Implications of Thief on the Cross: Saved by Faith Only?

What can I do to be saved? Place to discuss sin and its remedy.

Moderator: grand_puba

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

only belief is required

Post by luke1 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:21 pm

The point that I was trying to get across by using the example of the thief (malefactor) on the cross, is that belief in Jesus, God incarnate, was the only necessity for his salvation. I am sure that he had many works of disobedience, however no works of obedience that I was able to find. In fact it is a work of disobedience from the part of Adam, as I see it, that began this great work of God. Moses, Jonah, and others, disobeyed works of God. However, God moved Moses to be his respresentative, because God had not made a mistake in choosing him. God moved Jonah, after a little trip into the belly of a great fish, because God had not made a mistake in choosing him.

Work(s) of obedience cannot stand by itself when it comes to salvation. Belief on the other hand, can and does stand alone, when it comes to salvation.

Works of: obedience............................ ? = ?
Works of: disobedience......................... ? = ?

Belief in Jesus...................................... 1 = salvation.

Did Jesus not know what He was saying on the cross, when He told the thief (malefactor) who elected to believe Him (in Him) " Verily, I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

If this is not unconditional salvation based only on belief (faith), would someone out there please enlighten me.
This is an example of salvation from God Himself.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:10 am

I would only like to add for reference: Colossians 2:12-14
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross";

Then John 19:31-33
"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath
day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be
taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:"

Unless, I am reading this wrong, the other two who were cruxified to the cross were still alive, which necessitated the breaking of their legs, to speed up their death. Jesus legs were not broken because he was dead already.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:19 pm

There is another addition I would like to make after reading an article entitled "Why the Old Covenant Failed" by Joe Crews. Scripture, of course will be from the Bible.

Please take into consideration that I am referring to the Old Covenant (testament), and not the Ten Commandments.

The Book of Hebrews.......There God is reported as "finding fault with them" Hebrew 8:8, Then verse 9 "Because they continued not in my covenant and I regarded them not, saith the Lord". The fault is squarely on the human side of the mutual pact. Verse 7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
How were the new Covenant promises better? Because God made them, and they guaranteed success through his strength alone. Verse 10: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people": Verses 12 & 13 "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."
Under the Old Covenant, sins were only covered for a period of time.
How was the New Covenant ratified? In the same manner that the old was ratified- by the shedding of blood.
However, instead of an ox having to shed its blood, it would be the Lamb of God, Christ Jesus, who would shed His blood, being nailed to the cross, once and for all time, the perfect sacrifice that would wash away the sins of the world.



Before His agonizing death, Jesus met with His disciples in the upper room. Holding up the cup in His hands, He said "This is my blood of the new testament , which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Matthew 26:28

Galatians 3:15 "Brethen, I speak after the manner of man; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed,
no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto." The conditions were all sealed and ratified by the shedding of blood.


Before Jesus uttered His last 7 sayings on the cross, His hands and feet had already been pierced with nails, and so was already shedding His blood.

Marc
Banned
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Sep 30, 2002 4:19 pm

Post by Marc » Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:22 am

Hi,

Would you agree that the Lord Jesus also shed His precious blood when Pilate had Him scourged and when the soldiers mockingly put a crown of "thorns" on His head? Both of which took place before the cross (John 19:1, 2)

Thanks
- Marc

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:15 pm

Yes, I would have to agree with that. Thank you for your imput.

User avatar
m273p15c
Posts: 2788
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 1999 10:45 am

Re: implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith

Post by m273p15c » Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:05 pm

Please allow me to deal with these arguments in reverse chronological order:
luke1 wrote:I would only like to add for reference: Colossians 2:12-14
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross";

Then John 19:31-33
"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath
day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be
taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:"

Unless, I am reading this wrong, the other two who were cruxified to the cross were still alive, which necessitated the breaking of their legs, to speed up their death. Jesus legs were not broken because he was dead already.

...

How was the New Covenant ratified? In the same manner that the old was ratified- by the shedding of blood.
However, instead of an ox having to shed its blood, it would be the Lamb of God, Christ Jesus, who would shed His blood, being nailed to the cross, once and for all time, the perfect sacrifice that would wash away the sins of the world.

Before His agonizing death, Jesus met with His disciples in the upper room. Holding up the cup in His hands, He said "This is my blood of the new testament , which is shed for many for the remission of sins." Matthew 26:28

Galatians 3:15 "Brethen, I speak after the manner of man; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed,
no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto." The conditions were all sealed and ratified by the shedding of blood.

