Once Saved...Always Saved!

Is Calvinism taught in the Bible? Does man have free-will? Can a Christian apostatize? Discuss all related questions here.

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Once Saved...Always Saved!

Postby Marc » Mon Apr 10, 2006 11:58 pm

At first believing OSAS as true then denying it I now once again hold to my original belief that it is indeed what the Bible teaches. Below are a few passages to support this belief.

1. Psalms 37:28 - God "does not" forsake those who are saved. They are "preserved" forever.

2. John 13:10 - "He who has bathed (been saved) need only to wash his feet (Christian walk)." The bath which is salvation occurs just once while foot washing which is daily confession of sin having to do with fellowship occurs often.

3. Romans 8:35-39 - No "power" can separate the Christian from the love of God (v.38). This encompasses the "power" of our sins (1 Corinthians 15:56). No "created thing" which would include ourselves, Satan and his demons can separate the Christian from the love of God (v.39).

4. 1 Corinthians 1:8 - Even to the carnal church at Corinth (1 Corinthians 3:1-3) Paul tells them that they are "confirmed to the end" by Jesus Christ.

5. Ephesians 1:14 - The Holy Spirit is given as "pledge". Thayer describes this word (arrhabon) as "a pledge of future blessings". A pledge is a solem binding promise to do something. One of the reasons God gives the Christian the Holy Spirit is that it is His promise for the future blessings of heaven that will ultimately await them.

6. Ephesians 4:30 - Christians are sealed by the Holy Spirit "for the day of redemption".

7. 2 Timothy 1:12 - Paul is "convinced" that God is able to guard what he has entrusted to Him until the day of judgment.

8. 2 John 2 - The truth now abides in the Christian and will be with them "forever".

- Marc Taylor
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Postby sledford » Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:35 pm

A key question to ask in addressing this subject:

* Can I remove myself from God?

Consider passages such as Eze 18:24

[quote="Ez 18:24":bdurle2p]
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
[/quote:bdurle2p]
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Postby Marc » Thu Apr 27, 2006 4:16 pm

Yes you can remove yourself from fellowship (not salvation as shown from the passages I originally gave) with God and the text you cited correlates well with James 1:15 and 1 Corinthians 11:30. Continued unrepentant sin may be a cause for a premature death of the Christian.
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Postby JSM17 » Sun May 14, 2006 8:06 am

In accordance with this thread, I was wondering were everyone stood on the subject of apostacy? What is it, what is it really? Looking at the original language helps us better understand the truth about once saved always saved. I would like to articulate my argument from Galation 5 where Paul is talking to those who had recieved the liberty in Christ (saved) Yet if they tried to be justified by keeping the Law, they would be severed, estranged, seperated from Christ, fallen from grace!
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Postby Marc » Sun May 14, 2006 12:24 pm

There might be some in this church, as there are in other churches, who are mere nominal Christians. They may have made a declaration that they trusted in Christ but their true colors are showing in that they never really did trust in Christ but are in fact trusting in the Law.

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Postby JSM17 » Sun May 14, 2006 2:56 pm

Galatians 5:1
A. They are Christians, brethren, sons
1. Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
a) “Keep on standing firm” in the freedom that Christ bought for you.

b) The liberty signifies the freedom from themselves who deserve hell but have been made free from the sin in which condemns them.

C) It is because that we are children of the free that we should stand fast.

D) They became Christians through the faith, the truth made them free. John 8:32

e) Again it is important to remember that they were Christians, brethren, beloved children. 1:2, 1:11, 3:15, 4:12, 4:28, 4:31, 5:11, 5:13, 6:1, 6:18

f) They are sons, 3:7, 3:26, 4:1, 4:5, and 4:6


B.You have fallen from Grace

1. What does this mean?

a) ekpipto (ek-pip'-to); from NT:1537 and NT:4098; to drop away; specially, be driven out of one's course; figuratively, to lose, become inefficient:

b) charis (khar'-ece); from NT:5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude).

1) The very grace that saves us in Ephesians 2:8, is the same grace that we can fall from.

2) Rom 5:1-3
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
NKJV

aa) The man who stays acceptable to God stands in grace.

2. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

a) The reason they fall from grace is because they attempt to be justified by the law.

1) Justified means they seek to be right before God by obeying the law through circumcision.

2) As soon as they sought to be justified by the law they fell.

b) Estranged means: "to reduce to inactivity, to render useless," is translated "to make of none effect," in Rom 3:3,31; 4:14; Gal 3:17 (cf. akuroo, No. 1, in the same verse), and in the KJV of Gal 5:4, RV, "ye are severed" (from Christ). For the meaning and use of the word see ABOLISH and DESTROY.

