consistency regarding your thinking on instrumental worship?

[email]

I have recently read the following material from your web site in the section titled "How to determine right from wrong when studying the Bible". It gives the example of trying to determine whether it is right or wrong to use musical instrumentation in worship today.

Though I found your line of thinking fairly sound, it doesn't really appear to be consistent, especially in light of other things that are said on your web site in regards to the thinking used to refute Calvinism.

On the one hand, you say that we should exclude musical instrumentation from New Testament Worship, because the referenced scripture does not mention it specifically.

"speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord." Ephesians 5:19

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Colossians 3:16

Then, in your peace on "Responses to Calvinism" you say that we should not read anything into scripture that isn't there.

As in interpreting all passages it is crucial that we do not read into the passage the meaning that we desire it to intend. This is best seen by observing what the passage does not say. Any ambiguity cannot be forced to support our conclusion, but rather it can only mean what is consistent with all of Scripture.

Caught YOU!!!!! You seem to speak out of both sides of you mouth at the same time!

I believe you are correct, we should not add anything to scripture that is not there. And that seems to be just what you are doing by adding the exclusion of musical instrumentation to the Ephesian 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 passages.

Perhaps I have missed something here, please let me know if I have missed the obvious. I am no scholar or theologian. I found your web site simply because, as a Christian, I am interested in deepening my understanding of scripture and the foundations of my faith. I am protestant, Arminian flavor.

[m273p15c]

Thanks for the good question. Please allow me to make a quick answer. You can poke at it, and I'll be glad to think on your response some more.

Here's the difference that I see between these two cases:

1) Meaning of "hearing and learning" - Could have multiple meanings. Passage is somewhat ambigous. We must look at the rest of Scripture, so that we choose an interpretation for this somewhat ambiguous passage that is consistent and harmonious with all of Scripture. See the rest of the original article for what I think this passage means, based on the rest of Scripture. Calvin frequently took ambiguous passages, and claimed they necessarily justified his doctrine, when they could have legitimately been interpreted other ways. Most of of his so-called proof-texts only proved what one is prejudiced to believe.

2) Silence on Instrumental Music - Different problem. No ambiguity. Positive is asserted ("singing", "speaking"). Scripture is silent only on negative - not the whole matter. This is a different question. It is the difference between partial silence and absolute silence. For example, Jesus commanded to "Go, preach the gospel". He did not say what means of transportation to use. The Scripture is absolutely silent on the matter. However, for instrumental music, we do have a positive command to sing, but no negative command not to use instrumental music. The Scriptures are only partially silent.

To answer this question on instrumental music and whether we can presume to act in the absence of a negative, you should look through the Bible and see how God treated people who presumed and acted upon silence. I think you'll see that He did not treat them favorably. The one article on examples and the other article titled "Do All Things According to The Pattern" should provide more info on this one point. See especially the example of Uzzah, Israelites trying to enter Canaan after sin (Numbers 14), King Saul, etc. Many passages warn against adding to Scripture. Also, the writer of Hebrews used the silence of the Old Law prohibiting priests coming from Judah as proof that Jesus's establishment as a High Priest necessarily invalidated the Old Law, since it positively commanded priests come from Levi (Hebrews 7:11-22).

Please examine these articles a little more, and let me know if I missed anything. Much more there...

I believe my beliefs and words are consistent. However, I may have overlooked something. Please let me know what you think.

Thanks for keeping me honest.

May God bless us with open eyes, open hearts, and an ever deepening love of the truth.

[email]

Thanks for getting back with me. I spent some time reviewing your responses. I understand your remarks in response #1) concerning ambiguous passages and Calvin's use of them.

I also read the material that you suggested in response #2 regarding the use of musical instruments and your attempt to connect that thinking with various old testament examples.

I must say, you have certainly jumped through a lot of hoops, but in the end we seem to be right back where we started. Let me take a moment to explain.

1) Lets tackle a couple of the old testament examples that you are attempting to equate to your conclusion about the absence of the mention of musical instruments in the Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 passages.

In the example of Saul, God had given Saul clear instructions, He said "do this"......Saul instead did this, as you have stated in your example........God instructed Saul to "utterly destroy" the nation of Amalek. But, Saul saved the king of Amalek, and he saved animals for sacrifices to the Lord.

Saul disobeyed clear instruction from the Lord.

In the example of UZZAH, God gave clear instructions for how the ark was to be handled, on poles.....David and his men did it another way and as stated in your example....... He did break God's command to not touch the ark (Numbers 4:5-6, 15),

UZZAH disobeyed clear instruction from the Lord.