Before Jesus uttered His last 7 sayings on the cross, His hands and feet had already been pierced with nails, and so was already shedding His blood.
If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that the New Covenant was ratified as soon as Jesus bled. Is that right? Therefore, the thief was saved under the New Covenant, because he died after Jesus died - and more technically correct - after Jesus bled. Did I understand you correctly?

Thanks!

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:37 am

Hebrews 9:16 (KJV) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:17 (KJV) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Galatians 3:15 (KJV) Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. "yet if it be confirmed"


In Christ Jesus God bless

User avatar
m273p15c
Posts: 2788
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 1999 10:45 am

so, what do you believe?

Post by m273p15c » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:33 am

It seems you were previously arguing that the New Covenant began as soon as Jesus bled:
luke1 wrote:Galatians 3:15 "Brethen, I speak after the manner of man; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto." The conditions were all sealed and ratified by the shedding of blood.

Before Jesus uttered His last 7 sayings on the cross, His hands and feet had already been pierced with nails, and so was already shedding His blood.
...
Marc wrote: Would you agree that the Lord Jesus also shed His precious blood when Pilate had Him scourged and when the soldiers mockingly put a crown of "thorns" on His head? Both of which took place before the cross (John 19:1, 2)
Yes, I would have to agree with that. Thank you for your imput.
However, the verses you quoted in your most recent post show that it required more - His death!
Luke1 wrote:Hebrews 9:16 (KJV) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:17 (KJV) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
I am totally confused as to what is being expressed here. Would you please clarify your position?

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:40 pm

I apologize that I have been the source of your total confusion. I know it can not be the fault of the sciptures quoted.

You wrote that my most recent quotes from scripture on Oct 3, 2006 are the source of your confusion, yet I listed Galations 3:15 to demonstrate the same view on August 28, 2006, when I first quoted Galatians 3:15.
When a man or a woman makes a last will and testament, it is confirmed (as is) at that persons death. No changes after death can be made. This is what Galatians 3:15 is saying. Changes can be made while the person still lives, however, at death, it is confirmed.

I placed Galatians 3:15 in conjunction with, and right after Matthew 26:28 (KJV) For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Concerning my response to Marc, should I have rather said, no Marc ,I do not agree with you. Jesus was not yet shedding His precious blood when he was scouraged, nor when a crown of thorns was placed on His head. Or should I have completely ignored him and his imput.

In Christ Jesus God bless

User avatar
m273p15c
Posts: 2788
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 1999 10:45 am

Post by m273p15c » Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:50 pm

I am sorry, but I still do not understand what you believe regarding the ending and beginning of the covenants. Please allow me to rephrase my question:

In reference to authority, do you believe that the Old Covenant had a relatively specific end point? If so, what? Do you believe that the New Covenant had a relatively specific beginning point, again in regards to authority? If so, what?

Thanks! Sorry for my slowness. :)

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:43 pm

John 19:30 (KJV) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.



In Christ Jesus God bless

JSM17
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:16 pm
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Post by JSM17 » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:11 pm

No one is saved by faith alone!

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:11 pm

I'm all ears. Then you explain how it is that the thief shall be saved.

JSM17
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:16 pm
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Post by JSM17 » Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:15 am

Well for starters we see from the context that these two thieves were bad mouthing Christ, but for what ever reason one of them had a change of mind and asked Jesus to remember him. This really shows a change of mind and heart towards Jesus by this thief, one would call this repentance. Some how this man on this cross realized something signifigant about Jesus, it could have been many things that moved him to believe and repent, some may even go as far to say that in a way when this man called upon Jesus to remember him this was a type of confessing that Jesus is the Christ.

Regardless of these points, we must always remember that the thief died before the death burial and resurection, so really he is not an example of our obedience to God today. Jesus knew more about this man then any of us, only God knows true repentance and confession, true faith which moves us to obey God.

So I would conclude that indeed the thief on the cross was not saved by faith alone, because if he had faith but was unwilling to change his mind and thoughts and was not sorry for the way that he verbally attacked Christ then his faith would have been dead.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:41 pm

John 3:15 (KJV) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 (KJV) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 6:40 (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:25 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

These are just a few, since I don't have any more time at the moment.

Could you substitute the word "repent" in all the instances where "believe, or believeth" is used and have the same result?

Jesus was dead already, therefore did not necesitate the breaking of his legs. But breaking the legs of the malfactors was necessitated because they were still alive.

Got to go, In Christ Jesus God bless

JSM17
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:16 pm
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Post by JSM17 » Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:21 pm

If belief incompasses repentance, then it also includes confession and baptism, because they all save!!!!!!!!!!!!

