Who is Jesus Christ? Who is God? Nickel for your thoughts?

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Post by truth » Sat Dec 09, 2006 6:07 pm

1 If the holy spirit is equal with Jehovah God, as claimed by the Athanasian Creed, and if the trinity is the central teaching of the Christian religion, as claimed by The Catholic Encyclopedia, should we not expect these things to be plainly stated in so many words in the Bible? And should this not especially be the case in view of the fact that it is stated that the trinity teaching is "of all revealed truths" "the most impenetrable to reason," and yet salvation depends upon its acceptance? The fact that the Word of God does not explicitly mention, explain or teach a trinity is in itself strong proof that the trinity teaching is false. And this is also borne out by what the Bible teaches regarding the holy spirit.

2 Yes, how could the holy spirit be equal with Jehovah the Father when it is given such a secondary position in the Scriptures? Daniel, Stephen and John in visions saw representations of the Father and the Son, but never one of the holy spirit. Why not, if the holy spirit is equal to the Father and the Son in glory, power, etc.? The creed may state that unless we believe that the holy spirit is equal to God we shall perish, but Jesus, in giving us the rule for life, does not even mention the holy spirit: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."-John 17:3, NW.

3 Far from teaching equality with Jehovah, the Scriptures show that the holy spirit is not even a person. Thus John the Baptist stated that Jesus would baptize "with holy spirit and with fire," even as he was baptizing with water. To baptize means to immerse, to dip, to submerge. A person can baptize others with water, dipping them into it, as John did, and a person can baptize others with fire by immersing them in flames or causing their destruction; but how can one person baptize others with another person? Since neither water nor fire is personal, is it not reasonable to conclude that the holy spirit is also not a person? Besides, Peter stated that God poured out 'some of his spirit' upon all kinds of flesh. Can we imagine some of a person being poured out on thousands of other persons, as was the case at Pentecost after Peter had preached to the Jews?-Matt. 3:11; Acts 2:17, 38, 41, NW.

4 That the holy spirit is without personality is also indicated by the fact that it has no distinctive name. God, the Creator, has many distinctive appellations. His name is Jehovah, and he only is "The God," or "The [true] God," he only is the "Most High" and the "Almighty." He is thus distinctly distinguished from other gods or mighty ones. Likewise with his Son, Jesus Christ. There is only one by that name, only one "only-begotten Son," only one "First-born," only one Logos or "Word."

5 But not so with the holy spirit. Jehovah, Christ and the faithful angels are all holy spirits. Is the holy spirit "The holy spirit"? If so, in what way does he excel Jehovah and Christ either as respects being a spirit or being holy? And more than a hundred times the holy spirit is referred to as "the spirit of Jehovah," "God's spirit," "my spirit" and "spirit of Jesus Christ." All such possessive uses of the holy spirit further argue that it is an instrumentality rather than a separate and distinct person.-Judg. 3:10; Matt. 3:16; Acts 2:18; Phil. 1:19, NW.

6 And note still another point, that of location. The Bible tells us that God dwells in heaven, that he holds court there. Also that Jesus in his prehuman existence was rejoicing in his Father's presence, that he came to earth to perform special missions, especially at the time he came as a man, and that he has now returned to heaven. Where was or where is the holy spirit now if it is a person? Did "he" come down upon Jesus at Jordan and then remain, or return and then come again at Pentecost? Is "he" now in heaven with God and Christ, or is "he" scattered throughout the earth wherever Christ's followers are to be found?

7 The fact is that the truth about the holy spirit has been beclouded by the prejudices of Bible translators. Their use of capital letters cannot be used to prove the holy spirit is a person. Why not? Because at the time the Scriptures were written proper and common nouns were not thus distinguished from each other. The same is true regarding their adding the definite article the before holy spirit in some hundred instances where the Bible writers had not done so. To omit the definite article seemed disrespectful to such Bible translators but not to the Bible writers. Thus Paul wrote that God's kingdom meant "peace and joy with holy spirit," not "with the holy spirit." And Peter wrote that God's servants spoke, being "borne along by holy spirit," not "by the holy spirit."-Rom. 14:17; 2 Pet. 1:21, NW.

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Post by JSM17 » Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:23 pm

You make some interesting points, worth looking into. I agree that most people coming into the realm of Christianity find themselves latching on to things because that is what their counterpart also teach and believe, but we need to be accountable to the things in which we believe and the things we teach to others.

I have read through your your post several times and I see what you are saying and I have taken my understandings and press them against scriptures to see if they stick.

The study of the Holy Spirit is certainly an interesting and complex topic, as I venture into this with you I am not holding to have a great understanding of all things pertaining to God and His Spirit, but I would like to run by you the ideas of why I believe in a God head, which I find to be a better term than trinity, at least we have the word Godhead in the bible we do not of the word "trinity". I do believe that the concepts of the Godhead "trinity" are implied explicitly and implicitly.

Before I give scripture for my understanding I do not wish to be chastized for my differences with you, I am only searching for answers like everyone else, I to at one time believed things because others did and I did not believe them because I found the truth and understood it.

1. I would like to think that anytime you have in scripture the three persons as I will call them of the Godhead in one location at a time and can understand that they are distinct from one another yet unified at the same time gives way for me to see how this idea of the "trinity" can be manifested in ones mind.

