using women pastors just plain works!

[email]

< The following snippet is taken from one of our online correspondence courses. The following dialog has been extracted and rendered anonymous to protect the privacy of our correspondents. >

... traditions is good only if they give God the glory such as ... our pastor appreciation day where we truly appreciate our pastor and our 2 lay pastors of their commitment to our deaf congregation! our pastor had been preaching and teaching the deaf to know Christ for over 35 years! Praise God!

thank you!

[m273p15c]

<anonymized snippet from correspondence course reply>

... again I pray you found this study useful. I hope it will continue to help you grow spiritually, even if it provides challenging thoughts. ...

I am glad to hear that your "pastor" has been a spiritual light to your community. However, I am concerned that she has accepted the role of "pastor". Although modern traditions accept women as both public teachers and pastors, it was strictly forbidden in New Testament. Women were not to teach publicly (I Timothy 2:11-14; I Corinthians 14:34-35), and only men were able to meet the qualifications of being a pastor (I Timothy 3:1-12; Titus 1:5-9). Please see our articles on "The Leadership of Women in the Church?", "The Offices of the Church", and "Elders".

Our hearts are revealed when we are confronted with unexpected and undesirable truth. I could certainly be wrong about this, but I hope you will prayerfully consider these Scriptures, along with the Scriptures provided in the articles that I mentioned.

Life is full of moments when we realize that we were ignorant of important truths. I wasn't born knowing everything. I still don't know everything, and I suspect you may not either. The important point is to answer the question, not "What have we done?", but we should rather focus on the question, "What will we do?"

May God bless you with an open and honest heart as you prayerfully consider these points. I am here, available for any questions or comments that you may have. I will serve you in any way that I can. May you shine like the Son.

P.S. - Please consider rereading this entire note, applying the answers that you and I provided to this topic of women serving as public teachers and pastors. ... You will be in my prayers.

P.P.S - Feel free to share this with your pastor. I would be glad to study with both you and her by way of e-mail.

[email]

... when you said not allow women preachers, may i remind you of a few women that God did use in the Old Testament as well as in the New Testament.

Ruth, Esther, Huldah, Debroah, Rahab, Tamar, Hannah, Priscilla, Eunice and Lois, Timothy's mother and grandmother, they all had influences over men in spiritual teaching, leading, encouraging, helping in church, and so forth.

however, i firmly believed that today there are many women who had to take up the mantle and lead the church because of many men who fell into temptation and sinned against our Lord.

When i first met current pastor, my former pastor left us for his retirement, but unfortunately, half of our church followed him and his wife (who is also a pastor). i did not believe in women preachers either, but over the years, i had seen God's power in our current pastor's life. She had truly helped us become leaders in our church, taught us to lead others, to teach, to preach, and to obey God's calling.

now, i will not argue the point that women are not allowed to lead, but if there is a shortage of preachers (male), then God must take up the calling and call women to fill in the position forsaken by men because of sin, adultery, sexual deviations, etc...

you must admit that there is a harvest, but there is shortage of workers, especially men! i have seen many men in our church leaving God for the world because of sex sins. i have seen how we women had to take up the mantle, and help the church stay in focus in loving the Lord, spreading the word, and helping the church grow spiritually strong.

thank you.

[m273p15c]

Thank you for your swift reply. ... I would respond about the difference between the Old and New Testaments - how the Old Testament no longer holds authority for us; only the New Testament pattern is our standard (Luke 9:28-36; Colossians 2:13-14; Galatians 3:19-29; Romans 7:1-7; Hebrews 1-13). ... I would agree that Lois and Eunice certainly influenced their grandson and son in their home; however, there is a vast difference between public, authoritative leadership of adults and the parenting of children. ...

However, based on your own comments, I believe you know the Scriptures do not support the position of women serving as pastors or public, authoritative teachers over men (I Timothy 2:11-14; I Corinthians 14:34-35; I Timothy 3:1-12; Titus 1:5-9), but yet you have accepted it based on your own judgment of the circumstances. Based on your own words, you have chosen what you believe to be unscriptural, because you believe it has produced good.