2 Cor 7:10-11
10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.
NASU


Rom 10:10-11
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. NASU


Mark 16:15-16
15 And He said to them, " Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
NASU

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:05 pm

Please note the question, that is being asked, there can be no doubt as to what the jailer is asking?
16:30 (KJV) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Please note the answer, and please note the dot thats follows the answer, usually it means conclusion of sentence.

Acts 16:31 (KJV) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

JSM17
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:16 pm
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Post by JSM17 » Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:27 pm

So I guess you must of missed the scriptures that I posted on my last post, do those scriptures have anything to do with SALVATION? Please read them again, and please notice the words SALVATION and SAVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Post by luke1 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:03 am

2 Corinthians 7:10 (KJV) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Paul is talking to christians, who are already saved. For the christian, God sometimes uses sorrow in our lifes so that we turn away from sin and seek eternal life. But the sorrow of a person who is not a christian is not the sorrow of true repentance and does not prevent eternal death. A disbeliever does not have this work of God reproving him. Thus "but the sorrow of the world worketh death. You must be a believer, to be a christian. The disbeliever can repent over and over again, and it will not save, because it is a work of man, not of God.

Romans 10:10 (KJV) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Basically, what this is saying is that, .."if you tell others with your own mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord, and BELIEVE in your own heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Believing is what granted us salvation, and the same believing will grant salvation to others.

Mark 16:15 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

These verses really fortifies belief, for if there is no belief, baptism is not going to save you.

Acts 16:30-31 (KJV) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

These verses incorporate within its context all that is needed to be saved.

sledford
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:06 pm
Contact:

Post by sledford » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:35 pm

I would like to take an excerpt from luke1's reasoning:
luke1 wrote:Mark 16:15 (KJV) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

These verses really fortifies belief, for if there is no belief, baptism is not going to save you.
You are correct in your conclusion but you are at the same time incorrect in the completeness of your conclusion. The completeness of the conclusion is:

a) if there is no belief, baptism is not going to save you

AND

b) if there is no baptism, belief ALONE isn't going to save you

Belief and its definition is one of the greatest distortions in the religious community as a whole. I sum it up with this one statement:

"If you believe something, truly, prove to me that you believe it."

You can say it loudly, quietly, to yourself, to others, it doesn't matter. If all you do is say something, and then do not do something in keeping with that statement it is meaningless. Have you ever heard the phrase "lip service"? Do you really think God operates any differently?
Mark 7:5-6 wrote:5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Lip service = hypocricy

This is a principle as universal as God is in heaven. One must BELIEVE and ACT in one continuous motion consistently or else it is vain belief. Why is that so hard to grasp?

Personally, the proposed logic of the "Thief on the Cross" is what is referred to as reasoning from exception. It is proposed that by finding one single exception to a truth renders the truth irrelevant. So, much labor is put into defining and expanding that exception beyond what can or should be understood conclusively. The information we are given about this thief is thin at best. The perspective that JSM offers relative to the New Covenant not being established yet is a reasonable one to consider. However it works out though, given that the information about the thief is thin at best regarding this situation, you want to tell me that this establishes precedent over other very clear, unambigous and complete instruction such as Mark 16:15-16? Friend, you have a harmonization problem to state it mildly.

JSM17
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:16 pm
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Post by JSM17 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:23 pm

Luke1 said
But the sorrow of a person who is not a christian is not the sorrow of true repentance and does not prevent eternal death.
I find your comment rather disturbing, as if God does not require on to turn from his wicked ways and to change his mind about the things he has done and to turn towards God.

As if one who is not saved cannot make any change, or conscience choice to change, so when we read scriptures like:

Acts 2:38
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NASU
He really does not mean for these non-Christians to repent.

IS he talking to Christians, no not yet! But Peter has asked them to repent!

or what about this one:

Acts 3:19
19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
NASU

Or what about this one, Paul tells all people that they should repent, maybe Paul did not realize that they could not truly repent because they were not Christians yet.

Acts 17:29-31
30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
NASU

It is intersting that Paul would tell them to do something that they could not do.

If a person will not repent he will perish, this sound like a conditional statement doesn't it?

Plain bible teach plainly ignored like usual.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:48 am

Acts 2:21

Peter also said in Acts 2:21 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:38 is a continuation of things been said to the same crowd)

Repent, (change of mind) return to your first impression that Christ Jesus is the promised Messiah.

I do not have much time, as my work week begins today, but I will get back to you, and others.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:43 pm

These men that Peter is talking to are devout Jews, dwelling in Jerusalem but come from many nations.

