In the Day of Judgement

What can I do to be saved? Place to discuss sin and its remedy.

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luke1
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Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

In the Day of Judgement

Post by luke1 » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:23 am

I'm sure we have all thought of this. especially in regards to loves ones who might not have taken the opportunity to
make peace with God, and accept his free gift of salvation, through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If they did not, did their death deny them the only opportunity they shall have, and therefore be forever lost. And not only these of the dispensation of grace period, but what about all others since the creation of the earth, is there anything mentioned as to a second opportunity for these to be saved?

Scripture will certainly reveal some amazing facts.
Let's go to Peter: Acts 3:20 (KJV) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

"until the times of restitution of all things" is referring to the day of judgement. And this "day" of judgement is indeed the 1000 year reign of Christ Jesus on earth.
2 Peter 3:8 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Now lets go to Paul: Acts 24:14-15 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

notice that Paul has used the "hope" in reference to the resurrection, both of the "just and unjust".

Now let's take Revelation 20:6 (note, I will come back to verse 5 of Rev. 20, later on)
Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

From this verse, many have assumed that only those of the first resurrection are saved. therefore, any resurrection following this one is for the unsaved. (second resurrection)

Those who have taken part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy, and have been granted immortality, therefore "on such the second death hath no power". You must remember that no human being, before this point, or after this point has been granted immortality, except for these of the first resurrection, thus the saying, "on such the second death hath no power". All others, ALL, are still subject to the second death.

Now let's go to some scripture that indicates that not all who take part in the second resurrection are lost, as some presume.

Rev 20:11-15 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Lets take the last verse, and whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. There is an indication here, that there were indeed some found written in the book of life. Remember the text is referring to the great white throne judgement. The first resurrection has already taken place on who the second death hath no power. Yet we find here an indication that some were found, if not, why mention it. Let's read it again, and whosoever was not found (therefore some were found) written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Lets go now to Matthew 10:14-15

Matthew 10:14-15 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

How many times have we heard this, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. The usual response to this is usually, there are degrees of punishment in hell. First of all, the verse does not mention hell, it reads "in the day of judgment". And when is hell ever "more tolerable" for anyone, much less, Sodom and Gomorrha?

Again, lets go to Matthew 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

More tolerable for Sodom "in the day of judgement" but tolerable for both.


Capernaum apparently thought that they were held in high esteem with God, thus the allusion "exalted unto heaven" but shalt be brought down to hell. This is a reference as to highest as opposed to lowest. And again the mention of "more tolerable" IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT'. Lets not make light of the mention of Tyre and Sidon: they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes, had the mighty works been done in them.

I will continue to post in increments, as I have been unable to post the whole text at one time. There is a lot more scripture that reveals that a second opportunity is given, and how the inhabitants of these evil and wicked cities are considered justified to be allowed an opportunity to be saved.
Last edited by luke1 on Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

In the Day of Judgement

Post by luke1 » Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:21 pm

To continue:

Matthew 12:18-20 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment ( Gk. krisis) to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment(Gk. krisis) unto victory. (Note: rendering for the word judgment in Greek)
He is not going to shout, nor break a bruised reed till he send forth judgment (Gk. krisis) unto victory.

Matthew 12:36 (KJV) But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. Jesus is not going to take his throne into hell, to hear these accounts, it will occur IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT, the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

Lets go to Matthew 12:41-42 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment(Gk. krisis) with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment(Gk. krisis) with this generation, and shall condemn(Gk. katakrino) it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Matthew is stating here that the men of Nineveh and the queen of the south shall rise WITH THIS GENERATION, the same generation that lived when Matthew was alive, and shall condemn it.
Many are being raise during the 1000 year reign of Christ, and ALL have to be raise to give account. ALL have to be raise before the second death is thrown into the lake of fire.

Genesis 12:3 (KJV) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
In Abraham's seed, which is Christ shall all the families of the earth be blessed. Can anyone truely say that ALL the families of the earth have been blessed?
Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in DUE TIME.

Now I need to refresh some scripture as to how and why, the gentiles who were utterly lost came to be accepted, but not only in the period of the dispensation of grace, those who are in Christ Jesus by faith; the new testament saints, but also ALL gentiles who lived prior to that period.

Romans 11:25-28 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Israel has been blinded in part, but they have never been unsaved. "And so all Israel shall be saved":
Salvation is of the Jews. There has not been a people that have been so severly punished as the Jews. It was Israel who was to be a beacon of light to all other nations. Israel having received favor, was to set the example. When Israel, as a nation, rejected Jesus, God, then called out of the gentile nations, those who were to received favor
through faith in Jesus.

Israel will be restored as the head of the nations, and will be the beacon of light of which God purposed, but this will occur during the 1000 year reign of Christ Jesus. Let's read again: "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for
your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."

Now let's go to Ezekiel 16:36-41 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them; Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness. And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy. And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare. They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords. And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more.

Here Ezekiel is speaking of Israel, now let's continue...

Ezekiel 16:48-52 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters. Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done. Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

Remember: Salvation is of the Jews, And so all Israel shall be saved.

