who ordains a minister

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who ordains a minister

Post by email » Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:56 pm

I also want you know that I am a young minister. I believe that iron sharpens iron. I look forward to picking your brain and sharpening my skills. I am a licensed and ordained minister. So feel free to bounce a question or two my way. You don't have to baby me just tell it like it is based on sound doctrine.

Now for my next question expound upon the Holy Spirit, Baptism, and Speaking in tongues. I don't believe that everyone speaks in tongues and I don't believe you have to speak in tongues to rx the holy spirit and I don't believe that you have to speak in tongues to be saved. I also don't believe in once saved always saved.( we will still have a free will, Lets not forget that satan got kicked out the kingdom) Are we borne with the holy spirit? I know this a lot. I think you for time and patience. I will also be studying and searching the scriptures for answers.

May God Bless you
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Post by m273p15c » Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:07 pm

Ha, ha - no babying here. Thanks for the permission to speak in a straightforward manner - don't be surprised if I take you up on it. ;-)

May I ask you a thought question, while you're waiting on me to address the Holy Spirit question?

Who ordained you and licensed you? God or men? What do you think about the practice of ordaining/licensing ministers? Is it something that is found in Scripture? Just a thought question. I'm not trying to attack you, or anything. Let me know what you think. It might be good for us to think together about the nature, structure, and organization of the church.

BTW, I posted some articles regarding the Holy Spirit on our web-page. You might skim over those, because I won't repeat any information in my response. I'll try to only answer what is left unanswered by the articles. The articles you might want to examine are "Irresistible Grace" and "One Baptism".

Thanks for your honesty, zeal, and courage.

May God draw us closer to Him.
Last edited by m273p15c on Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by email » Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:16 am

m273p15c wrote:Who ordained you and licensed you? God or men?
Please consider:
Jeremiah wrote:Jeremiah 1

4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
8 Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD.
9 Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. 10 See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.
I believe that God called me and ordained me. Many are called but few are chosen. I also was ordained and licensed by my pastor.
m273p15c wrote:What do you think about the practice of ordaining/licensing ministers?
I believe it is a useful tool that serves a purpose in the eyes of man. In general they open doors that would be closed to must. I view it as my pastor taking accountability for the doctrine he has taught me. That doctrine has to be based solely on the word of God. The authority that I have can only come from God and can only be executed by the holy spirit working in me. It is my responsibility to study to show myself a workman unto God that need not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth. However, it is also a tool that can be misused. I’m learning now that some people need to be licensed and ordained; hence they need to be taught sound doctrine. There is only one truth. However be licensed and ordained doesn’t mean I’m sound in doctrine or the truth, It just means I have a piece of paper approved of by man. The truth can only come from the Holy Spirit teaching us and living within us.
m273p15c wrote:Is it something that is found in Scripture?
No. If God called you, he ordained you and he qualified you. God completes what he starts and provides us with all we need to accomplish his will.
m273p15c wrote:Just a thought question. I'm not trying to attack you, or anything. Let me know what you think.
I didn’t take it that way because I know that the authority is in God not a piece of paper. Only God can sit in judgement of the my life and what he has called me do for him.

My life is not my life anymore therefore it is a open book that will be read by many some will see the truth, hear truth, and others deny that truth. Questions are result of someone reading to see if there is real substance there or just an illusion of truth and understanding.
m273p15c wrote:It might be good for us to think together about the nature, structure, and organization of the church.
No problem
m273p15c wrote:BTW, I posted some articles regarding the Holy Spirit on our web-page. You might skim over those, because I won't repeat any information in my response. I'll try to only answer what is left unaswered by the articles. The articles you might want to examine are "Irresistible Grace" and "One Baptism".
I will read them

Thank you for honesty and for being available.

May God bless you.
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Post by email » Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:14 pm

How are you doing today? Just writing to see if you had a chance to response to my questions? Just making sure I didn't delete by accident. Also on the subject of being ordained and licensed. Paul often appointed or ordained men to be ministers but he did according to the will of God and by the fruits of spirit that were shown in a man's life and if that man was mature in the God. Paul discipled the men he appointed or ordained. Paul acted on the evidence of God being in a man's life and God being the Head of that life.
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Post by m273p15c » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:39 pm

Thanks for patiently waiting for a reply to your questions, which I originally asked of you! I am finally caught up on my previous correspondence and articles. Even though it is late, I hope this will be of some spiritual profit to you. BTW, after I finish this, I plan to address your original questions about the Holy Spirit. As mentioned earlier, I believe some of the questions are already on our web-site. If you haven't already, you may want to examine the articles on the Holy Spirit in relation to Calvinism.