Now lets look at the instructions that Paul gives in regards to the Ephesians and Colossian passages again:

"speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord." Ephesians 5:19

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." Colossians 3:16

To disobey these passages one would have to Not speak to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs....one would have to Not sing and make melody in your heart to the Lord.......One would have to Not let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom.....and Not teach and admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs......and Not sing with grace in your hearts to the Lord

That would be the way to disobey what Paul is saying in these passages, not playing musical instruments that are not addressed at all.

Lets look at this again from another angle:

Lets look at the passage that you quote on Jesus saying "Go and preach the Gospel.......As you have noticed, He does not mention the MODE of going, nor does He mention the MODE of preaching.

Do we walk, with or without shoes........do we ride a camel or a horse......do we run or crawl

And how do we preach, Do we stand on the hillsides, or by the roadside, do we speak softly or passionately.......are we mono-toned or multi-toned....

Now lets move this thinking into the 21st century.

How do we preach, what instrument do we do use to accomplish this task of preaching........do we use a podium or not.....how about a microphone and a sound system......how about preaching over the television....how about recording to VHS or DVD......how about by letter or a book........paper and a pencil or pen......how about a computer and the internet, maybe a web site........

None of these instruments are mentioned in the passage "Go and preach the Gospel"........and yet I think we could agree that they are all viable in preaching the gospel

Likewise......in the Ephesians and Colossian passages, do we sing accapella, or three part harmony......how about four part harmony.......perhaps only in soprano.....or maybe barbershop quartet is the way to go.......and what instruments do we use to accomplish this task of singing...... television, CD's, vhs, musical ones, etc

I think you have made the same mistake that others make, such as Calvin......and what we have here is a new ISM........lets call it M273P15CISM....cleaver huh......

A m273p15cist would make sure that his followers do not play any musical instruments in a worship service, and he would base this on m273p15c's interpretation of the Ephesians and Colossian passages.....in clear violation of m273p15c's own principal of not adding or taking away from scripture, as m273p15c has clearly added to the Ephesians and Colossian passages to include a NOT TO USE MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS clause to the passages in question......ouch.

I think you need to seriously rethink your position on this one.....unless of course, I have just seriously missed out how you have arrived at your current position.

You do have me wondering why you have an apparent aversion to the use of musical instruments in worship.

Thanks, and let me know how it goes,

Sincerely.

(It just occured to me, do you think these passages in Ephesians and Colossians from Paul are in the form of instruction, suggestion, exhortation, or command.....and do you think that it carries the same weight as a command from the Lord ?)

[m273p15c]

I'd like to break my response to your note into 5 separate parts, just to simplify the discussion:

1. Consistency - It seems to me that you are drawing a distinction where there is essentially none. I believe that I am applying the same principle in all of these cases. To illustrate this, please allow me to rewrite part of your argument, and I would ask you to prove why I cannot justly and logically do this, using your logic:
   

   In the example of Ephesians and Colossians, God had given New Testament Christians clear instructions through Paul, He said "do this"...... We ignore his statement and instead did this, as you have stated in your example........God instructed us through Paul to "sing" and "speak to each other in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. But, instead we sit silently and listen to guitar, piano, or some trained choir, or soloist sing.
   
   We disobeyed clear instruction from the Lord, even if it is mixing strange types of music, with the kind of music He commanded.

   Why can I not swap the two points you made? If I can swap these points, then does that not make them synonymous, indicating the consistency of applying the same principle in both cases?
   
   I believe the primary difference in our understanding is highlighted in this statement of yours:
   

   "... not playing musical instruments that are not addressed at all."

   I believe they are addressed. Please see the next point for explanation.
2. Generic versus Specific Authority - Every instruction has some element of both generic and specific instruction. That is, contained in every command there are some things we are specifically instructed to either avoid or embrace. However, there always some elements that are left generic, meaning God did not specify how to accomplish certain things. We have been using two examples of these principles, which I would like to classify with these new labels:
   
   Regarding the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16):
   • Specific: location - "go, all the world"; audience - "all the world"; subject - "the gospel"; conversion point - "baptizing them", etc.
   • Generic: location - synagogues, houses, or street-corners, etc.; method - parable, script reading; transportation - riding camel, walking, sailing, etc.
   When Jesus said, "the gospel", that eliminated any other message. Our topic is not politics, entertainment, or current events. The topic is to be the good news of Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, and God's plan of faith that was built upon this. However, He didn't have to say not to do all these other things, because we understand the truth by His single, positive, specific statement, which eliminated these other alternatives.
   
