! So, they were "elected" - Did they lose that election?

Why were they destroyed and unable to enjoy the blessings of their special covenant? (Romans 10:1-3): God's will is revealed by whatever comes to pass... God does what he pleases, and He has the right to cause His elect to follow Him or fall from him.

I must kindly object by noting that you failed to answer the text:

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God." (Romans 10:1-3)

Paul prayed and desired that the Israelites to be saved. Why would Paul desire and pray for something that was "in the bag"? Why was Paul's prayer needed for them to be saved? The text answers, because they had "not submitted to the righteousness of God"! This necessarily implies that they were not saved, but it also provides the reason - failure to submit to God! How can one fail to submit to God, if He controls their will?

How can God will that someone fail to submit to His righteousness? If they follow His will by disobeying the God's righteous requirements, have they not righteously performed what was willed for them, disobedience? The very thought is irrational and almost impossible to explain, much more impossible to consider and accept.

Concerning the next question, God has the right to demand one thing and cause those demands to not be met by man. A God that tries and fails is not a God at all. The outcome is exactly according to God's will.

Agreed - except such a god must sacrifice his justness in the process. The true God has not just chosen justice, truth, and love as His characteristics, but they are inseparable from His identity and character ("God is love", I John 4:7-10, etc.) It is beyond all argument that it is unfair for a being to punish a creation for doing exactly what he willed it to do. It is equally unfair for the same being to reward others for doing exactly what he willed them to do. If this being wills different actions for each group, then he is responsible for their choices. If God is 100% sovereign, then He is 100% responsible for every sin and mistake that people make! If God makes His subjects bear the consequences of His mistakes, then He is no God, because he is no longer just.

I agree with your point that the Creator has such a power; however, you cannot rationally maintain that such a being can exercise that power with out sacrificing His just nature. This is comparable to the fact that God has the power to sin (for example, lying), but He cannot, because it is contrary to His very nature and identity (Hebrews 6:18).

Did God try to keep them from being lost? (II Chronicles 36:15-16): NO

Let us look at the passage and see what the text says:

"And the LORD God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy." (II Chronicles 36:15-16)

There are several good points embedded in this passage:

First, the Lord did indeed try to save these people. He sent warnings, even "rising early", which indicates His eager and earnest efforts. Second, it clearly states that He "had compassion". These were compassionate efforts; that cannot be denied. Did they fail? I know what Calvinism says, but what does the Bible say? Clearly these efforts failed. Why? What does that say about the effectiveness of God's efforts?

Well, they only failed if one assumes that God was trying to save them at all costs. If we assume that God "pulled out all the stops", I believe it would be fair to call these efforts a failure. However, this passage indicates that God's character has irremovable "stops", like justice, wrath, and punishment. Notice His compassion had a limit, "until the wrath of the Lord arose... till there was no remedy." The only way God could have saved these people would have been to override their free will and make the choice for them, which would not be just or fair. Therefore, God successfully reached out to these people as far as possible, maintaining His merciful and just nature. The only failure here is that of these ancient Israelites.

Finally, the fact that a remedy ceased to exist for these people implies that it once did exist. There was a time, a window of opportunity, in which a remedy existed. The window was only closed by repeated rejection of God's warnings. Therefore, if that window every existed, if even for a moment, then we must accept that these people were not irreversibly rejected from the beginning of time, because they had an opportunity to be one of God's elect, which is in conflict with Calvinism.

If the Israelites were destroyed because of their unfaithfulness, and God tried to keep it from happening, then how was their election unconditional and why could God not do what He set out to do?: Our faithfulness or unfaithfulness is determined by God alone. They were chosen (elected) unconditionally because God selected them, they did not select God. God's purpose for Israel was not to bless them unconditionally, but rather they were elected to be God's example. What God set out to do, was done exactly according to his will.

Then why did He have compassion on a people doomed for destruction? How was there ever a "remedy", if they were predetermined and unconditionally selected for destruction?

I recognize that your statements are consistent with Calvinism, but I do not understand how they are consistent with the text, or even based on it.

Why are we to take heed to the warning of I Corinthians 10? (I Corinthians 10:12): According to God's will, there are many living with a false belief that they are the children of God. We should all take heed to make certain that our election is sure (2 Peter 1:10). Who makes us stand in Christ? (2 Cor. 1:21, Rom. 14:4)

Why should we take heed? If we are elect, we cannot change it. If we are rejected, we cannot change it. How can we make an election "sure", which was already made sure before the foundation of the world? This verse teaches us to make the salvation sure, not our perception of our salvation. This seems to hurt your case, not help it. More further below...

Why did the apostle Paul discipline himself? (I Corinthians 9:27): His goal was to live what he preached

That is true, but what is the reason that Paul provides?

"But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." (I Corinthians 9:27)

How could Paul ever become disqualified, if the Lord eternally, irrevocably, and immutably qualified Him? If Paul was one of the elect, where was the danger? See question below for more...

If the great apostle Paul was in danger of being "disqualified" or a "castaway", how could his election have been considered "unconditional" and "irrevocable"?: He was never in jeopardy of losing His salvation. Paul is speaking of being disqualifed of a certain reward that will be given to the most faith Christian that ever lived on earth. The winner of that crown will immediately disqualify himself because Christ alone is worthy.

Where is the Bible support for this belief? I know it is a necessary conclusion to maintain the consistency of Calvinism, but where is this theory taught in Scripture?

Moreover, this belief is inconsistent with the context. What is the reward, or crown discussed in the context? Salvation or just a better seat in the bleachers of heaven?

