Mark Shepherd wrote:I'm pretty sure that Paul wouldn't have quoted lines from Einstein or provided the laws of inertia from Isaac Newton to prove the existence of God. If so, then perhaps he was missing the point of the Nazarene — as well as anyone else who feels they have provide evidence of their "faith," to win or be in defense to someone else.
When confronted with those who did not even believe in the authority of Scripture, Paul did reference and argue from evidence outside of Scripture, plus he used miracles to confirm his authority:
Luke, the inspired historian, wrote:And in Lystra a certain man without strength in his feet was sitting, a cripple from his mother's womb, who had never walked. This man heard Paul speaking. Paul, observing him intently and seeing that he had faith to be healed, said with a loud voice, "Stand up straight on your feet!" And he leaped and walked. Now when the people saw what Paul had done, they raised their voices, saying in the Lycaonian language, "The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!" And Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Zeus, whose temple was in front of their city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, intending to sacrifice with the multitudes. But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, who in bygone generations allowed all nations to walk in their own ways. Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness." And with these sayings they could scarcely restrain the multitudes from sacrificing to them. (Acts 14:8-18)
First, notice the use of miracles, but second, notice how Paul calls attention to God's witness to us through creation!
Again, notice how Paul deals with the pagan Athenians:
Luke, the inspired historian wrote:Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. ... for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. (Acts 17:22-29)
Paul used both the expanse of creation and even their own philosophers to show the foolishness of idolatry.
Read the book of Acts. Virtually every recorded encounter begins with preaching that is based on logic, reason, and evidence, whether it is miracles, Scripture, fulfilled prophecy - or even nature.
Now, I am not saying that we should pull out our college physics, chemistry, and biology books to reach the lost?! No! But, we have to start where someone is! We cannot quote Scripture to someone who denies its inspiration. And, we cannot argue from the nature of God to the atheist. We have to start on common ground. Or, using the passage from a previous post, "To the Jew, I became a Jew ...".
Finally, keep in mind it was God who saw fit to provide miracles and fulfilled prophecy as evidence, witness to the identity of Jesus, validate the authority of the apostles, and confirm the Word:
... how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Hebrews 2:3-4)
John, the apostle, wrote:If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. ... I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish -- the very works that I do -- bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. ... You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. (John 5:31-39)
To deny the significance and need for evidence, you must either deny the wisdom of the Lord or the inspiration of Scriptures!
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Can Christians reach others by their example? Yes, of course:
Peter wrote:Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. (I Peter 3:1-2)
However, this is a tactic of last resort, when words fail (
"if some do not obey the word"). Nowhere do I see people evangelizing
just by saying,
"Look at me. I'm a good person. Don't you want to be a good person like me." (Even then, that would be an argument of persuasion.) No, they
evangelized by telling the "good news". When people disagreed, first century Christians would argue - not for pride, glory, etc. - but, for the salvation of the disputant and those who quietly listened:
Luke, the inspired historian, wrote:Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke. (Acts 6:9-10)
And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple. ... And he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus and disputed against the Hellenists, but they attempted to kill him. (Acts 9:26-29)
And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question. ... Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them ... (Acts 15:1-7)
I believe the Scriptures are very clear. However, the part that concerns me is your willingness to quickly dismiss some passages while clinging to others:
Mark Shepherd wrote:If you believe that you have to make a defense for yourself for your Christian cause, then I'm sure christians such as yourself should probably take that above verse very literally.
How else would you take it? Figuratively? Upon what basis? You see, we should have consistent rules for interpreting which language is figurative and which is literal; otherwise, we risk our integrity by subjectively throwing out any passage that refutes our cherished doctrine, because it is "figurative". ... I
try to interpret the Bible figuratively as I interpret all literature and language - only when the context demands it. For examples, John said that his message was one of "signs" and "figures" (
Revelation 1:1-3, 10). Ezekiel's and Daniel's fantastic dreams and visions are clearly figurative.
Mark Shepherd wrote:Interesting verse but I don't see how it justifies using "science" to validate things that were taken for pure acts of faith two thousand years ago.
I believe your notion of faith is misguided. Faith is trust based on evidence. God has provided sufficient evidence to garner our trust. However, we do not know many of the things He has promised to be true (for example, heaven, hell, sin, angels, etc.). Therefore, it is faith and not sight. We trust these things are true, which trust is based on evidence (miracles, Scripture, fulfilled prophecy, nature, etc.).
Mark Shepherd wrote:Jesus is the main reason and basis for my faith and beliefs not Peter; I don't believe Peter died on the cross for the remission of our sins.
Yes, Jesus is the foundation of our salvation. However, you know nothing about Jesus, except through the apostles. Therefore, they play an essential and vital role in our salvation as messenger.
Paul wrote:Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, ... (Ephesians 2:19-20)
Furthermore, by Jesus' own words, to reject the apostles' message is to reject Jesus Himself:
Luke wrote:"He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me." (Luke 10:16)
Yes, Jesus died for us, but He also established the apostles and prophets as His ambassadors. If we reject them, then we reject Him.
Paul wrote:Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. (II Corinthians 5:18-20)
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I did some reading of Mitchell's book you mentioned. I am familiar with Jefferson's objections and others like him. It concerns me greatly that you would use that as a reference.
Now, I do not know what is your belief and practice, but
if you subjectively pick and choose the parts of the Bible you want to keep, then there is nothing I can say. You have set yourself up as God, because any passage I quote as authoritative, you can easily dismiss as being not representative of the historical Jesus. It is not only incredibly convenient, but incredibly subjective and therefore undebatable. If that is your practice, you cannot avoid
effectively establishing yourself as God, because you will be the final and only arbiter as to which parts of Scripture are truly from God.
Answering Loose Ends:
Mark Shepherd wrote:However as a gnostic, I believe Jesus postulated the truer message of turning the other cheek (Matt 5:39) and leading as a pure example to follow — being "doers of the word" and will of the father (James 1:22, Matt 7:21).
Just because we are turn the other cheek, that does not mean we cannot answer the unbelievers arguments. Just because we are commanded to do the Word, that does not mean we cannot teach it. You are jumping to a conclusion that cannot be supported by the words. Furthermore, the above examples of Christians disputing with those in error - and many more not listed - abound to show the error here.
Mark Shepherd wrote:This verse from 1 Peter might be more consistent with taking the higher road:
Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
—1 Peter 5:1-4
Again, just because elders are to be examples, that does not mean that they cannot show the error of the false teacher. Rather, it is a requirement that they be able and skilled in doing so:
Paul wrote:For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, ... holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. (Titus 1:5-11)
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Mark Shepherd wrote:So the point of Jesus the Nazarene's message and role on this earth was to see how many future christians would win a biblical spiritual based argument? ... The whole notion sounds extremely silly when you think about it.
No, this is clearly not the whole point, but evangelism is part of our mission as Christians. Within that sub-mission, we must occasionally answer error, which can be likened to a spiritual battle:
Paul wrote:For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, (II Corinthians 10:3-5)
My friend, I fear you are turning away many pertinent passages as merely "interesting" or "figurative", while inserting meaning into others that is neither necessary nor consistent with the context. I hope you will rethink your position. If I have misunderstood you, please forgive my earnest concern.