1) Remember that this is something we do, we make the choice. Some say that nothing can make you lose your salvation, then they must advocate a disobedient, compulsive, habitual sinner in Christ cannot forfeit his inheritance.

or they must say that they were never saved, but further scriptures show that this is not so: 2 Peter 3:17, 18; Col.1:23; Heb. 10:26-31; John 15:1-8; 1 Corin. 9:24-29
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Postby Marc » Sun May 14, 2006 3:05 pm

As already stated not "everyone" in a church is necessarily saved.
They fell from the grace which they once professed. It was a mere profession. By seeking to be justified by the Law they thus fell from the grace they falsely professed.
I have given several passage that show that one can not lose their salvation and you have not commented on any of them.
So these responses are not incredibly long let's try this. You choose two passages where you believe show one can lose their salvation and I will choose two passages where I believe show that one can not lose their salvation.

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Postby JSM17 » Sun May 14, 2006 8:31 pm

You proclaim that one can be in the church yet not be a Christian? You proclaim that not everyone that is in the church is saved?

This is contradictive to the church that Christ died for, his church, if you are saved, a child of God you are in the church. These Galatians were added to the church they are Christians they are saved, to say that they are in the church yet not saved is contadictive to all that the N.T. teaches about the church!

So if they were Christians yet when they tried to be justified through the flesh they severed themselves from Christ



THEY FELL FROM GRACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I did not write it Paul did through the inspiration of GOD

How can one who is not in grace fall from it?

What does the word Apostacy mean?
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Postby Marc » Sun May 14, 2006 9:31 pm

savage wolves will come in "among you" (Acts 20:29).
there will also be false teachers "among you" (2 Peter 2:1).

- Marc
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Postby JSM17 » Fri May 19, 2006 7:25 pm

The once saved always saved is a false doctrine, anyone that is not faithful unto death will not recieve that crown!


Rev 2:10
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
NASU

What happens if you are not faithful, does this mean you were never a Christian?

2 Peter 3:17-18

17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

These were saved people that Peter is talking to, why is Peter worried about them if they could never fall from steadfastness?

Col 1:23
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister


I wonder what Paul means here when he says "are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel"

Even going back to Galatians you can see that these BRETHREN were hindered from obeying the truth! What happens when we stop obeying the truth Paul? You severe yourself from Christ. What does cut off mean to you? Apparently Paul thought it was important to speak to these BRETHREN about the possibility of erroring to the point of FALLING FROM GRACE. If not then why would Paul bother with them at all, they cannot lose their salvation so why bother with them?

As a matter of fact according to the once saved always saved THEORY one can be saved and become the most vile person known to man a still receive the gift of eternal life regardless of his disobedience! Right, I can be saved and be a drunk, I can be saved and be a child abuser, I can be saved and murder. Those who think this is extreme for a Christian, tell me what Christian has not back slide so far as to become a vile person all over again. It is a choice you have to make to be faithful till the end. To take away any responsibility from a Christian will lead Hhim to destruction just as the judaizing teachers in the Galatian churches became, they were erring Christians teaching a false Gospel.


What is the definition of an APOSTATE?????????????????????????? :?:


FALL, FALLEN, FALLING, FELL
3. apostasia NT:646, "a defection, revolt, apostasy," is used in the NT of religious apostasy; in Acts 21:21, it is translated "to forsake," lit., "thou teachest apostasy from Moses." In 2 Thess 2:3 "the falling away" signifies apostasy from the faith. In papyri documents it is used politically of rebels. Note: For "mighty fall, Rev 18:21, RV, see VIOLENCE.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

From the faith one falls, how can one fall from something he is not part of???????????????????????????? :?:

The doctrine of once saved always saved is a false doctrine!
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Postby Marc » Fri May 19, 2006 10:42 pm

Interesting ploy that you are engaged in. Ignore my original post and just keep giving more passages which you you (incorrectly) believe a person can lose their salvation. As I wrote earlier I will choose just two passages that declare this God inspired truth. They are Romans 8:35-39 and 2 John 2. When you address these I will respond to "any" two passages that you put forward that runs contrary to this doctrine.

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Postby JSM17 » Sat May 20, 2006 8:16 pm

Rom 8:35-39
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 Just as it is written,

"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."

37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NASU

What does this verse have to do with OSAS?

The context is talking about the love of Christ, there is no mention of never losing you salvation, the context is talking about LOVE.

