Baptism does not SAVE

What can I do to be saved? Place to discuss sin and its remedy.

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Baptism does not SAVE

Post by email » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:48 pm

Romans 10:9-10 & 13: That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation...For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

No baptism required..

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Water does not save...Jesus shed blood is what washes away our sins..

Revelation 1:5: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

Colossians 1:14: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 1:8: John the Baptist said I indeed have baptized you with water, but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 1:5: For John truly baptized with water, but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Ephesians 1:8: After ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

The blind man in Luke 18: 35-43 was saved by faith in Jesus and there is no record he was baptized!...can you find it!

In Acts Chapter 10 it is recorded that Cornelious received the Holy Ghost BEFORE he was baptized...

Acts 2:41 the verse declares, Then they that gladly received his word were baptized.... It does not say that baptism was essential for salvation, but merely states that they were baptized after they believed.

In Mark 16:16 it says what damned them is not believing, not not being baptized.

Paul implied water baptism was not part of the Gospel in I Corinthians 1:17 when he declared that he was not sent by Christ to baptize, but to preach the Gospel.

Paul defined the Gospel in I Cor. 15:1-8, and did not mention water baptism.

How many more examples do you need that baptism can not and will not save you..only a repentant heart and the holy spirit can do that...

Every one who trusts in Jesus Christ should be baptized. No one who truly trusts in Jesus will refuse biblical baptism.

They are to SUBMIT to baptism and they are to RECEIVE the Spirit, all as a result of their faith. Baptism is not saving. One is not justified through baptism. One is saved when they are justified. Justification comes at the point when Jesus is trusted in true faith. True faith is the confident trust that one is right with God through the gift of Jesus Christ as one s forgiveness and righteousness.

What is Baptism? Baptism is the sign and seal of righteousness by faith. SIGN: Means something which points to something else. In this case baptism points to the counting of the believer righteous by God through Christ..

Paul & Silas when asked in Acts 16:30;
He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved you and your household."
Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.
At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Yes they were baptised..but that was not required ""Believe in the Lord Jesus" was what was required..if baptism had been required would they not have stated that fact when directly asked?


I have a personal realtionship with Christ because I asked him to be my personal LORD & SAVIOR..not because I followed his example to be baptised..

If a person were to be baptised who did not believe would it stil give him salvation..heres betting that that has happened more times than it should...
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Baptism does not SAVE

Post by m273p15c » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:57 am

I appreciate your expressed conviction. Many of these arguments are answered on our forums, although I would happy to answer them one by one. Before I do that, please allow me to ask a question first:

If I quoted a verse that affirmed the saints are saved by grace, God's grace, - and the verse did not mention faith - would you still contend that you are saved by faith, your faith? Why or why not?

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,

m273p15c
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)

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Re: Baptism does not SAVE

Post by email » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:55 pm

Grace is the unmerited favor of God....its not something we earn, as we cannot ever "earn" anything from God..he gives it to us freely because of his great love for us.

Without Faith that God exists, would the saints have been saved..is God going to save anyone who does not believe in him..?..

The Saints were chosen by God before they were ever born, and even after walking & talking with Jesus, they sometimes had to be reminded. Without Gods grace he would never have sent his Son to die on the cross for our sins.. yes we are saved by grace..but we must first have faith in him...and believe in him and accept him.. before his grace is sufficient...

tell me this.. why was Jesus baptized...your answer to that question will tell me everything I need to know.
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Baptism does not SAVE

Post by m273p15c » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:01 am

Although I appreciate and understand your answer, you failed to answer my question and thereby dodged my point.

I agree that grace and faith are required for salvation. However, there are several verses that mention grace with no reference to faith and vice versa. You have no trouble reconciling these, because you understand both are required. You take the sum of the verses and dare not set them against each other.

Then, why do you stumble on verses that clearly require baptism, marking it as the point when sins are forgiven (Acts 2:37-38; I Peter 3:21; Romans 6:1-ff, etc.)? Why can you not accept that grace, faith, and conditional works, such as baptism, are ALL required? If you accept faith and grace, then why can you not accept grace, faith, and baptism? You have already "swallowed the camel", when you accepted faith as a requirement.

If you believe that baptism is contrary to faith or grace, then please explain why the Scriptures show them as inter-related and codependent?
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Galatians 3:26-27)
The logical conjunction, "for", is key. It harmonizes sonship by faith and entrance into Christ's body through baptism. They are not mutually exclusive or even opposed to each other. In fact, they work together in the same event, conversion and justification (James 2:14-26).

If you are still struggling with this, please allow me to probe deeper with another question: Who is responsible for YOUR faith? You or God?