Acts 2:21Acts 2:21 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:22 (KJV) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
"A MAN APPROVED OF GOD AMONG YOU BY MIRACLES AND WONDERS AND SIGNS' , but then they changed their minds concerning his messiahship.

Acts 2:23 (KJV) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
"YE HAVE TAKEN, AND BY WICKED HANDS HAVE CRUCIFIED AND SLAIN:"

Acts 2:32 (KJV) This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Acts 2:36 (KJV) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
"WHOM YE HAVE CRUCIFIED, BOTH LORD AND CHRIST (MESSIAH)

"a man approved by God among you by miracles and wonders and signs. " "ye have taken, and by wicked hands have cruxified and slain." They choose Barabus, over Jesus to be released. "whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ".

Are these people described as strangers, who do not know what has been going on? How many people would it have taken to roll back the stone that covered the entrance to the tomb? Would not the Romans guards, who were under the penalty of death, if they fell asleep during their watch, have notice some activity. Were these same people that Peter is talking to at this time not aware of the things that were happening?

After all this, they are still wondering if Jesus is the Messiah. Return, accept Jesus as the True Messiah.

Acts 2:37 (KJV) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

WARNING:
This is only an example,
When one lives in a city and happens upon one preaching at a street corner, usually a bus stop. Most people usually ignore him. But, inside they are probably thinking either, I wish this man would shut up, or that my bus would get here. Some will walk away, and go to another bus stop further up. And those who are standing there, can they repent to something that is new to them. And then something he says strikes you to the heart, and you think to yourself, Oh I have done that, and I really feel bad about it. Then your bus gets there and you get into and it drives away, without ever really knowing that the message was to believe in the one who could and most certainly save you?
Instead, you drove feeling, that at least you had repented of that which struck you to your heart.

JSM17
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:16 pm
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Post by JSM17 » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:19 pm

Repentance Essential
Peter emphatically charged the Jews, assembled on Pentecost, with having murdered the Son of God by the hands of lawless men. Because of their implication in this vile crime, the apostle commanded them to repent of their sins (2:38 – the verb is in the imperative mood). Repentance, of course, involves a genuine change of attitude (a contrite sorrow for having done wrong), which results in a reformation of life.

When one examines Acts 10, he will not find any reference wherein the apostle commanded Cornelius to repent of his sins. Did this Roman soldier need to repent? Of course he did. He was a sinner (as evidenced by the fact that he needed salvation – see 11:14), and sinners must repent. May one reasonably conclude, then, that Cornelius repented – even though such is not particularly mentioned? Yes.

First, if the Jews were under constraint to repent (2:38), and God “made no distinction” between them and the Gentiles, then the Gentiles were equally compelled to repent.

Second, later on, in his interview with the brethren in Jerusalem, Peter rehearsed the events that had occurred at Caesarea. The Jewish saints were convinced by his testimony and exclaimed: “Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life” (11:18).

The meaning of that expression is: God has granted to the Gentiles the privilege of repenting so that they also might enjoy eternal life. And so, by simple logic – by harmonizing the records – the whole picture becomes clear.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Post by luke1 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:47 am

The whole context of these verses are to identify Jesus, as being the promised Messiah.

But, I'll need to get back to this, later.

JSM17
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:16 pm
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Post by JSM17 » Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:54 am

Yes but are all accounts of repentance referring to just an acknowledgment of who Jesus is? Repentance a change of mind of heart and action, turning from yourself, turning towards God.


Does one have to repent in order to be saved, is repentance unto salvation? Yes or No?

Before one can be saved does one have to change his mind and thoughts towards God, and himself?

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:10 pm

Repent in Acts 2 :38 is referring to the messiahship of Jesus
Acts 2:5 (KJV) And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
This clearly identifies that the ones gathered here are devout Jews. The message here is that they have not yet accepted Jesus as the promised Messiah. Not yet having accepted this fact, they are still bound to the old testament (covenant). Under the old testament (covenant), provision has been made to them for sin with the blood of sacrificially clean animals. Why would Peter be asking them to bring up their sins, if they have provision for sin already.

In reference to the thief, are you saying that the malefactor was repenting because he had bad mouthed Jesus. Did the thief ask Jesus to remember him in his kingdom, because he repented that he had bad mouthed him, or because he knew that Jesus was indeed who he said he was, Messiah.