Does not God love all his creation, who can seperate us from His love for us? No one. Even if we are degenerate sinners God still loves us! This passage does not prove your theory.

This scripture is even better at denouncing your theory:

2 John 2
2 for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
NASU

Let us continue in 2 John and see how he continues his thoughts on matters pertaining to OSAS:

2 John 8-9
8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
NASU

What happens to the one that does not abide in HIM in His teaching?

So really how do these scriptures advocate your theory?

I have know answered your questions , now you can deal with mine.

Thank you
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Postby Marc » Sat May 20, 2006 8:55 pm

Concerning Romans 8:35-39 no created thing can separate the Christian from the love of God. If we can lose our salvation by listening to and obeying the voice of Satan and/or his demons then we lost it because of created things the very thing that this passage denies.
Does God love Satan (a creature)?
Concerning 2 John 2 you skipped over it and went to verses 8 and 9. Verse 8 speaks of receiving a "full reward". Christians will be given different degrees of awards in heaven. It has nothing to do with salvation as you espouse. Verse 9 refers to verse 7 - they weren't saved to begin with. 2 John 2 still stands the truth is in them and will be with them forever.

You didn't write what two passages you wanted me to address.

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Postby JSM17 » Sat May 20, 2006 9:00 pm

I would like you to explain how one can fall from the faith if he was never in faith.

Define APOSTATE! Honestly!
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Postby Marc » Sat May 20, 2006 10:08 pm

Another way to look at Galatians 5:4 - Just as Paul stated earlier the impossibilty of being justified by the Law (Galatians 2:16) so too he is stating that impossibilty of falling from grace. Both are purely hypothetical. You can't be justified by the Law just as you can't fall from grace.
Apostasy is the leaving of the faith. We see plenty of examples of this by several churches who once preached the gospel and held to a strong view of the inspired word of God. Now some of them approve of homosexuality and give the OK to abortion.

You never responded to my comments in the last letter.

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Postby JSM17 » Sat May 20, 2006 10:38 pm

Gal 5:3-4
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
NASU

Did you say HYPOTHETICAL?!?!? :?

So hypothetically there were no Judaizing teachers teaching a false perverted gospel.

So hypothetically there was no threat of these Christians who perverted the Gospel and pursued these other Christians in following them through the means of teaching them that they must be circumcised in order to please God.

Hypothetically there were non who saught to be justified by the law? Right, that is why Paul went through all this trouble because all this was hypothetical.

There were Christians who were taking on things that they had left behind when they came to Christ, when they became sons.

Was Paul worried for nothing?

Gal 5:1
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
NASU

I guess hypothetically Paul means that he does not want them to be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

You may get your idea of this hypothetical thought by the next verses but there were
Christians that had already done this, they are called Judaizing teachers.

Gal 5:2-3
2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
NASU

Impossible yes and hypothetical but this does not negate the fact that there were Judaizing teachers who had already done these things, therefore they had fallen from Grace been seperated from Christ. Does this mean God hated them?
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Postby Marc » Sun May 21, 2006 8:43 am

Did Paul believe that one could be justified by the Law as he stated in Galatians 5:4 even though he just wrote that this is impossible (Galatians 2:16)?

A conversation is a two way not a one way street. You are still dodging Romans 8:35-39 and 2 John 2.

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Postby JSM17 » Sun May 21, 2006 9:42 am

Gal 2:16
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
NASU

The idea lies within the trying, whether it can be done is not the point. Whether or not these Judaizers knew the truth of their error is not the point, Paul told them what they did and they were forcing their ideas on others. Whether or not they could be justified by the law does not negate the fact that they did what they did, they tried, so therefore they chose the law over Christ, they chose the yoke of bondage rather than the liberty that Christ brought to them.

Here is a quote by you from an earlier post "There might be some in this church, as there are in other churches, who are mere nominal Christians. They may have made a declaration that they trusted in Christ but their true colors are showing in that they never really did trust in Christ but are in fact trusting in the Law."

If this be true then they never were Christians to begin with, you called them NOMINAL CHRISTIANS
Either they are Christians or they are not, saved or not saved, if they are saved whether Nominal or not they are Christians right? At least by most peoples definition they are saved upon their own subjective trust in Christ, but thats another issue.

These Galatian churches were in danger of APOSTACY AND DIVISION, in which the Judaizing teachers who were Chritians teaching a perverted Gospel, was there a danger of this or was Paul mistaken by writting.

Why did Paul write if there was no danger of anything?
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Postby Marc » Sun May 21, 2006 11:37 am

Concerning Galatians 5:4 I wrote "another way to look at this".

