thetruth1 wrote:I listened to some of the sermon and read the power point looking forward for something debatable but then i found out that the eye witness accounts were in the bible! So the evidence of eye witness accounts that support claims made in the bible are written in the very thing they are trying to prove, and written by the very people who wish to prove it.
What did you expect? In a court case, people who witness a event usually believe it. The Bible, especially the New Testament, proposes to be an eye-witness account. The sermon addresses the credibility of the witness, which is what you called into question. Do you want a witness for the witness? How about a witness for him? Will he need a witness for him too? How many witnesses are required? ... I would suggest you listen to to the lecture fairly, instead of looking for a reason to dismiss it and doing so rashly.
thetruth1 wrote:The people who wrote the bible knew that there would be no evidence to support their statements so they added some lines that obviously were created not just to justify things that never happened, but also to directly oppose the arguments made by people that haven't been coerced to believing these false stories.e
Even a brief overview of Christian apologetics will produce quotes from non-believers that verify Jesus existed, was crucified by Pilate, and that His followers claim He was resurrected. If you doubt the historicity of those facts, then you are raising a standard that would doubt the historicity of everything that you have not personally experienced. ... Again, what basis would you suggest for verifying the veracity of any historical claim? I believe any fair, consistent standard that you suggest to validate accepted events (George Washington, the American Revolution, etc.) will also embrace the resurrection. If you would like to discuss these, let's start another thread, since this thread is about whether God helps the average person, not whether God exists or the Bible is true.
thetruth1 wrote:They say that the people who wrote these eye witness accounts had nothing to gain. That is an outright lie. They sought to gain control of stupid peasants and take their money.
This is an assertion. History shows that each of the apostles were impoverished and died horrible deaths (sawed in two, crucified upside down, banished to desolate islands, etc.). They did not become rich or powerful, and they maintained their story to death. What scam artist would do that? If you disagree, then I suggest you start another thread.
thetruth1 wrote:Today churches rake in billions of dollars and the Vatican is one of the most wealth hording places on earth.
Admittedly, many historians have associated "Christianity" with "Catholicism"; however, many Christians (especially "Protestants") would denounce Catholicism. ... The local church where I worship, although being quite large, maintains a balance less than the personal savings of many people. Over 85% of the funds leave each month in supporting preachers or performing benevolence. The rest pays light bill, water bill, etc. ... Again, just because some people abuse or pervert a noble cause, you should not assume that everybody does so, neither should you assume the original cause is ignoble.
thetruth1 wrote:But Christianity is nothing special or different from countless other religiouns that came before it and are around today. Like Buddhism, Hindu, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, ect, ect, they contain almost the same story or at least some key features. Born of a virgin, crucified on a cross, dead for three days, then resurrected. Its just a big fairy tale that has been around for thousands of years.
Jesus wasn't real, he's just a metaphor for the SUN. The bringer of the age of the Pisces, a zodiac of the two fish. When they said he gave millions of people bread and TWO FISH, he didn't preform a miracle he just ushered in the age of the Pisces. Most people that have the Jesus fish on their car don't even know why. Christianity is completely astrological, like all the religions previous to it.
This is pure assertion! This has no more power than me saying, "You're wrong!" Are you trying to debate or stir up a shouting match? If you don't want me resting my arguments on mere assertion, please don't offer any yourself.
thetruth1 wrote:I never said all people lied, it is just kind of annoying when people swear on the bible and every one watching thinks that now hes more likely to tell the truth. Thats a lie.
I never said you did. You should read and write more carefully:
m273p15c wrote:thetruth1 wrote:If you look around you will see that people lie, a lot. People will always lie if it suits their purposes. whether they swore on the bible or not.
So, what's your point? Because some people lie, all people lie? This proves nothing.
Again, what's your point? Why are you raising this point except to dismiss the witness of the Bible? If that's the case, then your observation is neither novel nor effective, because it proves nothing. Unless you are willing to assert that all people lie, then your observation offers nothing.
thetruth1 wrote:You said scoffing fears people. Maybe at school but this is different. I dont think you feel intimidated if i mock christianity.