   Regarding worship in music:
   • Specific: subject - spiritual ("psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs"); type of music - "singing, speaking in songs" vs. instrumental
   • Generic: number of parts - unison, 2, 3, 4, etc.; posture - standing, sitting, reclining, etc.; means of coordination - song leader, song books, memory
   When God said to "sing", "speaking to one another", "making melody in your hearts", He did address instrumental music. When He told us specifically what kind of music to make, He eliminated all other forms of music, including instrumental - just like Jesus' command to preach the gospel eliminated us coming up with our own topics of choice, even if we mixed a little gospel with it.
   
   Admittedly, King Saul and Uzzah are not the best examples of this particular principle, since they did the exact opposite of what God commanded - although I believe they are good examples of how God treats people who alter or disobey His Word, even with good motives. Nadab and Abihu are probably better examples of this principle. God gave a command for a certain kind of fire to be offered, presumably referencing the composition of the incense and fuel (Exodus 30:9, 34-38); however, Nadab and Abihu offered some other kind of fire, a "strange fire". They did offer fire. They didn't ignore the command. Yet, God specified one way, and they did it another way. They did not do the opposite, they just did the same thing, a little differently. How did God respond to them (Leviticus 10:1-3)? Do you think it would have mattered if they used the strange fire, as long as they included some of the correct fire? God's reason for the swift judgment is still just as binding today (Leviticus 10:3; I Peter 1:13-17).
   
   God's command throughout both the Old and New Testament is not to "add to" or "take away from" His Word ("Do All Things According to the Pattern"). When He commands us to do something one way, and we do it another way, are we not "adding to" and "taking away from" His will for us?
   
   You believe that He does not mention instrumental music. However, I believe He does not have to do so. Does God have to condemn every possible negative? If He says to "sing", does He have to say, "do not use guitar", "do not use piano", "do not use any instrument", "do not clap", "do not listen to CD's over the loudspeaker"? Why is the positive command not enough? He gave us a command. We disobey it, even if we just do it a little differently. Can you imagine how big the Bible would be if He mentioned every single possible thing that we were to avoid?
3. The Inspiration of the Scriptures - You said:
   

   (It just occurred to me, do you think these passages in Ephesians and Colossians from Paul are in the form of instruction, suggestion, exhortation, or command.....and do you think that it carries the same weight as a command from the Lord ?)

   Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to teach the apostles "all truth" (John 14:26; John 16:7-15). He promised that He would enable them to perform miracles to prove that they had the Holy Spirit (Mark 16:17-20; Hebrews 2:1-4). The apostles claimed to have "all truth", even the very mind of Christ (I Corinthians 2:10-16; II Peter 1:2-3; James 1:23-25). Paul said that when we read his writings, we can have his understanding (). Moreover, he said that the Scriptures contain all that we need for every good work (II Timothy 3:16-17). Only one time in Scripture did an apostle write something without the direct inspiration of Scripture. He clearly highlighted this fact by stating that it was not a command from the Lord, but it was simply a command, or advice from the apostle (II Corinthians 7:1-2, 6-9, 25-26, 39-40). If Paul made such a big deal about these statements not originating from the Lord, then what does that indicate about all the other statements? Why would Paul make such a poignant point, if his readers were used to understanding that his words contained no transferred authority from the Lord?
   
   To read the Scriptures is to hear the will of God. Whether the words are from Jesus' own mouth, or from His mouth of the apostles and prophets, there is no difference. It is all from God (John 16:13-16; II Peter 1:19-21; Ephesians 3:1-5; I Corinthians 2:6-16).
4. Prejudicial Comments - Regarding these statements:
   

   Caught YOU!!!!! You seem to speak out of both sides of you mouth at the same time.
   ...
   You do have me wondering why you have an apparent aversion to the use of musical instruments in worship.
   ...

   I think you have made the same mistake that others make, such as Calvin......and what we have here is a new ISM........lets call it M273P15CISM....cleaver huh......
   
   A m273p15cist would make sure that his followers do not play any musical instruments in a worship service, and he would base this on m273p15c's interpretation of the Ephesians and Colossian passages.....in clear violation of m273p15c's own principal of not adding or taking away from scripture, as m273p15c has clearly added to the Ephesians and Colossian passages to include a NOT TO USE MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS clause to the passages in question......ouch.
   ...
   
   You do have me wondering why you have an apparent aversion to the use of musical instruments in worship.

   These statements would be considered prejudicial, because they evoke a biased decision, regardless of their own merit. In other words, these statements prove nothing, but they do make an argument look bad, or wrong, even if it is really right. Additionally, they will typically generate strife, anger, and blind retaliation, because they stimulate one's ego. In other words, they are designed to "push peoples' buttons".
   