This is now more than one time I have asked you to respond to what I have written about Romans 8:35-39 and 2 John 2. We'll have to wait and see if you ever get around to doing it.

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Postby JSM17 » Wed May 24, 2006 5:51 am

I dealt with those passages, now let the people know what your definition of Apostacy is.

Is it one who falls from THE FAITH?
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Postby Marc » Wed May 24, 2006 10:36 am

No you didn't really address those two passages. You made an attempt at it but I refuted what you wrote and then you just dropped it and only wanted to stick with the passages you brought up.

In terms of apostasy a person who is truely a Christian can not apostatize (1 John 2:19).

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Postby JSM17 » Sat May 27, 2006 8:38 am

1 John 2:18-19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
NASU

They were not Christians, John makes this clear, they were never of the Faith, so they could never fall from that in which they were never a part of.

If you want me to spend hours researching those two passages then I would suggest picking one and starting a post just dealing with that passage, not moving from the context just focusing on that passage. No running comentaries, it seems that you want me to follow your rules but you do not want to follow your own rules.

For the sake of those on the outside looking in, just remember that that thoe who fall from the faith had the faith and after they fall from it the are no loger part of it until they meet God's requirement for reconcilation. Its called Apostacy the falling away from the faith. One cannot fall from that in which they were never apart of. Its would be like me saying that I fell from the top of the building but I was never up there.

Once you define the term as falling from THE FAITH, you must define what it means to be in THE FAITH, does it mean you are saved, or does it mean that one was not really saved because he fell, and since one holds to the OSOS theory he cannot acknowlege this because it goes contrary to his belief, it is called the leaky bucket syndrome, one leacky bucket helps the other until you have so many leaky bucket you have no were to turn.

Dear friend out there, if salvation was unconditional then why worry about our walk, our conduct, our way of life, if you give kids the option to do whatever they want with no consequences then they will do what they want opposing what ever is in there way. This principle works the same for Gods children, assuming that you are in CHRIST in THE Faith and there are no consequences to your actions, your walk your obedience then why worry about what you do.

It is interesting that Jesus talkes about being judged on your works, why they cannot be important if nothing you do can cause any problems with you and God.


Once you are saved there is nothing that you can do to lose your salvation, because you have no free will, you have no free will to choose to give up your salvation. Does this sound like Gods grace, God's love, if He gave us the free will to choose life or death, then why would He take that away from us after salvation?
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Postby Marc » Sat May 27, 2006 1:04 pm

I don't want to follow my own rules. How so? I am sticking to my two passages and responding to your two passages.
We will be judged by our works but that has nothing to do with salvation but of the rewards we will receive.
1 John 2:19 says that if anyone does not remain they were never saved to begin with. I have no idea who will remain but that does not take away from the fact that the saved are always saved.
You avoided Romans 8:35-39 and 2 John 2 (again).
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Postby JSM17 » Sun May 28, 2006 12:21 am

It is truly a tragedy that so many Christian people labor under the illusion that it is impossible for them ever to be lost. Unfortunately, though, the Calvinistic dogma of “once-saved, always-saved,” has infected the brotherhood of Christ - at least practically, if not intellectually. It is a grim reality that there may be more lost people in our Sunday morning assemblies, who are identified as “members,” than there are those visiting with us - who have never obeyed the first principles of the gospel.


New Testament Evidence for Apostasy
Though denominationalists dispute the matter, the New Testament is emphatic in asserting that a Christian can depart from the faith and become lost. Simon was a sorcerer who lived in Samaria. He heard the gospel and submitted to its conditions. His conversion is described in precisely the same language as those of his fellows in the city (cf. Acts 8:12-13).

Subsequently, however, Simon became intrigued with the apostles’ ability to convey spiritual gifts by means of the imposition of their hands. He attempted to bribe them so that he too could accomplish this feat. In a stinging rebuke, Peter informed him that, with such a disposition, he would “perish” (8:20). A.T. Robertson, a Baptist writer, says: “The natural meaning of Peter’s language is that Simon was on the road to destruction” (Word Pictures, Vol. III, p. 107).

Without piling up the evidence, we merely introduce the following:


“My brethren, if any among you err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know that he who converts a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins” (Jas. 5:19-20).
Note that:


“brethren” are in view;
a brother can “err”;
the erring one needs to be “converted”;
such conversion results in “saving” the apostate’s soul;
the destiny of the wayward soul is “death.”
This is not physical death - which all experience - but spiritual death, i.e., eternal separation from God in hell (Rev. 20:14; cf. 2:11).