My only questions are, "Whose judgment matters?", and "Why is it called 'faith', if you only obey what makes sense to you?".

We walk by faith - not by sight (II Corinthians 5:7). Trust God and His Son completely.

I will continue to prayerfully meditate on this, as I pray you will do also.

May God bless us both with eyes to see, ears to hear, and hearts to accept His Word (Matthew 13:1-23).

[email]

well, i did not think i was wrong in making a statement that God does use women in the position of a leader. i do know what the Scriptures says about women and leadership roles. yes, paul did say that, but you have to remember that if God allows women to remain in the ministry and the ministry flourishs so i would think that God is all for it.

you have to remember that our days are different than what it is like during paul's time. why? because today too many men left the ministry because of many factors that bring them out of the ministry, so where are men? women had to step in the role of leadership to help maintain the ministry.

if you don't like that and you judge me to be wrong, then be careful...remember Jesus said if you are judging others, stop and think and take out the 4x4 out of your eye before going to the person who only had a speck in his eye. i am not judging you nor am saying you are wrong. i won't do that at all, and i have respect for teachers who teach God's word. but please do not tell me that i am being disobedient to God.

okay?

thank you.

[m273p15c]

You seem to be using a faulty standard to justify a practice that is inconsistent with Scripture - the apparent reward and growth resulting from the behavior under judgment. As a side note, I am not judging you. My only interest is in understanding and spreading God's Word. We judge ourselves by how we react to God's Word. However, per your encouragement, I will redouble my efforts in examining myself. Thank you.

Now back to the use of apparent blessing as a standard of justification - If you and I adopt such a standard, can we consistently live by it? In other words, if action-X results in apparent growth, blessing, and progress, are we to assume that God approves of such behavior? It may seem valid at first thought. After all, why would God allow something to prosper for a time, if He disapproved? Well, I will not try to answer why God may or may not do something - that is His business. My only concern is determining if such a standard is valid. Let us try the test of consistency:

Agreeable Examples:

1. Abraham - Abraham was faithful and blessed with many riches. His sons and family was likewise blessed for a long time.
2. Haman - Haman tried to destroy the Jews during Queen Esther's day, and he was hanged on his own gallows.

Contrary examples:

1. Job - Although Job prospered for a time, he suffered greatly for a time. Job's friends argued that his pitiful circumstances were proof of God's disapproval. Were they right? (Job 1:1 - 2:13)
2. Moses - God commanded Moses to speak to a rock to cause it to miraculously produce water. Moses struck the rock, disobeying God, and he took the glory for himself. Yet, water came out of the rock! It appeared that Moses was approved by God, because his actions were rewarded immediately. However, God was greatly displeased with Moses. This single event forfeited Moses' right to enter the promise land. Did the immediate prosperity of Moses' action necessarily indicate God's approval? Although it was seeming rewarded in the short term, did it change the long term consequence for disobeying God? (Numbers 1:1-13)
3. Noah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. - Many great prophets labored for their whole lives and never converted but a handful of souls. Did the lack of reward indicate God's disapproval upon these profound efforts?
4. Mormonism - Among those who wear the name of "Christian", it is reported that Mormons are the fastest growing segment. They use this as proof that they are the true church. Using your standard, would you not be forced to agree?
5. Islam - According to statistics, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. According to your reasoning, would that not necessitate that Allah is the true God?

Common sense and Scriptures indicate that we cannot judge God's approval by the short term outcome. In fact, the wise man said that we cannot even determine God's love or wrath towards a man, based on the events of his life (Ecclesiastes 8:16-9:2). The ultimate consequences of many actions are not revealed until much later - possibly many generations after the offenders have been buried. The consequences of some actions are not revealed until that last day. That is why we walk by faith. We trust that God knows best, even though it may not seem best to us.

