But the Bible speaks of the wicked being tormented "forever," doesn't it?

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But the Bible speaks of the wicked being tormented "forever," doesn't it?

Post by email » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:15 am

Inquiry in Reference To: [url=http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/hell.html]http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/hell.html[/url]
Forever and Ever

But the Bible speaks of the wicked being tormented "forever," doesn't it?

The term "for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. It is like the word "tall," which means something different in describing men, trees, or mountains. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights." (See also Jonah 1:17.)

In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out.

The teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people to atheism and insanity than any other invention of the devil. It is slander upon the loving character of a tender, gracious heavenly Father and has done untold harm to the Christian cause.

Death, Not Eternal Torment

The Bible tells us that "the wages of sin is" not eternal life in hellfire, but "death" ([b]Romans 6:23[/b]), the same penalty God assured Adam and Eve would be theirs if they ate the forbidden fruit.

Ezekiel states clearly that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" ([b]Ezekiel 18:4[/b]), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as "stubble" and would become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the redeemed ([b]Malachi 4:1, 3[/b]). Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the "earth."

Compare that with Psalm 37:10 ("For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be"), Psalm 68:2 ("as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God"), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.

Interestingly, it was the devil who was first to suggest that sinners would not die ([b]Genesis 3: 4[/b]). A hell where sinners never perish would prove the devil right and would make God, who told Eve she would "surely die" as a result of transgression ([b]Genesis 2:17[/b]), a liar.
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the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31

Post by email » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:17 am

Doesn't the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 teach an eternal hell of torment?

No, Indeed! It is simply a parable used to emphasize a point. Many facts make it clear that this is a parable. A few are as follows:

Abraham's bosom is not heaven (Hebrews 11:8-10, 16)

People in hell can't talk to those in heaven (Isaiah 65: 17)

The dead are in their graves (Job 17:13; John 5:28, 29). The rich man was in bodily form with eyes, a tongue, etc., yet we know that the body does not go to hell at death. It is very obvious that the body remains in the grave, as the Bible says. If you'd like to know more about what happens after you die visit The Truth About Death website.

Men are rewarded at Christ's second coming, not at death (Revelation 22:11, 12)

The lost are punished in hell at the end of the world, not when they die (Matthew 13:40-42). The point of the story is found in verse 31 of Luke 16. Parables cannot be taken literally. If we took parables literally, then we must believe that trees talk! (See this parable in Judges 9:8-15).

By representing the beggar as being in heaven and the rich man as lost, Jesus taught His hearers that, contrary to the prevailing view, wealth was not necessarily an indicator of divine favor, just as poverty was not a sign of God's judgement upon a person.

Jesus was also seeking to educate the Jews that salvation would not be theirs by birthright. The rich man in torments calls out to "father Abraham," just as the Jews of Jesus' day were mistakenly pointing to heritage as proof of their assurance of salvation.

Furthermore, Jesus was seeking to lead His hearers to understand that only faithfulness to God's Word would prepare them to enter into eternal life. He told them, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead" (Luke 16:31).

To use the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in order to promote the false doctrine of an eternally burning hell is to misuse God's Word and to misrepresent His character.
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But the Bible speaks of the wicked being tormented "forever," doesn't it?

Post by m273p15c » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:27 pm

Thanks for your questions and expression of your position regarding hell. As you noted, we do have an article regarding the duration of hell, but it only touches on the topic briefly. I do not currently have time to delve into a lengthy debate on the subject. But, I will offer you a couple of thoughts and links:

Primarily, yes, "forever" does not always mean "time without end" or "through all eternity". You are correct on that point. It may mean to the end of the current era or age. However, it can also have the meaning of "for all time" and eternity. For example, the saints will enjoy "eternal (Gr., aionos - forever) life" in heaven with Jesus (Matthew 25:46). Is that just a short period of time? Of course not, so we have to look at the context to determine the usage of the word. Curiously, the word for "everlasting punishment" resides in the exact same verse and context as "eternal life" in Matthew 25:46 ("And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.") It's the exact same Greek word in both instances, aionos! So, if the word means time-without-end (i.e., eternity) in the first part of the verse, why would it have a different meaning in the first part of the exact same verse? The words are used in parallel! For as long as life in heaven endures, so will punishment endure in hell!

Secondly, death does not necessarily mean destruction; otherwise, the good and righteous would both cease to exist, when we "die". James explains that death should be more fundamentally understood as a separation!
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (James 2:26 NKJV)
Likewise, the "second death", eternal death is complete and utter separation from God (Revelation 20:14-15), the source of true, eternal life. Therein lies the true punishment of hell, I think. The soul is "destroyed" in the sense that it is "ruined", not annihilated. There is room in the word for both interpretations, and we must be careful that we don't work too hard to limit the word to one meaning at the expense of consistency with ALL Bible verses.

Here's a few sermons you could download and listen to, using your MP3 player or computer:
These may be helpful too - but I can't remember the exact subject:
I have a couple of good articles that I used to forward to people, but I can't find them now. :(

I'm sorry that I can't offer you more at the moment. I pray you will find this helpful and worthy of thoughtful, prayerful Bible study and self examination.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12),

m273p15c
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)

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RE: But the Bible speaks of the wicked being tormented

Post by email » Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:40 pm

Just one more question if the bible says there shall be no more pain or suffering then god is lying because there will be people suffering some where in the universe right? I believe the wicked will be destroyed in the fire. How can they be ashes under our feet or stubble is the bible says.
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Re: But the Bible speaks of the wicked being tormented "forever," doesn't it?

Post by m273p15c » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:49 am

The Bible does not say there will be no more pain and suffering in the whole universe. The statement about no pain is only made in regard to heaven (Revelation 21:1-8).

There are many passages, especially in the OT, which refer to physical Israel conquering their national foes. It would be a grave mistake to interpret those as referring to eternal destruction. Other passages may be dealing with physical judgment here in this realm, which was closely related to God's physical protection of Israel until their production and rejection of the Messiah, Jesus. Many of the passages you quoted in your original email pertained to physical judgment or protection, but not eternal consequences. If you take the time to look at the context of each of those passages, I believe you will see that.

I pray you find this helpful. May God help us to have a sincere love of truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12),

m273p15c
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)

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Re: But the Bible speaks of the wicked being tormented

Post by email » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:44 am

I did find it helpful - thank you
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