The Route Back to God
There are degrees of apostasy from the Lord. Some are stone-cold dead; there is no sign of spiritual life in them. Others are “lukewarm” (cf. Rev. 3:15-16), maintaining some semblance of identification with the church. In either case, these precious souls are lost. The question to be considered, therefore, is this: Once a Christian has wandered from the path of safety, what must he do to return?

Just as there are definite steps which on must take in order to become a child of God initially, e.g., believing, repenting of sin, confessing one’s faith, and being immersed in water (Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38, etc.), just so, there are requirements to being restored to Heaven’s favor. Let us reflect upon the following.


Belief
Apostasy from the Christian Way is fundamentally a matter of the loss of faith. In the parable of the Sower, Jesus spoke of those who “for a while believe,” and then in a time of temptation, “fall away” (Lk. 8:13). The writer of Hebrews admonished: “Take heed, brothers, lest perhaps there should he in any one of you a wicked heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God” (3:12). Note the connection between “unbelief” and “falling away.”

A careful study of the term “belief,” as that word and its equivalents are employed in the book of Acts, reveals that true faith involves a submission to the Lord’s will (cf. Acts 16:33-34). Correspondingly, when one ceases to be obedient, there is a sense in which he has stopped believing.

The first step of the prodigal, therefore is a rekindling of his faith. And since it is the case that the ultimate source of faith is the word of God (Rom. 10:17), the Scriptures must be brought to bear again upon the wayward heart. It may he more difficult to ignite faith the second time around, but there is no substitute. The fallen saint must have the historical facts of the gospel instilled once more in his heart, he must trust the Savior, and commit himself to a program of fidelity. “Faith,” without the obedience that is supposed to accompany such, is futile (cf. Jas. 2:14-26).


Repentance
Once faith has been planted in the erring brother’s soul again, it should move him to repentance. In the case cited earlier, Simon was told to “repent” as a prelude to forgiveness (Acts 8:22). But what is repentance?

The term “repentance” is used in at least two senses in the New Testament. Occasionally it signifies simply deep emotion, the contrition one has when he realizes he has sinned against his Creator. John the Baptizer spoke of this emotion, and cautioned that “fruit” must accompany it (Mt. 3:8).

“Repentance” also may signify the transformation of life that results from sorrow. The Jews who were assembled on Pentecost already had hearts that were “pricked,” yet they still were commanded to “repent” (Acts 2:37-38). Paul argued that “godly sorrow” produces “repentance” (2 Cor. 7:10). Clearly, “repentance” is something in addition to emotion; it entails a change of conduct.

Any experienced Christian leader can cite numerous instances where wayward church members allegedly “repented,” when no modification of conduct was discernible at all. Mere words do not constitute a return to God.


Confession
The word “confess” derives from a compound Greek term, homologeo. The roots are: homo, “same,” and leo, “to speak.” The term carries the idea of agreement, assent. In the context of our discussion, it means this: When a Christian is convicted by the Scriptures of transgression, he must humbly agree with the divine assessment, and be willing to say so!

The apostle John wrote: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 Jn. 1:9). If one refuses to concede his sin, what then?

There are three possible venues of confession:

to God alone;
to God and to other persons - who may have been victims of the sin, or privy to it;
a general public acknowledgment.
Let us think about each of these for a moment.

First, when one has sinned a sin that is against God alone, or perhaps known only to the Omniscient One, the matter can be settled between the principals involved. For example, if one, in anger, mentally lashes out at the Lord (as Job did on occasion), he need merely, in his petition to the Father, ask for forgiveness. It is not necessary to “blab” mental sins to the entire world, as a former President did, for instance, when he told the whole of society of his spiritual lapses of lust for some women. As a minister I’ve had folks respond to the invitation, only to confess the most private infractions. Frequently I’ve had to ask: “Do others know of this?” When the reply is in the negative, I tell them that there is no need to “advertise” this circumstance. A general statement is then made to the congregation and prayer is offered for the agonizing soul.

Second, when our sin is known to others, we are obligated to confess the fault - at least to those who are privy to the situation. Altercations that are private should be settled between “him and thee alone” (Mt. 18:15). Occasionally, though, it is the case that a brother sins against another, but the transgressor does not have the courage to approach the offended party directly, acknowledging wrong and asking pardon. Rather, he will walk down the church aisle and make a generic confession: “I have done and said things against others that I shouldn’t have; I ask for your prayers.” That is not the way to remedy a personal sin against another.