Now let's go on: Ezekiel 16:53-55 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Some will say that it is the land that is restored, that it will again be fruitful and green, shall return it to their former estate.
But, it also says, "When I shall bring again their CAPTIVITY, those who are been held captives (humans).
And who is holding them captives? Death, they all are the captives of death. How can any Sodomite be found today? God destroyed all the Sodomites along with the other cities. The only way that these can be restored to their former estate is that God will raise them up during the 1000 reign of Christ.

Then look what it says about Israel: "That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, IN THAT THOU ARE A COMFORT UNTO THEM. And how is Israel a comfort to them:
"Thou also, which hast judged thy sister, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable then they: THEY ARE MORE RIGHTEOUS THAN THOU: YEA, BE THOU CONFOUNDED ALSO, AND BEAR THY SHAME, IN THAT THOU HAST JUSTIFIED THY SISTERS.

Salvation is of the Jews. "Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live.

With such a proclamation we can see the nature of a Just and Loving God.

I've got to go now, but there is more.
Last edited by luke1 on Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

In the Day of Judgement

Post by luke1 » Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:48 pm

Before, I go any further, I'd like to say that by no means am I the originator of this theme, as I know that it has been written of before, however, since I did not see this subject matter on this forum, I thought it was interesting to read.
I must give credit, where credit is due, and so the general outline and thesis is taken from an article written by David J. Heintzman, which I thought was excellent. Having said that, I must go again. Until later. In Christ Jesus God bless

luke1
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

In the Day of Judgement

Post by luke1 » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:26 pm

Continuing: Israel who had been shown so much more favor than Sodom and Samaria, would be much more accountable. The verse reads: As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters............Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins:..........they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

In the day of judgement, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Samaria, than for Israel, for they will all be raised during the same period. "When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to you former estate"

According to this scripture, are we to think, that an absolute just God, will cast Sodom and Samaria into the lake of fire, and just punish saved Israel? In light of "they are more righteous than thou":.........."in that thou hast justified thy sisters". No mention is made of hell or lake of fire in this scripture. Isn't it more acceptable that our absolute just God will correct, and redeem as many as will conform to his will. Remember, ALL the nations (gentiles) that are being raised during this period/second resurrection are still under the power of the second death.

At this point I would like to address 20:5 (KJV) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" This is one of those verses which can be problematic, if it cannot be reconciled with other scripture. All the nations (gentiles) which are being raise during the 1000 year reign of Christ (judgement day) are still under the power of death. After the 1000 year reign of Christ, all those nations who, after correction have conformed to Gods will, based on their works, according to their works will be counted as righteous and will be granted immortality. They "lived not again until the thousand years were finished" because death still had power over all nations which were being raised. Those who will be counted as righteous, according to their works, will be granted immortality, after the 1000 years were finished. All other nations who, according to their works, were not found righteous WILL NOT be granted immortality, and death will continued to have power of these, until they are cast into the lake of fire. And so it reads, " And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." "This is the second death".

Now, I will deal with another verse in scripture which is also problematic. We will find this scripture in:
John 5:29 (KJV) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. The same Greek word(krisis) here, that has been translated as damnation, is the same Greek word (krisis) which has been translated "judgement" in several other instances. If the scribe did make a mistake in transcribing this word, then it would have read "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and those that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgement." (Gk krisis)
However, if this is not the case, then we have to reconcile this verse with what is said about the resurrection.
We are dealing with two resurrections, one is unto the resurrection of life, for those who have done good. Now we know that those,, who through faith in Jesus, will go unto the resurrection of life (immortality). However, these are not the only ones who will be granted immortality. The first part of the verse indicates, "for those who have done good". And as it has been shown already, there will be some who will be corrected in the second resurrection who will be found righteous according to their works or for those who have done good. And so what we have here, is a generalization of two resurrections. Those who either by faith, or according to their works are found righteous will go "unto the resurrection of life," and those that have done evil, unto the resurrection of the damnation".

I will close this installment with Ezekiel 18:23 (KJV) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

JSM17
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Post by JSM17 » Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:33 am

Maybe I missed something when I read scriptures like "Rom 1:16

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
NASU
Apart from the Gospel no one will be saved for it is the power of God to save those who believe.

Our Lord makes it clear what happens to those who believe but would not be obedient to Him. John 8:35 and on shows those who believed in Christ and what he was saying, but they would not follow the words of Jesus ( Active obedient faith), instead Jesus tells them that their father is the devil.

It would seem to me that in trying to calm those who have lost loved ones who were not saved is honorable, but is only going to teach those who have not died and have not obeyed the gospel to not worry because they will get another chance.

When someone dies there is judgement, (Heb 9:26-27
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,) which tells us that yes we await the final gathering of judgement, but our fate is sealed upon death, earth is the testing ground of our faith which saves.

Disobedience is a lack of faith, and a lack of faith is disobedience towards God.

I find it hard to believe that no one has attempted to deal with your thoughts on this issue, other than your initial points being very long and most people will not take the time to read all the way though, people will be better moved by small steps than by large strides. With this idea of one being saved apart from obedient faith upon earth in Christ is a far stretch for most, looking at the parables of Judgement and other many scriptures do not help this theory.

