Lemonade??? (Baptism)

What can I do to be saved? Place to discuss sin and its remedy.

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Lemonade??? (Baptism)

Post by email » Mon Sep 23, 2002 5:11 pm

First off let me acknowledge that I stumbled upon your website and have enjoyed much of the content. For reference sake, I am a Christian who has met the requirements as laid out in your ‘God’s plan for Salvation’ guideline. I am a baptized believer… baptized as an adult. However, I find it funny that you have made it important to publish the ‘necessity’ of baptism over the other requirements. And I’m not sure that I can wholeheartedly agree with this decision.

First off your ‘pattern of requirements’ chart shows several blank areas as they are related to many Bible passages. You have already said that God looks at the heart… HE alone knows the heart. While I believe that these ‘requirements’ are all biblical acts of outwardly confirming a relationship with God, I think it is shaky ground to state that salvation is not attainable without a water baptism… and definitely less shaky ground to say that salvation is unattainable without ‘belief’.

Without trying to oversimplify… If I was ‘commissioned’ to tell nations how to make ‘sweetened lemonade’, then certainly I would give them the mandatory ingredients. (let’s say, lemons, water and ‘a sweetener’) I could not and would not leave any of these ingredients out… still Paul however has left out so much when He wrote to the Romans in 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” Is Paul mistaken or did he leave out the “lemons.” Or what about poor Nicodemus… he was led to believe by Christ Himself that whoever ‘believes in Him’ shall not perish. (Mind you, I will clarify that ‘believing’ is much more than just ‘believing in existence’… rather believing in in the sense of agreement; treating as valid. Much like saying “I believe in George Bush”… in his actions, mandates, etc… therefore I will follow and act in accordance with them.)

Don’t get me wrong, I encourage baptism… I’m thankful for the baptism experience that I had. But, had I died the day before my baptism I am confident that God, who knew my heart, would have still allowed my name in the Lambs book of Life. Christ said there is much rejoicing in heaven over a sinner’s repentance. Don’t you find it curious that in creating the New Covenant that there would be another mandated ‘one time’ altar… which you seem to be referring to as baptism? I can’t help but feel like there is a little bit of legalism here.

Once again, let me state that I really appreciated your comments on the validity, authenticity, authority, and relevance of God’s Word. We are very much in agreement in those areas and they were very welcomed study notes.
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m273p15c
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Post by m273p15c » Sat Sep 28, 2002 4:56 pm

Thanks for the encouraging words. I also appreciate the reflective thoughts and the kind spirit in which they were offered. Hopefully, this note will in some measure clarify my decisions, and maybe it will offer us an opportunity to further consider these important questions.

Why emphasize baptism? I have not yet written dedicated articles on hearing, belief, repentance, or confession because nobody to whom I have talked has questioned God's requirements on these points. However, because many people, from my experience, believe it to be optional or necessary only as an outward sign, an article was written focusing on the necessity of baptism. Since I have limited time, I try to choose articles that address common and significant questions. I do plan to write articles on these topics, but I'm trying to finish a series on the worship of the church first. Afterwards, I do plan to finish the other points of salvation, as you have outlined.

Regarding your question about salvation, please consider if it is our responsibility to judge or to obey. James says, that "There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy ... Who are we to judge another" (James 4:11-12). Are we to decide what God really intended for us to do by judging how He will judge on the last day? Questions concerning the eternal fate of one who died the day before He was baptized, confessed, repented, or believed are emotional questions that beg for leniency. It is hard for us to image God condemning somebody the day before they were saved. The truth is that God does not want anyone to be lost, and He is longsuffering to ensure that all will be saved who are willing (II Peter 3:9). However, we are acting as judges rather than as constituents, citizens, and servants when we exalt ourselves to a plane of judgment. Please understand that I am not accusing you, but please consider, "What is the standard for our line of reasoning?"