Third, there is the matter of public confession. Sometimes one’s sin is so widely identified that nothing but a public confession will suffice to satisfy the matter.

Near the conclusion of his third missionary campaign, Paul came to the city of Ephesus. As a result of his teaching, a church was established. These saints were zealous initially, with a genuine love for the Lord (cf. Rev. 2:4). Some of them, though, became entangled again in their old habits - apparently reverting to “magical” practices (for which Ephesus was known).

According to Luke’s record, though, they were convicted of their error, and they came “confessing and declaring their deeds” (Acts 19:18). The sense of this passage seems to be this: These erring brethren openly acknowledged what had been widely known, i.e., their sinfulness in practicing magical crafts. Additionally, they brought their little scrolls, containing ritual inscriptions, and burned them “in the sight of all” (19:19). Lenski says that the implication of this language is that Paul was directing the procedure (Acts of the Apostles, p. 799).

Some see the term “deeds” as a reference to the secret incantations of their sorcery practices (F.F. Bruce, Acts, p. 359). McGarvey also takes the position that these brethren were merely exposing the magical formulas of their pre-Christian activities (New Commentary, II, p. 157). We must respectfully disagree. This view does not appear to comport with the term “confessing,” which stands separate from the “declaring.” A Christian does not need to “confess” what he knows was forgiven at the time of his immersion (Acts 2:38; 22:16). Better is the view that these were new converts who continued to condone and/or practice these “deeds” after their primary obedience to the gospel (see: Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, p. 783).

That brings us to this question. How is it that some brethren fantasize that they can abandon the Lord’s service - for weeks on end - and then, ultimately smitten by conscience, silently slip back into a regular church routine, without so much as a word of confession that they have neglected the Christian responsibilities?

Those who have strayed from faithful duty must concede that wrong, and somehow make their renewed disposition know to the church.

They might respond to the public invitation at the conclusion of a service. They may ask the elders to announce their penitence to the congregation. Or they could request that a statement be published in the bulletin, etc. The manner of their acknowledgement is a matter of expediency; the necessity of it is a point of law.

“Time” per se does not transform apostasy into fidelity. One cannot hope that God will simply “forget” a breach of fildelty, and so ignore the lack of prescribed procedure involved in restoration.

We cannot trifle with the Lord - who can both “forget” our sins, and yet “remember” our failure to obey (see Jer. 14:10).

There is a passage in one of John’s epistles that is germane to this discussion. The apostle writes.


“If any man see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: not concerning this do I say that he should make request” (1 Jn. 5:16).
This text, among other things, suggests there are those for whom we may, and should petition God’s forgiveness. By way of contrast, there are those for whom such efforts are futile. In the first instance, the brother is not persistently sinning (present tense) toward (pros) death (spiritual destruction). On the other hand, there is sin toward death, i.e. unrestrained rebellion. The distinguishing difference obviously is this: In the former case the brother confesses his sin and turns therefrom (1 Jn. 1:9). In the other instance, the apostate pursues in his rebellion.

A case in point is found in the Corinthian correspondence. It is rather apparent that the brother in Corinth, who had so scandalized the church by his flagrant fornication (1 Cor. 5), had, at a later time, repented and openly acknowledged his wrong. And so the brethren were encouraged to forgive and comfort him (cf. 2 Cor. 2:6-7).

How can one pray for a brother’s actual forgiveness, if he has no knowledge that the offender has conformed to God’s law of pardon? Under normal circumstances, confession authenticates the sincerity of the penitent’s heart.

In summary: When one’s sins are strictly personal and private, he is not required to broadcast them. On the other hand, when a person’s transgressions involve other people and are widely known, they must be resolved in a more public format. Silent meditation will not suffice.


Prayer
Finally, the penitent is instructed to pray for forgiveness, which, ultimately, only God can grant. We ought, therefore, to pray for ourselves (Acts 8:22), and then request others to petition the Lord on our behalf (Jas. 5:16). We have been assured that when we sin, Christ, as our Advocate, will mediate for us, and that his blood will cleanse our wickedness (1 In. 1:7).


Conclusion
Here is a sobering reality. Just as there are many who believe they have conformed to the divine plan of salvation in becoming a Christian - but actually have not; even so, there are members of the church who, perhaps unknowingly, have neglected God’s plan of salvation for his lost children. Each Christian
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Postby Marc » Sun May 28, 2006 6:07 am

I was intent on replying to your misunderstandings but then I couldn't help but notice you are still hiding ducking and dodging from Romans 8:35-39 and 2 John 2.