Finally, Jesus' baptism is not related to this matter, for at least two reasons: One, He approached the waters of baptism as a sinless individual. No man can sustain such a claim for himself, except Jesus. Second, those immersed in John's baptism, who lived beyond Jesus' uttering of the Great Commission, were required to be baptized again in Jesus' name for the remission of sins (Acts 19:1-6; 2:37-38; Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16). Jesus' baptism by John was not the same as the baptism with which we are commanded today. Therefore, given a different audience and authority, any points drawn from John's baptism would be debatable, at best.

I look forward to hearing from you soon. May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,

m273p15c
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)

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Re: Baptism does not SAVE

Post by email » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:23 pm

So does that mean that those who accept Christ (and we know only Gods knows for sure) on their deathbeds are doomed to Hell because they wouldn’t have time to be baptized..?

And what about babies that die before they are baptized do they go to hell as well?

Let's suppose that a person, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), believed in Jesus as his savior (Rom. 10:9-10; Titus 2:13), and has received Christ (John 1:12) as Savior. Is that person saved?Let's further suppose that this person confesses his sinfulness, cries out in repentance to the Lord, and receives Jesus as Savior and then walks across the street to get baptized at a local church. In the middle of the road he gets hit by a car and is killed. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to heaven then baptism is not necessary for salvation. If he goes to hell, then trusting in Jesus, by faith, is not enough for salvation. Doesn't that go against the Scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)? Does the bible contradict itself.....you quote versus that can be read to say it is required, (and yes I can see where you get that) and I quoted versus that didn’t sate baptism was necessary but that faith was...it cant be both...so which is it..Would God have lets the saints write things which go against the writings of the other saints..I don’t believe so..

We can go around till the cows come home..and and probably would and you can make exceptions to the cases I stated above..but if you make exceptions than you effectively invalidate your position..it either is required for all regardless of age (I see no mention of age in the bible for it, if there is please show me) or it is required for none.....
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Baptism does not SAVE

Post by m273p15c » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:23 pm

I do not know if you realize it, but you have used several "emotional arguments" that prove nothing. Their persuasive power is rooted in human emotion - not the words of Scripture. I would encourage you to abandon such worldly tools to convince (I Corinthians 2:1-15). To those who wear the name of Christ, only His authority holds sway - nothing else matters.

God is the ultimate Judge of man, and we are in no position to offer eternal judgment (James 4:11-12). Your arguments are designed to elicit emotional responses, by placing sympathetic, weak man in the place of the Judge. Such a position is beyond us, and we are warned to maintain our place (Jude 1:6). Consequently, these deceptive arguments prove nothing. To demonstrate, by simply shifting the "line" a smidgen, I can easily turn the tables:
So, does that mean that those who accept Christ on their deathbeds are doomed to Hell, because they wouldn't have time to repent or confess?

And, what about the babies that die before they believe? Would they go to hell? (BTW, your belief in original sin, or total inherited depravity sets you up for this one.) At what age is faith required for babies, before they can go to heaven? I see no reference relating faith and age appropriateness...

Let's suppose an alien sinner, sat in a worship service listening to the gospel for the first time. He came to realize his sin. He recognized Jesus was the Son of God, and he knew he had to do something. As he sat there contemplating the matter, moving closer to a saving faith - he died of a heart attack. Would he be saved? If he had lived a few seconds more, he would have accepted Jesus, believed, repented, and confessed, but alas, he died just a few seconds before that could happen. Will he burn in eternal hell? Or, how about the good person - who donated to charity, was faithful to his spouse, was diligent at his work, was truthful in his speech, never stole, etc. - who was on his way to hear the gospel for the first time, and just before he stepped into the church building, where he would have heard the gospel and believed to the saving of his soul, a street sign fell on his head and killed him instantly.
Do you see the point? These kinds of questions never prove anything. Yes, with these tactics, we can continue until the cows come home. You see, I can put you on point just as easily as you can me. But, what does that prove? If I crumble under the weight of such emotional pressure, does that change what God said? What matters to you? Only God's Word matters to me! We are judged by God and His Word (John 12:48). Nothing else should matter, even if it tries our faith - as does baptism for many.

Now, to answer your real question, and to get back to my original question:
Does the bible contradict itself.....you quote versus that can be read to say it is required, (and yes I can see where you get that) and I quoted versus that didn’t sate baptism was necessary but that faith was...it cant be both...so which is it.
No, that is exactly my point, one which you have already accepted but failed to apply consistently. It is not just faith. It is grace (Ephesians 2:5), hearing (Romans 10:17), faith (Hebrews 11:6), repentance (Luke 12:1-5), confession (Romans 10:17), and baptism (I Peter 3:21; Romans 6:1-ff; Ephesians 5:26; Hebrews 10:22; Acts 22:16; 2:37-38; etc.) Many of these are mentioned by themselves in the above verses. You accept the combination of: grace, hearing, believing, repentance, and confession, but yet you reject baptism. Why? Whatever logic you use to combine the other requirements can also embrace baptism.