Maybe I have misunderstood your thought to begin with, but it is hard to get a full understanding of your thoughts through your first initial posts.

If we live disobedient lives towards God all our lives and then somehow get another chance to change our minds after death, when we are facing God and have another chance to choose, I doubt their would be anyone who would deny God at the judgment when we are facing Him.

The scriptures that you have listed to prove your theory are many and I doubt many would sit and refute each one, that is why it is better to start with a few thoughts hopefully your strongest point first so that some might feel that they can deal with your ideas, whether to agree or disagree.

Apart from Christ there is no life either here or after!

luke1
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Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

In the Day of Judgement

Post by luke1 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:54 pm

Matthew 25:31-40 (KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


This is basically another view of the great white throne judgement. The criteria on this judgement is based wholly on works, on the treatment of Christs' brethren.

The first resurrection has already taken place, and the criteria for salvation was through the righteousness of God, through faith in Christ Jesus.

JSM17
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Post by JSM17 » Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:36 pm

I am confused, what does your last post have to do with your original post?

Luke1 siad this
I'm sure we have all thought of this. especially in regards to loves ones who might not have taken the opportunity to
make peace with God, and accept his free gift of salvation, through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. If they did not, did their death deny them the only opportunity they shall have, and therefore be forever lost. And not only these of the dispensation of grace period, but what about all others since the creation of the earth, is there anything mentioned as to a second opportunity for these to be saved?
Im still wondering how one can be saved without obedience to Christ here on earth?

Jarrod
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Post by Jarrod » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:50 pm

luke1, I appreciate your thoughts and comments. 8)

However, I do want to make an observation here.

To support your case, you are jumping immediately into some of the most difficult and obscure passages in the Bible. Until we have really done some in depth study of subjects such as the Kingdom of God, the reign of Christ, the reign of the saints, the resurrection, and others, according to what some of the easier (note I say easier, not easy) to understand passages, we shouldn't spend too much time in Revelation 20.

Every commentator pretty much, regardless of their position, acknowledges Rev. 20 to be one of the most difficult chapters in the Bible. We should be careful, therefore, in trying to establish a doctrine of belief on it without extensive study of some other passages.

Also, as JSM17 asked, how can one be saved in Heaven without obedience on earth? :? Hebrews 9:27, along with Romans 2:2, II Cor. 5:10, and a plethora of other passages seem to contradict this view.

luke1
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In the Day of Judgement

Post by luke1 » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:19 pm

I will deal with the topic of obedience. And in dealing with the topic of obedience, I will deal with the topic of disobedience.

It is disobedience that got us here in the first place. We are sinners, because of the disobedience of Adam.

The Living Bible: Exodus 19: The Israelis arrived in the Sinai peninsula three months after the night of their departure from Egypt. After breaking camp at Rephidim, they came to the base of Mt. Sinai and set up camp there. Moses climbed the rugged mountain to meet with God, and from somewhere in the mountain God call to him and said, Give these instructions to the people of Israel, Tell them, You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and I brought you to myself as though on eagles's wings. Now if you will OBEY me and keep your part of my contract with you, you shall be my own little flock from among all the nations of the earth; for all the earth is mine. And you shall be a kingdom of priests to God, a holy nation.
Moses returned from the mountain and called together the leaders of the people and told them what the Lord had said. They all responded in unison, We will certainly do everything he asks of us.

The necessity of a new covenant was because, they did not obey. The fault was squarely put on the human factor.
Hebrews 8:8 (KJV) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Hebrews 8:9 (KJV) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not,

saith the Lord.
Hebrews 8:10-13 (KJV) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

God tells us that if the first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. Apparently the first covenant had faults. But not Gods '. It was the people who were at fault, because they did not obey.

So God is going to give them a second chance with another covenant. Do you see anywhere in verses 10 thru 13, where God says it will be dependent on mans' obedience. God says, "I will", "I will" "I will"
The new covenant guarantees success through his strength alone.

I will get to the other list of questions when I have time to post.

Jarrod
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Post by Jarrod » Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:03 pm

And to whom does he say "I will"? To those who faitfully obeyed him, as chapter 11 makes clear. Those listed as having served God faithfully under the Old Covenant are the "they" under consideration in Hebrews 11:40, which says "God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us."

The fulfillment of the hope of Israel was not separate and apart from, but rather intimately connected to the salvation by grace through faith that came to the gentiles. We are all saved by His blood, which is the main point of Hebrews 10.

luke1
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Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:30 am

In the Day of Judgement

Post by luke1 » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:27 pm

It was intended that man obey God from the very beginning, when God created Adam. Adam disobeyed. I have nothing against obedience, unfortunately, it is something that man has not been able to do. If man obeyed there would not have been a need for a new covenant.

I would like to return this thread to its main theme, somehow, we got side tracked, with the theme of the thief, saved by faith only thread. This tread pertains to the theme "In the Day of Judgement".

thank you, and God bless

JSM17
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Post by JSM17 » Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:08 am

NO MAN WILL BE SAVED APART FROM CHRIST!

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