   I care nothing for your opinion of me (I Corinthians 4:1-5), although I do strive to evaluate all criticisms, regardless of the spirit in which they were given. In that regard, these statements have been profitable to me in giving me pause to reflect. However, my greater concern is for the heart that uses such statements as opposed to reasoning humbly with his brother. Whether or not you are right, or I am right, such statements make it difficult for us to determine the truth, because they excite our prideful, carnal, old man. This would be considered placing a "stumbling block before a brother" (I Corinthians 8, 10; Romans 14). My question is why would you do that to me? Do you care that much for winning the argument? Even if it requires making me sin, just so you can win? That speaks poorly of your love for me and your love for the truth. I say this in all kindness and love, as my concern is only for you. I take no pleasure or satisfaction in saying this.
   
   I doubt you have thought the consequences of your statements through to this ultimate conclusion; otherwise, I do not think you would have said them. But, I would encourage you to think it through and reconsider use of similar statements in the future. I don't mean to be harsh, but I hope you will spend some time, separately thinking about this, although it has no immediate bearing on our primary topic at hand.
   
   5) Other arguments - Other arguments may be given against instrumental music, although I consider them to be corroborative, as opposed to arguments that necessarily prove its impropriety.
   • acapella - What does acapella mean to you? No instruments, right? Literally, it means "in the manner of the church". The Catholic did not use instruments until well after the first millennium! Most protestant churches did not use instrumental music until almost 200 years ago. Many great books are available from Presbyterian, Baptist, and Methodist preachers in the 1800's, condemning the tidal wave of people beginning to use instrumental music. History shows that instrumental music is a relatively modern invention. That is fact. This proves nothing, but it does make one wonder, why none of the New Testament saints used instrumental music, if they were so accustomed to it in Old Testament worship, to which most early disciples were accustomed? It is a recent invention, but why, if it is harmless and so good?
   • silence - Can you find any passage that discusses the Old Testament saints using instrumental music? Sure! There are lots passages, from which we could choose. From the Psalms to I Chronicles, we see examples of God legislating the use of instrumental music. It is easy to find evidence for it in the Old Testament. However, if it is so easy in the Old Testament, then why can we not find similar evidence in the New Testament? If it is just as much a part of the New as it was a part of the Old, then how do you explain the absolute absence of any reference to New Testament saints worship God with instrumental music? I can find them praying, singing psalms, teaching, preaching, taking the Lord's Supper, but I can't find any reference to instrumental music. How come?

There are other reasons, but these should be sufficient to arouse suspicion. As I said previously, these do not necessarily prove anything, but they certainly pile corroborative evidence on the side of the scales against instrumental music.

May God illuminate the truth before us. May we love truth to recognize it, when He does.

[email]

Thanks for getting back with me once again.

I apologize for sounding as though I don't care about you or your feelings. I do tend to write with an edge of humor/sarcasm, and I can be to direct on a particular point. If I have offended, and it appears I have, I am sorry.

As far as my opinion of you goes, I think you must be very bright, well read, and a rather serious thinker on most subjects. And you certainly do write in dizzying logical circles. (That is not intended to be a derogatory comment, just descriptive)

I think we have probably reached an impasse on this topic. I perceive you as stuck on your position, and unable to be dislodged. I am not sure if I can convey your error on the use (or lack of using) of musical instrumentation in worship in any better way than I already have attempted. I think the m273p15cism idea is closest to hitting the nail on the head.

The only other thing I could say is that in both the Ephesians 5 and Colossian 3 chapters, Paul is not talking to us about the structure or order of how a worship service should be conducted. The entire chapters, perhaps the entire letters, are meant to instruct Christians how to live out their Christianity. In that context, you can see it would be foolish to presume that Paul is instructing us to never use musical instruments in living out our Christianity.

I know that God is constantly at work in the lives of his followers. He attempts to work out our blemishes, correct our thinking, and lead us into his ways.

Thanks for sparring with me, and helping me see that I must be more careful about how I write to others, afterall, it is people that matter!

God bless, and keep up the good work!

[m273p15c]

I am disappointed, but I do understand your sentiment to leave the study where it is.

Do not worry about hurting my feelings. That was not my concern. I am concerned as to why you resorted to those kind of tactics, which I felt detracted from the real issue.

Our worship is part of our life. I do not compartmentalize life outside of worship from life in worship, unless there is something in the context to suggest a distinction. I do not believe that Paul said we were never to use instrumental music. However, I believe he did instruct us to use vocal music. My question is, "Why would I want to do anything different?" ("Do not add to... Do not take away ...")

Well, I know you wanted to let this go, but since you took one last shot, I thought it was fair for me to try one last time too.

We do truly walk by faith. May God bring us together in Him.