To make this point graphically, please look at this chart with brief introduction:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/salvation.html

We understand that the sum of these passages and examples must be considered. None of these exclude the others. Again, please respond to Galatians 3:26-27 to see this point. Baptism does not negate faith. It demands it!

Who said salvation was produced by one or the other? Where did you get this idea? Really?

Yes, salvation is a free gift, but does that mean it costs you nothing? It costs you everything (Luke 14:25-32)! The key here is that none of these things, especially baptism, earn you salvation. Neither are they the price of our salvation! God requires baptism, just as He requires faith, repentance, and confession. If baptism nullifies the "freeness" of this gift, then so does faith, repentance, and confession! As I said, you have already "swallowed the camel", so why are you "straining at the gnat"? Which is really harder for man to do: Believe, repent, confess, or be baptized? Baptism is by far the easiest on this list!

Think about Naaman (II Kings 5:1-14). He had to dip in the water 7 times to be cured of his leprosy. Was he cleansed by grace or by his own works? We could say, "Both!", but if we want to identify the ultimate, underlying credit, obviously, it is God's grace. Otherwise, any leper could dip seven times in the Jordan and be cleansed.

My immersion is so insignificant compared to what God has done for us, I can say without hesitation, "By grace I am saved...".

Much more should be said - there are many fine points I am glossing over, but I must wait to hear where you are. I pray you will patiently mediate, consider, and reflect on the above passages.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,

m273p15c
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)

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Re: Baptism does not SAVE

Post by email » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:20 pm

m273p15c, as to the examples I listed, emotional or not, the deathbed confession happens all to often...my pastor alone has seen more than his share..

I also believe baptism is important but not for the same reason you do. Go told us to Go Ye Therefore and Baptize...that alone makes it important.. the difference is you believe it is part of salvation, I believe it is obedience to God's commandant the same as practicing Communion is....for if it is the water that washes away the sins, then what is the purpose of the blood of the lamb.. is the blood not sufficient alone..
We are at an impasse..at the core we share the same belief of what is required for salvation..which is good, we just have a deep differing opinion on baptism's role...I think we should leave it at that and call it a day.

God Bless & Good Night
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Baptism does not SAVE

Post by m273p15c » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:51 pm

I appreciate your straightforwardness. Thank you for your time and thoughts. I will not pursue this further.

However, as we close, I feel burdened to answer your newly raised question and offer one last thought: It is a red-herring to suggest that requiring baptism implies that Jesus' blood was not sufficient. Do you think your faith, repentance, or confession renders Christ's blood impotent? Why do you treat one requirement one way, but the other 3 another way? Consistency is a great test of fairness and honesty. I hope you can look past your strong feelings to answer this question and the others I have asked.

Please keep in mind that we are in different positions. Although I respect your zeal and frankness, I cannot be as cavalier as you. You see, in the New Testament, those who were baptized for the wrong reasons, and had opportunity to be baptized for the right reason, were required to do so. They were isolated from the spiritual blessings of the gospel, until they did so (Acts 19:1-6). Baptism is "for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:37-38). If my understanding is correct, then you are in danger, and you need to be rebaptized for the right reason, "for the remission of sins", just as were those ancient Ephesians (Acts 19:1-6). Furthermore, you need to correct your teaching on this matter, as did Apollos (Acts 18:24-28). I cannot judge for God, but I do know that He has never dealt kindly with presumption. (Please look up all forms of the word in any good Bible concordance. See also, II Corinthians 5:11 and Hebrews 12:25-29, concerning the "consuming", "terror of the Lord").

Please look at this article soon:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/pattern.html

I pray you do not choose to face God, presuming that baptism is of no consequence, failing to give it the fair, honest, and diligent study it deserves. I have observed too many people do this. Hopefully, you will not be among them.

Lastly, please keep in mind that little is more fundamental that what a person must do to be saved. Fellowship and unity can never be enjoyed, while such a division exists. Hopefully, Christ's prayer for unity among those who believe in Him, will mean something to you, as it does to me:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... unity.html

If His prayer touches you, maybe you will come back to this discussion again some day, if for no other reason than Jesus' prayer. I would be happy to answer the other questions you raised, as well as consider new questions and thoughts from the Bible.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12),

m273p15c
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)

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Re: Baptism does not SAVE

Post by pastorstringer » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:48 pm

So what happens to a person who has a "deathbed" conversion?
Churches I have been involved with have typically (though not always) required a parent's permission before baptizing a child. I have a friend whose church was taken to court for baptizing children without the parents' permission! What if a 13 year-old child believes, but his/her parents won't allow him/her to be baptized.
What about the criminal on the cross that was saved just before death.
I am curious about your thoughts on this (even though it is an emotional argument).
Thanks.

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