JSM17
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:16 pm
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Post by JSM17 » Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:46 pm

The law of Christ consists strictly of information that is intended to be in effect after the death of Christ. It includes some of the things that Jesus and His disciples taught while He was still on Earth. But as regards the specifics of salvation, one must go to Acts 2 and the rest of the New Testament (especially the book of Acts) in order to determine what one must do today to be saved. Beginning in Acts 2, the new covenant of Christ took effect, and every single individual who responded correctly to the preaching of the gospel was baptized in water in order to be forgiven of sin by the blood of Christ. Every detail of an individual’s conversion is not always mentioned, but a perusal of the book of Acts demonstrates decisively that water immersion was a prerequisite to forgiveness, along with faith, repentance, and confession of the deity of Christ.

The fact is, while Jesus was on earth he had the authority to dispense blessings directly based upon the circumstances at hand. At the time of his death, however, his authority was made resident in his testamentary “will” (Hebrews 9:15-17). And the terms of that will specify baptism as a condition of pardon (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21, etc.).
No one has the legal right to eliminate that condition by appealing to something the Lord did while he was implementing his earthly ministry. The heavenly regime takes precedence over the former.

And for clarification purposes, the thief apparently had a change of mind and additude towards Christ, did he repent because he bad mouthed Christ? He had a change of mind and heart because of what he realized about Christ, the bad mouthing was only a small part of the immediate context.

It is interesting though all the things that this thief identifies as he is talking from the cross:

Exactly when he learned these facts is not specified. But there are two possibilities. Either he learned about Christ, and became convinced of his royalty, during that six-hour episode, or, else he knew about the Savior from earlier circumstances.
It is not impossible that he had been exposed significantly to information about Jesus earlier in his life, had been impressed by it, and, later, had regressed into a life of crime. Note some things about the man’s beliefs.



He acknowledged the existence of God.
He believed in a standard of right and wrong, he confessed that he and his companion had transgressed divine law, and he conceded they were being punished “justly.”
He asserted the innocence of Christ. The Teacher had done “nothing amiss.” And remember, the Lord was being crucified for his affirmation of being the “Son of the Blessed One” (Mark 14:61,62). The robber’s statement, therefore, is basically an acknowledgement of the truth of Jesus’ claim.
The penitent thief believed that Christ was a “king,” and that this act of murder would not terminate the Savior’s life; rather, the Lord would “come in [his] kingdom.”
He was confident that Jesus would be able to bless him in that regime. At the very least, these expressions indicate that the thief believed it was possible to have association with the Lord after both of them were dead.

Either Christ was preaching one awesome sermon while on the Cross that we do not have recorded or this thief had foreknowledge of the messiah.

Regardless of all these attempts to clarify the situation of the "Thief" to a bais faith alone audience, Christ still established His church and put conditions on the entrance to it.(The book of Acts)

Why argue the thief for salvation, he lived in the O.T. and died in the O.T.

The greater point of arguement would be how does the thief apply to you or I in or obedience to Christ, he doesn't, we do not live in the O.T.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:59 pm

Why do you have to resort to so many assumptions about the thief?

John 11:25 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

JSM17
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:16 pm
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Post by JSM17 » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:00 pm

Do you not assume that the thief on the cross was saved by faith alone?

I already showed you that the man had a change of mind and heart about the Lord, which is repentance, but this still does not negate the fact that the thief on the cross died under the O.T.

How this applies to you or I remains to be seen.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:44 pm

The two SCRIPTURES I referenced are not assumptions but truths. Your response, however, are assumptions. You try to throw the thief as being saved under the old testament period, than assume that he had to have been baptised by John the Baptist, assumed that he repented, then he unrepented of his repentance , was caught in his criminal act, was sentenced to death by crucification, then re-repented, and it was such a impressive act of contrition that God noticed it, albeit that Jesus was already shedding his blood of the new covenant which was for the remission of all sin.

I will take scripture for what it says.

JSM17
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:16 pm
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Post by JSM17 » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:19 pm

I will take scripture for what it says.
Glad to hear it how about this scripture:
Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
NASU


Here is an occassion after Christ died, do you believe this scripture even though they are required to do much more than the thief. Notice the baptism for the forgiveness of sins do you believe that scripture or am I assuming things again?

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:36 am

The fact of the matter concerning the thief is that he believed, and thus he was saved.

JSM17
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:16 pm
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Post by JSM17 » Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:57 pm

Jesus said concerning all men that they need to believe and that they are baptized and they shall be saved! Don't you believe what your Lord said concerning the great commission?