The proof of your ordination as an evangelist illuminates a difference in our way of thinking and approaching the Bible. This is no big surprise. We each individually encounter people all the time, who approach life, religion, and the Scriptures differently than us. The important point is how we react to this. Do we listen honestly so that we may understand and evaluate the difference? Or, do we rush on, dismissing the difference as meaningless? Or, do we fight for our original position, no matter the cost, even if the cost is our integrity and love of truth? Our actions reveal our heart. I pray that you and I approach this fundamental difference with a Christian attitude, including love for each other and love for the truth (James 5:19-20; II Thessalonians 2:9-12).

Regarding your use of Jeremiah 1:4-10, do you believe this passage has reference to you? Does it prove that God called you to be a minister? Although written for our benefit, this passage relates to the calling of Jeremiah to be a prophet. He received a direct calling from God. We cannot take all words out of the Bible and directly apply them to us. We must evaluate the context of the passage by asking questions like: "To whom were the words directed?" "Is my situation similar to the recipient of the original wording?" "Is there any circumstantial considerations that would make this particular passage applicable, or non-applicable to me?"

Since this passage does not reference you by name, then whatever reasoning you used to justify your ordination would likewise justify the ordination of anybody and everybody. Clearly this is not the case. Also, this passage speaks to the ordination of one as a "prophet", not as an "evangelist"; therefore, it would not apply anyway. Why do you think this passage applies to you?

The second part of your answer manifests my original concern - Who is your pastor? Where did he get such authority? If his authority is granted by the one that ordained him, and his authority granted by the one who ordained him, and so on down the line, then that necessarily requires a direct "lineage" of ordination all the way back to somebody with real authority, like Jesus. However, we find the gospel does not need any such direct lineage. The "seed" of the kingdom is the gospel (Luke 8:1-5; I Peter 1:22-23). Anywhere the gospel is preached, men may obey it and grow up into being either an elder, deacon, teacher, or evangelist (Ephesians 4:11-16). The church can be restored out of no where - All that is needed is the gospel.

Regarding its usefulness in the eyes of men, please consider why that is important. I understand one bending to the customs of men to remove unessential barriers to teaching the gospel (I Corinthians 9:19-23); however, I also believe that we should not take up unnecessary burdens that allow others to promote a spiritual party, which causes division and obstructs the truth (Galatians 2:1-6; Philippians 3:1-7). Much division exist because of the forming of parties, which originate in human tradition and continue to be sustained by the same power (Matthew 15:1-20). Were you ordained as a minister of just the gospel? Or, were you ordained as an official minister of church X? Is this consistent with the pattern that Paul expressed about us wearing the names of men, or any name other than that of our Savior (I Corinthians 1:10-13)?

I am somewhat confused as to whether you believe the process of ordination is consistent with the Scriptures. At first you said that it is not found in Scripture, but later you said that Paul did ordain other men. If you are willing, I would like to better understand your thinking. It's all right if you change your mind as you study through this. I would consider that a sign of humility and strength, if it is based on Scripture.

My main concern is the notion of ordination by men, specifically that men have authority to appoint preachers and that without such authority, no man may preach with God's blessing. I do not see this as part of the Scriptural pattern (all Christians are priests and ministers - I Peter 2:5,9); however, I do see it as being a key to maintaining denominations of human origin (I Corinthians 1:10-13). What passages would you use to justify the continued practice of preachers ordaining successive preachers? There is a pattern for teachers to teach others who can teach also (II Timothy 2:2), but that seems to be much different than the process of bestowing the authority inherent in ordination.

Paul made it a point to lay aside all ornaments that may attract men's faith to him instead of God and His Word (I Corinthians 2:1-5). Why can we not do the same today? If we change the bait, we will catch a kind of fish that God did not intend to be caught. :-) People that are impressed by titles instead of the gospel, are not the kind of people God wants (Matthew 23:1-12; I Peter 5:5-7).

May God bless us with a deeper love of truth and commitment to obey Him.

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