Also, you are mistaken about the leadership of men. There are many churches with strong male leadership, leading just as God dictates. "There yet remains 7,000 knees" ... (I Kings 19:18). BTW, If this work is being blessed by God, why are not strong men being produced? Why is it producing only weak men, given to sexual immorality?

Finally do not confuse influence with leadership. Many women in New Testament times had strong influence, but they did not have authoritative leadership. However, there is a vast difference between Ruth, Lois, Eunice, Esther, etc. and women serving as elders and preachers. Just because women are forbidden to teach over men and serve as pastors, it does not mean that they do not have an essential role. Please look at the article, "Leadership of Women in the Church?" for a more thorough discussion and defense.

Two wrongs never make a right.

[email]

i find it fascinating about our differences in our views, however, i will not say you are wrong and i am right, or you are right and i am wrong. i do not judge ourselves this way, but i leave it up to God to judge us.

but it is interesting to read several instances in roles of leadership, and yes, there will be times when we do not see any success stories, nor we see any failures. Noah preached for 120 years but no one was saved. Is it God's fault? or Noah's? the point is no one! the story is all about cleansing and starting over. God wanted to get rid of the sons of God (angels who took human women as wives) so it means He has to wipe it all out and leave Noah since he has pure lineage. interesting!

mormonism indeed is a growing religion and so is muslim. But of course, false teachings always seem to be more successful than the true God. remember there are two roads...one is narrow and few find it, and one is broad and many are running down thinking it is heaven at last, but to their horror, it is hell!

then what? are we wrong? are we missing the point? no, we are just God's servants, and if women are in leadership roles, are they bad? Are they going to be punished? No, we just don't know.

i have watched my pastor preached for many years, and i have always checked the word of God to see if her preaching meets the criteria for truth. And so far, it has.

praise God!

[m273p15c]

Please reread your original answers to the correspondence course. It seems to me that you are doing the very things that you once condemned. You are following and supporting traditions that are contrary to Scripture. How will this lead to unity (I Corinthians 1:10-13)?

Judgment is not a thing to be feared, but welcomed - although it is always unpleasant. If you saw me drinking deadly poison in ignorance, but you did not warn me, would you be my friend or enemy?

"Open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful." (Proverbs 27:5-6)

Your best interest is my only concern. To teach the truth is my responsibility. The teacher's job is not to pass judgment of salvation or condemnation, but it is his job to judge actions by comparing them according to the standard, and provide warning where appropriate (Ezekiel 3:17-21). Why do people distaste judgment if they have done nothing wrong (John 3:19-21)?

Have you maintained your integrity in defending the practice of female elders and preachers? Have you upheld truth, loved it, and lived by it consistently (II Thessalonians 2:9-12)? It does no good to claim to follow Jesus, if we do not obey Him (Matthew 7:21-23). Even if we do many good works in His name, if they are not performed according to His command, then they are considered "lawlessness" and sin (Luke 13:24-30). The warning is clear. Please read these verses and consider.

There is nothing more I can say, but encourage to look down the road and ask yourself if you would feel comfortable justifying your beliefs and actions before God? Your previous words are written in your book, and they cannot be erased. In that last day, will they justify your claim to follow Christ, or will they illuminate inconsistency where God's will crossed your own? You do not have to answer me, and I do not want you to do so. I only want you to be prepared and think about it now. For now, you only owe yourself an answer, but at some point, God will expect an answer too (II Corinthians 5:10; I Corinthians 4:3-5).

It gives me the deepest grief to write these words, but I cannot avoid this conclusion or this final responsibility. There is nothing more I can say. If the Scriptures, given by the Holy Spirit, will not persuade you, what is left to be said? I can add nothing.

I do not want to write these words, but I would ultimately want to hear them, if the roles were reversed. Please do not dismiss these words immediately (Matthew 13:3-4, 18-19). Let them linger and prick your conscience. Seek to understand.

Please do not think me arrogant. I am just desperate for your sake, and I am laying my heart on the table.

love,

m273p15c