"For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." (I Corinthians 9:19-22)

The preceding context describes Paul subjection in matters of expediency. Why did Paul do this? To get a better crown for these people? No! But, he says it was to "by all means save some"! The context is salvation! These people were lost and Paul was trying to save them. As we keep reading the context, where does the context shift from salvation to a better salvation, if ever?

"Now this I do for the gospel's sake, that I may be partaker of it with you. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." (I Corinthians 9:23-27)

Tracing backwards, Paul could have been "disqualified" from an "imperishable crown". From the context, what is the "imperishable crown" under discussion? Do you see anything in the passage that would warrant a shift from "salvation" to a "better salvation, but still salvation"? Is there anything in this passage to indicate that the "imperishable crown" is anything but the salvation extended by the gospel, by which Paul was trying to save people, which is discussed in the immediately preceding verses?

What kind of people deserve a punishment worse than death? (Hebrews 10:26-31; 11:4-6; II Timothy 2:18 ) What descriptions are used in the verses showing their previous good standing?: Those who reject Christ

Agreed - these people rejected Christ. However, please note that they had previously been saved. This was not their perception, but it was the Spirit's description:

• "received the knowledge of the truth"
• sanctified (past tense) by the blood of the covenant
• overthrown faith

How could sanctified saints with real faith ever be rejected?

What happened to the Galatian Christians? (Galatians 5:4; 4:19): The desired the bondage of Judaism rather than the liberty of Christ.

Yes, but in so doing, they "had fallen from grace"! Can one be saved without God's grace? If they had fallen from grace, were they then in a saved relationship with Christ?

How are we to make are election sure? (II Peter 1:10): By diliently examining ourselves. Our fruit will reflect our master.

Please notice that they are not encouraged to be diligent to "make sure of their call and election", rather they are to be diligent to "make your call and election sure". The former would potentially change the perception of one's status, while the latter would potentially change the status of the election itself.

Again, how could they change the surety of their election, if the election was independent of their works and established before time began?

If Christians are unconditionally elected, how can they make anything sure, and how could their salvation not be sure to begin with?: Salvation is certain for the elect. What we each need to make sure of is whether we are the elect or not. The deeds and motivations of the elect are distinct from the non-elect.

Although this might be a possibility, it is inconsistent with the text itself. The admonition is to make the election sure, not the perception of their election. The election itself is subject to weakening or strengthening and needs to be made sure.

What is the basis for God's change in judgment? (Jeremiah 18:7-10; II Corinthians 5:10) : His purposes are for the most part unknown. But He is faithful in what He reveals -- which is to punish evil.

God has reveled that He will change His plans to punish based on a person's actions (Jeremiah 18:7-10; II Corinthians 5:10).

Does God want anybody to be lost? Even the wicked? (II Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:23, 32) : 'want' is a very loose term. God 'wants' on multiple levels -- meaning some things he wants more than other things. His want for all to repent is a lesser desire of God and His want for only the elect to be saved. Whatever is God's greatest desire/want .. that is what His will chooses. While it is true that God wants all to be saved, it is equally true that God wants even more for only the elect to be saved. Therefore, only the elect are saved, not everyone.

II Peter 3:9 and Ezekiel 18:23, 32 do indeed establish your first point (God does not want any to be lost, even the wicked), what you call the "lesser desire". What Scripture would you use to show the existence of the higher desire? And what passage would you use to show that one is higher than the other, causing the lesser to be disregarded, as you have labeled it?

Furthermore, these texts are worded a little more strongly than has been acknowledged:

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." (II Peter 3:9)

This is much more than an hidden, unobservable, lesser desire. This desire has bubbled up to the top of His will. In fact, He wills that no-one should perish. How much more strongly would you like it to be worded? Please allow me to include the entire context of Ezekiel 18:23-32, because it is so powerful:

"Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live? But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. "Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!" (Ezekiel 18:23-32)

The entire context is one of pleading for repentance.

Contradiction #1: God says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, yet Calvinism requires that He have at least some pleasure in their death; otherwise, why not let them be part of the elect? If it is in God's hands to decide who is elect, why not make all elect? The fact that some are not elect necessitates that He had some "pleasure" that some not be elect; otherwise, He would have made them elect too!

Contradiction #2: God commands these people to "repent", "cast away from you all the transgressions", "get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit", and to "turn and live". So, when were they supposed to obey God? When He secretly fashioned them to be sinners and reprobate, forcing them to sin? Or, when He commanded them to repent? Seems like God has placed 2 contradictory sets of commands and constraints on these people. Which ones were they supposed to obey? Were they supposed to sin or to repent? Calvinism paints a conflicted and contradictory picture of God.

Why are some people lost? (Matthew 23:37; John 5:40) : God's will.

I realize you are getting tired. I am getting tired too, but let's go the extra mile and look at the passages:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Matthew 23:37)

"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life." (John 5:39-40)

Was Jesus willing for these people to be saved? Why weren't they saved? What does the text say?

List at least one condition of salvation? (John 3:15-16, 36) : The only condition is if God chooses you. Whom God chooses, He will cause to believe in Christ. Faith and repentance are results of salvation, not the causes.

Is that what John 3:15-16 says? Or, is that what Calvin said?

What do you think about the overall length of this lesson?: little long
What do you think about the overall challenge of this lesson?: just right
Comments: Some of the questions seem a bit 'loaded' Some of the questions ask for a 'Yes' or 'No' answer. Hard to answer that way with loaded questions. Copuld be better if there was a space for the Yes and No answers to be optionally explained by the user.

Thanks and God bless!

Thanks again for the diligence shown in completing this study. I pray that you will give these comments earnest prayer, study, and thought.

I look forward to hearing from you again.