Romans 9 article and mental gymnastics

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Romans 9 article and mental gymnastics

Post by email » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:09 am

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You are reaching and doing so much gymnastics to that passage. I understand your point was God electing nations but nations are comprised of individuals, also elect. And according to

Ephesians 1 God chose us after the counsel of His will, not because he saw we would be penitent in the future. A person who is not elect will not "will" or "run" or show any penitence because that is the work of God drawing an elect person.

Sorry but you are gravely mistaken. The reason God is pleased with is reason with His sovereignty in mind first, as was His goal for Nebuchadnezzar that he realize God does whatever He wills, in heaven and among men.

It is in equity that you would ascribe to man, the clay, the power to shape the Potter.
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Romans 9

Post by m273p15c » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:43 pm

Thanks for the good question and feedback.

I am glad you agree that Romans 9:6-13 are dealing with the election of nations, but you did not address the goal of the election. The Jewish nation was indeed elected, but unto what? Were they collectively elected unto individual salvation, or were they elected to be the national host of Abraham's Seed of promise, the Messiah?

Let's test the theory that the entire nation of Hebrews were elected unto salvation. And, it must be the entire nation, because there were no limits mentioned in Romans 9, and would not such limits detract from the Lord's sovereignty? Then, how would we explain this condemnation of Judas Iscariot, a Jew?
Now as they were eating, He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me." And they were exceedingly sorrowful, and each of them began to say to Him, "Lord, is it I?" He answered and said, "He who dipped his hand with Me in the dish will betray Me. The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, "Rabbi, is it I?" He said to him, "You have said it." (Matthew 26:21-25 NKJV)

Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. (John 6:70-71 NKJV)

Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve. So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them. (Luke 22:3-4 NKJV)

And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." (Acts 1:24-25 NKJV)
Or, how about this severe condemnation of the scribes and Pharisees?
"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." (Matthew 23:13-15 NKJV)
If these Jews or any Jews were condemned to hell, then did not the Lord's national election of Israel fail? Or, could Romans 9:6-13 concern the national election of Israel in God's providence to serve as the progenitor for the Messiah and guardians of the Old Law (Romans 3:1-2; 9:3-4)?

About Ephesians 1, I wholeheartedly agree that there is indeed an election, but who was chosen, how were they chosen, and unto what? We must be careful that we do not read our prejudices and biases into a passage. Is Ephesians 1 dealing with an individual election apart from any works or conditions, or is it dealing with the corporate election of saints in Christ? Is the emphasis on the individual identity or the means of the election? You can read more here: ... ians_1_5_6

Yes, God alone is in a position to define and reveal Himself. However, if we emphasize His sovereignty to the point of ignoring and even contradicting His revelation of His just character, then are we not just as guilty of trying to shape God into our image or preconceived notion? Your admonition is appreciated, but I do not share your preconceived notions of God. Therefore, if you cannot prove your model of God from Scripture, personal appeals to your concept of God will not move me.

With that in mind, how do you explain Ezekiel 18:1-32?

I look forward to hearing your verses and reasoning.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12),

May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)

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