Surely, you don't believe it's convincing? So, why do you do it, unless you hope to motivate people through intimidation and fear? An honest man relies on the trutfulness of his words, nothing more.
thetruth1 wrote:Religions have been treated like little children- you have to be nice. I have no reason to be nice to something that has caused so much anguish and torment.
Again, you unfairly lump all religions and all Christians in the same basket? As you asked previously, have you met all the millions of us? It seems you like to dish out what you cannot take.
thetruth1 wrote:Some people wear the label of Christian to do horrible things, but most of the time the people believe that god told them to burn witches or kill people for holy land, or blow up an orphanage, or burn non-believers at the stake. People that do bad things in the name of god are devout believers, which justifies their actions, which some one who doesn't believe could never think that that action could be moral or justified. When did i ever say all christians are evil. You keep twisting what i say.
I guess I assumed you brought up things to make a point. ... What is the point of saying that religion causes people to do bad things? Unless you assume that fact means all religions are wrong, there is no logical value in mentioning that some are bad. It seems you are continually making this logical error, for example:
"All ducks are birds; therefore, all birds are ducks."
Just because some birds are ducks, you cannot assume all are. ... The converse of a true statement is not necessarily true, as demonstrated above.
Likewise, just because some people did horrible things in the name of religion, even a good one, we should not assume that all religions are bad or all followers of certain religion are bad. If that was not your point, then what was it? Were you trying to mislead, confuse, or just ramble? If there was some other reason that was relevant to the topic, I would be glad to know what it was. ... Obviously, I thought you were trying to prove something; otherwise, I would not be pressing you so.
thetruth1 wrote:What i mean is that moral people can only do immoral acts and evil acts if only provided with divine justification. You say Hitler was a confirmed atheist and by all means he might have been, but he was fully supported by the Pope and the catholic church.
Which only confirms my denouncement of them. This holds no value to me.
thetruth1 wrote:Atheists can do immoral acts too but their reasons for their acts are not because of their beliefs while the same can not be said for people who do believe in god.
So, why did Hitler do it? Because of somebody else's beliefs? Your statements are nonsense.
thetruth1 wrote:The evil done because of divine justification greatly out ways the evil done with out.
I disagree. None of the things you mentioned were done because of true Christianity. They were done because of evil people who wore a cloak of Christianity to cover-up or enable their agenda. ... Again, I denounce these things, and I would use the Bible to prove they are wrong. So, mentioning them is of no value to your case, that I can see.
thetruth1 wrote:Hitler was insane, his reasons are irrelevant, he was just a crazy person given too much power.
No, he's very relevant. It shows that a group of people are not necessarily wrong because some of them are wrong. Otherwise, atheism and evolution is wrong, because Hitler was clearly wrong. ... Again, I am using
reduction to the absurd to the show the error of you assuming the converse is true.
thetruth1 wrote:The proof for Jesus is eye witness accounts written in the bible. see any conflict of interests?
I would, if they were the only witness, if they were inconsistent, if they gained something, etc. However, by all accounts, they maintained their story in consistency and faithfulness, while losing everything.
thetruth1 wrote:The empty tomb just shows how he never existed.
Look, let's get straight to the point. You have no interest in really examining evidence. You are just looking for things that bolster your preconceived convictions. Otherwise, you would grapple with the arguments. It seems you just came here to make fun and collect counter-arguments. If your flippant and shallow handling of the above argument has another rational explanation, I would be glad to hear it. Otherwise, I'm done. ... How can you expect someone to respect you or your words, if you demonstrate no respect for them?
thetruth1 wrote:You last remark says god does not care for this universe and will destroy it. And before in another post you said he loves us. make up your mind. If god made us then he made sin, and then he made us pay for the thing he created in us, then hes going to destroy us, and he loves us? I know you will say that he loves those who love him
No, God made us with free will, and He made us good. Between, the Devil, his angels, and us, we made sin.
If I was Calvinist, you might have a point, but I am not, and therefore, you do not.
thetruth1 wrote:but how can you love something that isnt real?
For the purpose of the this thread, didn't you already grant that He exists, given the title of the thread, "does
god help average joes"?
When you get ready to fairly and honestly discuss the evidence instead of bluffing and scoffing, let me know. Otherwise, I think the sermons I listed, in addition to the material we have on this web-site are sufficient:
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... #evidences