Why focus on the thief when you have Jesus telling you exactly what to do.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:26 pm

The thief, which is the theme of this thread, was saved by faith only. He believed Jesus the Saviour of the world.

sledford
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith o

Post by sledford » Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:23 pm

luke1 wrote:The thief, which is the theme of this thread, was saved by faith only. He believed Jesus the Saviour of the world.
Again, your reasoning and statements are incomplete. Under which covenant did this thief die? Jesus fulfillment of the Old Law did not occur until his resurrection and ascension to Heaven to present his blood at the Tabernacle of God in Heaven.
Heb 9:11-12 wrote:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, then, through a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 Nor by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, he entered once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.
Jesus stated he did not come to destroy the Old Law but to fulfill. When he fulfilled the Old Law is when the New Covenant could be put into effect.
Matt 5:17-18 wrote:17 Do not think that I have come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I have not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18 For truly I say to you, Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke, shall by any means pass away from the law, until all is fulfilled.
Heb 10:9-12 wrote:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering, time and again, the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Note that Heb 10:9 is application of the statements made in Psalms 40:6-8. The completion of the will of God is identified in the Heb 10 context as being when Christ sat down at the right hand of God, which chronologically occurred when he ascended to Heaven in Acts 1.

The thief died under the Old Law.

sledford
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:06 pm
Contact:

Post by sledford » Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:28 pm

I forgot to mention as well that there is no information given if this thief was ever baptized according to John's baptism of repentance which was commanded while under the last few years of the Old Law. We know only what is said by and to this thief while on the cross and therefore, it's a HUGE leap to reach any other, outside context, conclusions and there is certainly no basis to extrapolate from the thief to us today.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:31 pm

The thief was saved by believing that Jesus was Messiah, Saviour of the World.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 (KJV) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them" It is not a work of man, but the work of God. The thief was saved because he believed that Jesus was the Saviour of the world.

Now with this next question, my intnetion is not to start a new thread, since I do not have enough time to devote to it. However, why did Jesus use the word "paradise" instead of saying "Abrahams' bosom" which would have been more familiar to a Jew?

sledford
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith o

Post by sledford » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:29 pm

luke1 wrote:The thief was saved by believing that Jesus was Messiah, Saviour of the World.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 (KJV) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"which God hath BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them" It is not a work of man, but the work of God. The thief was saved because he believed that Jesus was the Saviour of the world.
Ah, and we come full circle to what I voiced a couple of weeks ago. You've invested quite a bit in expanding and extrapolating the "thief on the cross" beyond what is supported by context in order to "prove" your point. Friend, you have ignored all the stop signs I mentioned previously regarding this "thief" context:

a) We know next to nothing about the thief himself. Was he baptized in John's baptism of repentance earlier in his life? We don't know.
b) We do know, however, he died under the Old Law, referencing my previous exegesis.

So, in the end, this is not about the thief at all but is about "faith only". Is that your bottom line? I would prefer to deal with the root issue instead of a "side show" with this thief where precedent for "faith only" cannot be established. I would suggest opening another thread if this is indeed the case. What do you think?

JWB8
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:06 am
Location: Home
Contact:

Question of faith and belief.

Post by JWB8 » Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:49 pm

Greatings one and all: :D I would like to bring some text to light. If I may.... The issue seems to be about faith only. The faith that saves is composed of four constituent parts: Knowledge, assent, confidence, and obedience.
If a mans "faith" includes no more than mental assent, he does not have the faith to be saved. James 2:19-26 19You believe that £God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
As far as the thief is concerned, he is under the old covenant. Jesus looks at the heart, he saw the change in him and told him he would be with him... Well,this is all I have for now, hope this helps. Stay in The Word.
Seek and Ye shall find.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Post by luke1 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:48 pm

I do not have time to elaborate, but I'm sure I covered this before. The last will and testament of any person begins at the death of the testator. The thief was still alive at Jesus' death. Galatians 3:15 (KJV) Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Hebrews 9:16 (KJV) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:17 (KJV) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The thief was still alive when Jesus gave up the Spirit, dead.
Also,
You cannot prove any of the following conditons: that he was a Jew, that he was baptized, that he had works of faith, after salvation.

Here is the only scripture in the Bible that asks, what one must do to be saved, and answers it.



Paul and Silas were locked up in jail. The jailer, after seeing all that had happened, and trembling for fear, was about to ask the most important question in his life.
A question asked in the simpliest of words Acts 16:30 ".......Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 (KJV) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 11:25 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

JWB8
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:06 am
Location: Home
Contact:

Ref. to Acts 16:31

Post by JWB8 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:52 pm

In short, McGarvey's note:
Those who catch at these words of Paul to the jailer,and draw the conclusion that salvation is by faith alone, leave the jail too soon. They should remain till they hear all - till they hear Paul tell the man to repent and be baptized, till the design of baptism is explained to him, till he is baptized, till he is found rejoicing greatly immediately after his baptism.
:idea:
Seek and Ye shall find.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:21 pm

The jailer was not the only person in there. There were other prisoners.