Matt 3:16-17
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, " This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Here we have the three persons, in other parts of scripture the Holy Spirit is always refered to as "HE" which in my mid proves that He is a being with a distinct personality. But at least in this particular passage it seems as though the persons of the Godhead are revealed as being distinct yet unified.

2. Matt 28:19-20
19 " Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Here I see Jesus saying that the Holy Spirit is His (the Holy Spirit's) name, we are baptized into the name of...., so apparently He does have a name, again giving Him some kind of "person" type identity.

3. To keep it short, in danger of causing more confusion to myself and maybe others, I find that Peter in the book of acts identifies the Holy Spirit as God, now maybe I do this ignorantly, but I am a mere man trying to understand God and the bible.

Acts 5:2-5
3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? 4 "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

Notice how Peter tells Ananias that he has lied to the Holy Spirit, which doesn't directly tell me He is God, but certainly tells me that Peter through inspiration points to Him as being a personality (Identifying) that could be lied to, then goes on to say that he had lied to God which in my mind either says that the Holy Spirit was lied to and God was lied to or that the Holy Spirit is God.

Again it is a hard thing to understand and requires much research and study, when I read passages like Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

I can't help but wonder if there is one Spirit, yet there is one Lord and Father, and one God, then does this mean that Jesus Himself was also not God, I hope not( at least the scriptures teach that He is even though the bible says that there is one true God), but if we see this as a relationship among each of them that makes up this Godhead it is easier conceived in our minds regarding the possibilities.

Here is some thought by Vines, which do not nessecitate truth per say but shows some ideas based on a word that is translated by some as Godhead in Colossians.


theiotes NT:2305, difinity, the RV rendering in Rom 1:20 (KJV, "Godhead"), is derived from theios (see DIVINE, A), and is to be distinguished from theotes, in Col 2:9, "Godhead." In Rom 1:20 the apostle "is declaring how much of God may be known from the revelation of Himself which He has made in nature, from those vestiges of Himself which men may everywhere trace in the world around them. Yet it is not the personal God whom any man may learn to know by these aids; He can be known only by the revelation of Himself in His Son;... But in the second passage Col 2:9, Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of Divine glory which gilded Him, lighting up His Person for a season and with a splendor not His own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the apostle uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son" (Trench, Syn. Sec. ii). Theotes indicates the "divine" essence of Godhood, the personality of God; theiotes, the attributes of God, His "divine" nature and properties. See GODHEAD.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Again I am not looking to get beat down about this post I am merly getting the conversation going.

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Post by truth » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:57 am

your right about one thing ,the word "Godhead" is in the bible , but its not in every translation. in fact there are many
translation's the word godhead is not used.
Why ?
At Colossians 2:9 the word in the Greek that the New World Translation renders "divine quality" is theótes, and this is the only use of the word in the Christian Greek Scriptures. The same is true of a similar Greek word, theiótes, which appears only at Romans 1:20, and which the New World Translation there renders "Godship," as follows: "For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world's creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable."

The way these two words have been rendered in the New World Translation has given rise to the charge that the New World Bible Translation Committee let their religious beliefs influence them. That charge is true, but they did not do so wrongly, or unduly. The meaning that is to be given to these two Greek words depends upon what the entire Bible has to say about Jehovah God and Jesus Christ.

How so? In that there is basis for translating these words either as "Deity," "Divinity" or "Godhead" and so attributing personality to them, or as "Divine Nature," "divine quality," "Godship," and having them merely denote qualities. Thus those who believe in the trinity will attach personality to these words, whereas those who do not will render them as qualities in view of the way God and Christ are described in the Scriptures and so as to harmonize the words with the rest of God's Word. This emphasizes the fact that one simply cannot properly and accurately translate the Bible unless one clearly understands its teachings.

That the New World Bible Translation Committee were perfectly right in rendering these words the way they did is apparent from what Greek authorities have to say about them. Thus Parkhurst's A Greek and English Lexicon (1845) defines theiótes as "Godhead" (page 261) and theótes as "Deity, godhead, divine nature" (page 264). Note the definition "divine nature" as well as "Godhead."

Liddell and Scott's A Greek-English Lexicon, in its new ninth edition, completed in 1940 and reprinted in 1948, Volume I, defines the two terms in the light of ancient usages apart from the Scriptures. Theiótes it defines as "divine nature, divinity" (page 788). Theótes it defines in exactly the same way, as "divinity, divine nature," and then cites as an example Colossians 2:9. In this connection it shows that the similar Greek expression, dia theóteta, means "for religious reasons" (page 792).

Thus the New World Translation is fully justified in rendering Colossians 2:9 to show that Christ has in him all the fullness, not of God himself, the Deity, the Godhead, but of the divine quality dwelling bodily, and this in behalf of the spiritual body of Christ, so that this body of Christ's followers is possessed of a fullness by means of him: "It is in [Christ] that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. And so you [Christians] are possessed of a fullness by means of him, who is the head of all government and authority."-Col. 2:9, 10.

It is also of interest to note that both Weymouth and An American Translation render the passage, "the fullness of God's nature."

To get an objective view of the matter, in exploring questions such as these it is best to use the nonsectarian and nonreligious Hebrew-English and Greek-English dictionaries, instead of those that have been produced by some religious denomination.

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