A conversation is a two way not a one way street.
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Postby JSM17 » Sun May 28, 2006 7:52 am

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The first thing that should jump out at us, is that these are all external things mentioned. True, no OUTSIDE force can separate us from the love of God. But that does not negate our free will.

Notably absent from verse 35 are the words iniquity and sin. The psalmist said "if I regard iniquity in my heart, the LORD will not hear me". It is written in "Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear"

The passage also speaks about the love of God. The scriptures are very clear, that even the unsaved are loved by God. That in itself, is no promise that they will endure until the end.

Marc do you have free will?

2 John 2
2 for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
NASU

Did you explain why you thought this helped you and your theory?

How does this verse help the statments in verse 8?


2 John 8-9
8 Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. 9 Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
NASU

This is within the context of your verse for OSAS how does it connect together? These are Christians he is talking to, he says watch yourselves that you do no LOSE, MAY, ABIDES.
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Postby Marc » Sun May 28, 2006 2:46 pm

Who would want us to lose our salvation? Satan and his demons. So if they could convince us to listen to and obey them (and thus disobey God) they have separated us from the love of Christ which this passage denies they can do.
Do you read what I write in my posts? In terms of 2 John 2 (in which you have not addressed) you once again went to verse 8 and I already explained this. It is talking about receiving a "full" reward. Rewards "of" salvation are in view not the thought of keeping/losing salvation itself.

- Marc
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Postby JSM17 » Sun May 28, 2006 9:15 pm

Just because I do not see a passage the way you do does not mean I have not given a serious thought or try. I have looked at Romans 8 many times, even today I realized that Paul says "Who" and then proceeds to talk about things and not a person. Did you notice that these things are all external. There is nothing external that can seperate you from God's Love. That is the point that Paul is making. He is not talking about one choosing to nullify the relationship he has with Christ.

What do you do with free will?

I responded to 2 John 2, and I do not see your point, if you think that this passage teaches once saved always saved I do not see it.

If I realized tomorrow that we are once saved always saved by any passage then thats what I would teach and believe, but I do not turn to every whim that man brings to me, I will concider things, but I do not jump to other people theories or ideas. Sometimes it takes people years to see certain truths about things.


To me there are to many variables dealing with the aspects of choosing to turn away from God.

What does it mean to shipwreck your salvation. These were Christians and they shipwrecked their faith!

1 Tim 1:18-20

This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare,19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck,20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Are there not conditions of abiding? remaining faithful?, obedient unto death?

Acts 8:18-24
18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." 20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money! 21 "You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God. 22 "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 "For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity."
NASU

Here was a Christian who chose to act in a way that was contrary to God, he was in the bondage of iniquity, as a erring Christian one can choose to remain in a state of bondage of iniquity. Can one go to heaven being in bondage of iniquity? One can be a Christian and error to the point of Apostacy, fall from the faith.

It seems very calvinistic to say that one cannot choose Christ and one cannot choose to seperate from Christ.

Conversations are a two way street but if the person does not like what you are saying and tells you that you are not holding that converstion up to there expectations the conversation goes sour quickly.

Your two passages have been looked at and thought upon and responded to.

When it come down to it your definition of apostacy does not even exsist.

You said "In terms of apostasy a person who is truely a Christian can not apostatize"

All the greek scholars define as one falling from the faith, who is right the Greek scholars or you?

I think the Bible is correct that one can be severed from Christ Gal.5:4 and the Greek scholars are correct in their understanding of Apostacy.
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Postby Marc » Sun May 28, 2006 9:52 pm

I haver no problem that the things in Romans 8 are external. Satan would love for a Christian to lose their salvation and would do everything possible to accomplish this goal. But if he is successful then he is the cause of separating the Christian from God's love and this passage declares that this is impossible. Thus a Christian is "always" saved.
What do I do with free will? I believe in it. Those who say they are Christians and then renounce this claim would fall under 1 John 2:19.
2 John 2 the truth abides in the Christian and will be with them forever. Just earlier in his previous epistle John tells us that the Spirit is the truth (1 John 5:7 NASB, 1977).
In terms of 1 Timothy 1:18-20 they were to be handed over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that their spirit may be saved (1 Corinthians 5:5). In fact, even in 1 Corinthians we are told that it is possible to be "carnal" but at the same time to be "in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1). Carnal but in Christ - that doesn't mix well if one can lose their salvation.
Yes one can be a Christian in the bondage of iniquity. In 1 Corinthians 11 Christians were killed by God because they abused the Lord's Supper.
In terms of the Greek scholars that doesn't mean much compared with 1 John 2:19. If you choose to separate from Christ you never chose Christ to begin with.
Already responded to Galatians 5:4. Paul is no more saying that a person can fall from grace than he is saying that a person can be justified by the Law.
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Postby JSM17 » Tue May 30, 2006 8:59 pm