Acts 16:25 (KJV) And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

Then suddenly there was a great earthquake, and the doors were opened and everyones' bands were loosed.

Did God do this mightly work because he wanted only the jailer saved? They were all sinners, they were all whosoevers' but the jailer asked the question that is being asked throughout the whole world, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Was Paul so taken aback by the question, that he forgot what it was that one must do to be saved?
Paul was undoubtedly so overcome at this moment witnessing the mighty power of God, first making sure everyone was awake, then loosen all that were bound, and finally offered an open door to all. Did God want only the jailer? He wanted all of them to be saved. And so the scene is set, we need only to ask the question.
Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Both Paul and Silas in unison: And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

In the whole of scripture, this is the only place where the question, what must I do to be saved, is asked, and immediatley following, an answer is given, BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED, AND THY HOUSE.

Acts 16:28 (KJV) But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

Why would Paul refer to only Silas and himself, as WE ARE ALL HERE. The prisoners heard all that needed to be heard.
It's music to my ears, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Can anyone forbid an "Amen".

sledford
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith o

Post by sledford » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:45 am

luke1 wrote:The jailer was not the only person in there. There were other prisoners.

Acts 16:25 (KJV) And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

Then suddenly there was a great earthquake, and the doors were opened and everyones' bands were loosed.

Did God do this mightly work because he wanted only the jailer saved? They were all sinners, they were all whosoevers' but the jailer asked the question that is being asked throughout the whole world, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
luke1, I must ask are you now suggesting that the rest of the prisoners were also saved? Quite frankly you are speculating wildly to reach any possible conclusion based on the presence of other prisoners hearing Paul and Silas. We don't know anything about the other prisoners, and it doesn't matter either that we know anything. But, please do not place rampant speculation on an authoratative level with that which is simply stated in scripture.

Let me propose again the fundamental issue that I see in the words being used. You have defined belief to be something that is completely internal to the believer and completely separate and distinct from any action whatsoever. Based on the complete context and what occurs when the jailer is told to "believe" and then he also acted, quite frankly gives a completely different definition of belief: internal conviction combined with external action in keeping with the conviction. As is said in James:
James 2:18-20 wrote:18 But a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils believe also, and tremble.
20 Do you want to be shown, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
James uses your exact definition of belief in 2:19 applying it to the demons. You have the wrong definition of belief resulting in salvation based on harmonization of Scripture.

JWB8
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:06 am
Location: Home
Contact:

Believe and Faith, simplistic thought.

Post by JWB8 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:50 pm

:wink: Hello agian, just so you know, my formal education is to be a physical education teacher, that is not what I am, but that is what my education background is. So I said that to say this. I would like to take some libertys here and change a couple of words, just for a simplistic concept. I want to change the word "believe" to "join".
Now if I am not a very healthy person and I want to become healthy, what must I do. I need to: Eat correctly, excersise correctly, and pay dues. And to do this correctly I join the health club. Now I am a sinfull person and I want to be saved, what must I do. I need to: Hear the word, repent, and be baptized to put on Jesus for my sins (who paid for them). I must join (believe) Jesus, to be added to the church, for it is only thruogh Christ that we will see the father.
If I join a health club, am I now in greater shape? Do I sleep better? Do I eat better? Do I think clearer? Do I work better? NO! I even have a card that shows I'm a member of the Health club, I have clothes that I ware to the health club, I have reciets the show I paid for my membership. What is wrong... OH, I have to Eat correctly, excersise correctly. Hum, the guy at the front desk just said if I join the health club I would be healthier.
Stay in the word.
Seek and Ye shall find.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:49 pm

Acts 4:12 (KJV) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

The demons lived with God, and so obviously they know him. The demons, however, deny Jesus, the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved.

John 3:18 (KJV) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

As for works, show me scripture that says that works save. You will not find one, however, you will find scripture that says that salvation IS NOT of works. Works after salvation are for profit, of rewards or position.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (KJV) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.

"NO OTHER FOUNDATION CAN NO MAN LAY THAN THAT IS LAID, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST"

Tell me, what kind of works do you think those are that are compared to wood, hay, and stubble. There will be some christians who will not have very good works on that day, BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.

Acts 4:12 (KJV) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The thief called upon the name of the Lord, and he was saved, just like the scriptures read (no preservatives or assumptions added).