Is baptism commanded? I think we would both agree, "yes". At what point has one satisfied God's requirements for a relationship with Him, I believe it is at baptism. You may have read the Scriptures in the articles, but please examine again I Peter 3:21, "baptism now saves us". Also, Colossians 2:11-12 links baptism to the point where which we are buried with Christ, and the body of the sins of the flesh is circumcised. Romans 6:1-6 indicates that "as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?" "Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Where is the transition? The old man is buried with Christ. A new creature is raised to walk in newness of life. Again, the point of spiritual burial of the old carnal man and resurrection of the spiritual man is at baptism. How does one enter a relationship with Christ? "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Galatians 3:26-27). The apostle Paul was told to "arise and be baptized. Wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16).

Is baptism magic? No, there's nothing special in the water. Legalism, like the Pharisees, would say that anyone who has done this is safe. It allows men to follow a simplified, pleasant outward form, never providing God what He really wanted, the heart and will (Psalm 51:16-17). The point of these articles was to encourage us not to go to the other extreme, setting up a system of doctrine that makes sense to us. Really, baptism does not make sense to men. What is so special about being dipped in water? Please examine the case of Nadab and Abihu who offered incense using strange fire (Leviticus 10:1-3). What about King Saul, who offered sacrifice, which was Samuel's job? Does it make sense to you that God really cared that Samuel offer the sacrifice instead of Saul? It does not make sense to my understanding, yet God cared and punished Saul mightily.
Samuel wrote:"So Samuel said: 'Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.

" 'For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He also has rejected you from being king.'" I Samuel 15:22-23
When we alter the purpose behind baptism, "for forgiveness of sins" (Acts 2:38), we pervert its original intention. Please notice that the Ephesians, who were baptized according to John's baptism, were immediately baptized in Jesus name, when they learned of its commandment. Does someone need to be baptized again, if they were baptized for the wrong reason? What does the case of the Ephesian brethren teach us (Acts 19:1-5[/b])?

Back to the wisdom behind baptism, again it makes no sense to my carnal understanding, but please remember what Paul said to the Corinthians,
Paul wrote:For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. (I Corinthians 1:19-29)
Maybe baptism is not supposed to make sense to the carnal man. We must be willing to abandon our judgments and our traditions, if we are to make it pass the "gate" (Matthew 15:1-ff). "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble" (James 4:6).

Now finally back to the lemonade. The point you mention about the lemonade is answered by the chart. Please notice that in every reference of conversion, belief is often not mentioned, yet no one doubts its necessity. Why? The answer? It is not according to our traditional way religious thinking. But, more Scripturally, we accept it because other verses require it. No one demands every verse to be all inclusive. We take the Bible as a whole, written by one author. Concerning Paul's instructions to the Romans on salvation (Romans 10:9), please consider that the Romans were already Christians (Romans 15:14-16:24), and Romans 6 was one of the most powerful dissertations written on baptism. Also, please notice that Jesus instructions to Nicodemus also included baptism, "born of water" (John 3:5). Also, please notice that He was immediately following, busy baptizing disciples (John 3:22-23). So, the instructions do include all the ingredients, we just can not choose to accept only certain parts of the instructions.

If I had one brief set of definitive instructions on lemonade, then yes, I would include everything on that one list. But, if I wrote a book on lemonade, intended to answer the doctrines of those who practice making lemonade without water, others who made lemonade with too much sugar, and those who changed lemons to limes, then I would probably spend some time focusing on each problem. In the section on limes, I might not mention water, but it would not mean that water was not important. It would only mean that the specific problem under discussion was limes, and limes should not be substituted for lemons - no more, no less.

However, this line of reasoning is straying from the Scripture, and putting ourselves in the place of the Judge, "speaking evil of the law". Is it our place to judge or obey? What does the Scripture command? If the Scripture does not command baptism, and offers salvation comes apart from baptism, then so will I.

Hopefully, this raised some trying questions for us to consider. Why do we believe what we believe? Is it because that is what we like? Is it because that is the way we were raised? Is it because that is what most people think? Or, is it because that is what God teaches?

Please let me know what you think. I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks again for your feedback. I hope this return feedback will be spiritually profitable for you as well.

May God bless you in your pursuit of truth, with humility, courage, and honesty.

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