Rom 11:17-24
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
NASU

Rom 11:17-24
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
NASU

John 15:1-6
" I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 " You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 " Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
NASU
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Postby JSM17 » Tue May 30, 2006 8:59 pm

Rom 11:17-24
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
NASU


John 15:1-6
" I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 " You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 " Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
NASU

It seems to me that The Lord wants us to know that if we are a part of Him (part of the vine or part of the tree) if you do not abide in Him or stand strong or do not produce fruit you will be cut off. It is about abiding in the obedience that God calls us to obey.

If you do not stand you will fall from the faith.
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Postby Marc » Wed May 31, 2006 5:37 am

John 15 refers to people like Judas and other false Christians.
Romans 11:22 Paul is referring to then Gentiles as "a group". If the Jews could fall out of favor with God so could they.

"Carnal" yet "in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1).

No creaed thing can separate the Christian from the love of God and Satan is a created thing (Romans 8:35-39).

2 John 2.
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Postby JSM17 » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:04 am

I GUESS YOU BELIEVE THAT CHRIST WAS WRONG WHEN HE SAID THAT THOSE WHO DO NOT PRODUCE FRUIT WILL BE CUT OFF.

ARE YOU A BRANCH ARE YOU PART OF CHRIST?

IF YOU DO NOT THE THINGS HE SAID THEN YOU WILL BE REMOVED.

GOD LOVES ALL BUT GOD WILL NOT TOLERATE A CHRISTIAN WHO CHOSSES TO BE HABITUALLY DISOBEDIENT TO HIM!

HOW DOES ONE QUENCH THE H.S.? WHAT DOES QUENCH MEAN?

YOU STILL HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION TO WHAT DOES APOSTATE MEAN, NOT YOUR MEANING BUT THE REAL MEANING.
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Postby Marc » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:18 am

No Christ was never wrong. All false Christians will be cut off. I guess you don't believe God when He writes that no created thing can separate us from His love and that the truth will be in the Christian forever.

If a Christian is disobedient to Him He will discipline them as a "son" (Hebrews 12:6). If God calls a person His son are they saved or unsaved?

To quench the Holy Spirit means to dampen His effects in one's life or in the lives of others.

An apostate is one who renounces his/her faith - something to which those who are truely Christians can not do (1 John 2:19).
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Postby JSM17 » Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:04 pm

Quench
NT:4570
sbennumi (sben'-noo-mee); a prolonged form of an apparently primary verb; to extinguish (literally or figuratively):
KJV - go out, quench.

Either one is a Christian or he is not, Christ spoke of those in the the vine or branch, never have those who were not Christians ever been a part of the vine or the branch. If they are a part of it then they are Christians, if they decide not to follow in obedience to Christ then Christ said that He would cut them off. Why would Christ have to cut off non-Christians, what purpose would it serve to cut off that in Which was never a part of the branch, vine or tree.

It would be like saying that Israel was never apart of Gods plan because they were severd from the tree and we were grafted in, but if we choose to be arogant about it He can cut us off also.

If you have conflict between two passages that seem not to fit then you must figure out were you have gone wrong in your interpretation.

Never being seperated from the love of God has nothing to do with you seperating yourself from Him, He will still love you, even if you do not wish to follow and obey. You miss the point of Romans 8 which does not deal with never losing your salvation.
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Postby Marc » Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:13 pm

In 2 Timothy 1:6 Timothy was told to "kindle afresh" the gift of God in him. This doesn't mean that Timothy's gift was now "snuffed out". Rathaer, he ought to keep the fire of his gift burning ever brighter (fresher) instead of neglecting it (1 Timothy 4:14). This equally applies to the Christian's possession of the Holy Spirit.
John 15 can apply to Judas and those who fell away from following Christ in John 6.
Satan would be the one responsible for separating the Christian. For he tempts us and if we succumb then he would no doubt rejoice having accompished his goal. But this passage denies that he can separate us from the love of God. Thus one can not be separated.

2 John 2 truth in us and with us forever.
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Postby JSM17 » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:54 am

Marc is wrong about this topic and refuses to see how God truly works in our lifes after one is truly saved, yes one must truly be saved before one can choose to remove himself from God.

Before one must worry himself about falling from the faith "Apostacia", one must be saved.

If you are interested about this salvation e- mail me

jeffmiller17@sbcglobal.net
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