JSM17
Posts: 275
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 5:16 pm
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois

Post by JSM17 » Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:10 pm

There is a post that no one has bothered to look at it, it is labeled Paul verses James, I think it would be great if someone took on that task, because in your statement (Luke1) you said show me one scripture that states works involved with salvation. Try this one on, and please lets be realistic and honest.

James 2:14
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
NASU

Before you get all excited about answering, lets establish a few truths first.

1) James asks a rhetorical question which deserves the answer "NO"

2) Yes these are saved brethren in whom he is speaking to, so no within the context he is not talking about salvation, but the principle is this. If one comes to faith but does not work then can that faith save him? NO, then what does that mean does that mean he really never had faith? That is not what James is saying he is say one can have faith but does not work can that faith save him? NO

3) Saving faith involves works no matter how you try to justfy the LUTHER THEORIES Abraham was not saved by faith alone!

2:24
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
NASU

So either James is telling us that a saved person who has faith will not work and lose his salvation because he will not work or he is telling us that one who comes to faith but will not work has not been saved because a faith with out obedient works of God cannot save!

But really this has nothing to do with the thief one the cross because he died before the NEW COVENANT!

You focus on all these belief scriptures but ignore all the other scriptures that prove that obedience is required for salvation.

JWB8
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:06 am
Location: Home
Contact:

About belief!

Post by JWB8 » Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:36 pm

Greetings one and all. :D I am so glad that the term believe is been brought up so much. I am reminded of what I believe in. Jesus, and HE tells us, to be saved; to Hear THE WORD, Believe, Repent, Confess, and be Baptized. I believe this, do you? :roll: See, to believe in Jesus, is to believe in who he is, what he stands for, and what he says. To believe Jesus is to do what Jesus tells us too. Please, Join Jesus, practice what he tells you, or you will not be a member.
Seek and Ye shall find.

sledford
Posts: 114
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:06 pm
Contact:

Re: Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith o

Post by sledford » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:10 am

luke1 wrote:The demons lived with God, and so obviously they know him. The demons, however, deny Jesus, the only name given under heaven whereby we must be saved.

John 3:18 (KJV) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

As for works, show me scripture that says that works save. You will not find one, however, you will find scripture that says that salvation IS NOT of works. Works after salvation are for profit, of rewards or position.
luke1, you're going to have to harmonize James with what you're saying as they don't agree. Please specifically address the context of James 2 in your exegesis of these other scriptures you have quoted. And, considering what James says and we have recorded in other places, scripture disagrees with statement that the "demons deny Jesus". No, James says that they "believe and tremble". There is no denying of Jesus at all in the demons, they know exactly who he is and what he has done. And we have this recorded in Acts:
Acts 19:13-16 wrote:13 Then certain of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to pronounce the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, We command you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.
14 There were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish high priest, who were doing this.
15 And the evil spirit answered, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?
16 And the man who had the evil spirit leaped on them, subdued them and overcame them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
The demons and evil spirits KNOW exactly who Jesus is and "believe" the same way you are defining belief as inward only. What the demons lack is action in keeping with the belief in submission and obedience to Christ.
luke1 wrote:As for works, show me scripture that says that works save. You will not find one, however, you will find scripture that says that salvation IS NOT of works. Works after salvation are for profit, of rewards or position.
Here's one in Hebrews:
Hebrews 6:1-10 wrote:1 Therefore, leaving the elementary principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of instructions about baptisms, and of the laying on of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do, if God permits.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to be brought back again to repentance; for they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and hold him up to public disgrace.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes often upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful for those by whom it is farmed, receives a blessing from God:
8 But that which bears thorns and thistles is worthless, and is near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, though we speak thus, we are persuaded of better things concerning you, things that accompany salvation.
10 For God is not unrighteous, so as to forget the work and love which you have shown for his name's sake in having ministered to the saints, as you continue to do.
The Hebrew writer just warns them that they can fall away and lose their salvation and hope. And then wraps the thought up in v8-10 by telling them that salvation is hand in hand with "work and love". So, yes, there is indeed scripture that says that works save. Now, it's not the ONLY thing that saves but you cannot ignore that scripture (James 2 and Heb 6) tell us works are an ingredient of salvation. The Jews believed in "works only" salvation and now there are those that say it is "faith (belief) only" salvation. What Scripture teaches is neither of these but "faith working" salvation.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

Implications of the thief on the cross, saved by faith only

Post by luke1 » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:48 pm

I will have to get back to you on most of your post.

The thief called upon the name of the Lord and was saved, just like Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." and guess what , the thief was saved

If you disagree with Romans 10:13, then you tell me, how was the thief saved?

Post Reply