Thank you for your great article, I have read many similar but you have allowed for some dialogue. My church in Australia is all but (spiritually) dead. The very thing (music) that was meant to bring revival actually brought death. we had three pastors: When their beloved children grew up they (the children) demanded secular music into the church. But as examples from Eli, David and Samuel they honored their children more than God and now I am faced with the enormous task of dismantling and or trying to rebuild the church.
Anyway sorry to ramble on. My main point was to thank you and give you support
Yours in Jesus Christ
I will think about you in my prayers. If I can be of any help, or if you have any other Bible verses that you would like to discuss, please let me know.
May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,
m273p15c, thank you for your offer to help out with other bible passages. If possible? I would like to ask about the passage of scripture where John the Baptist (from prison) sends out his disciples to ask Jesus if he is the one or should they expect another. I pretty much have my own answer but would greatly value your thoughts.
On a slightly different note one particular individual asked why I was opposed to mechanical instruments of music when David was allowed to use them. My answer was that if he wants to keep any part of the old law then he is required to keep it all, like animal sacrifices, incense burning, dancing etc. (Sorry its late and I’m guessing it’s in Galatians 3:10 or James 2;10)
Anyway, his answer was, “the mosaic law never once mentions the use of instruments so my line of argument fails”. How would you answer something like this?
Again I have my own answer but would love to hear how you would answer this.
Again thank you!
I'm glad to discuss John's request from prison, but I am not sure what question you have in mind. Are you asking why did he doubt? Are you asking why did Jesus answer as He did? Or, something else?
Your answer to your friend sounds good. I had not heard the response (i.e., instrumental music not in Pentateuch). Since you have thought about it, I would be intrigued by your answer too. But, here are my knee-jerk thoughts. (More time, prayer, and study would likely produce a better response.)
The Law of Moses contained several "stubs". These were commands that were to be clarified, elaborated, applicable and fully defined at a later time. Most, if not all, of these are looking forward to the tabernacle's final resting home, but especially the temple. Here are a few examples:
With this in mind, it is important to realize that musical instruments (more than just the blast of trumpets, Leviticus 23:24) was not associated with Israel's worship until the time of David and Solomon, and that occurred at "the command of the Lord". So, although the command for the introduction of musical instruments came well after the delivery of the law, it was closely tied to temple worship, which is also commanded well after the Old Law."But you shall seek the place where the LORD your God chooses, out of all your tribes, to put His name for His dwelling place; and there you shall go." (Deuteronomy 12:5 NKJV) ... There are many others that I can't locate right now, but I'll find them and send them to you.
Then the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said to him: "I have heard your prayer, and have chosen this place for Myself as a house of sacrifice. When I shut up heaven and there is no rain, or command the locusts to devour the land, or send pestilence among My people, if My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to prayer made in this place. For now I have chosen and sanctified this house, that My name may be there forever; and My eyes and My heart will be there perpetually." (II Chronicles 7:12-16 NKJV)
So, temple worship was foreseen and "stubbed out" in the Old Law and therefore died with its authority, as did the Jerusalem temple itself.And he stationed the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with stringed instruments, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for thus was the commandment of the LORD by His prophets. The Levites stood with the instruments of David, and the priests with the trumpets. Then Hezekiah commanded them to offer the burnt offering on the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD also began, with the trumpets and with the instruments of David king of Israel. So all the assembly worshiped, the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded; all this continued until the burnt offering was finished. (II Chronicles 29:25-28 NKJV)
By the rivers of Babylon, There we sat down, yea, we wept When we remembered Zion. We hung our harps Upon the willows in the midst of it. For there those who carried us away captive asked of us a song, And those who plundered us requested mirth, Saying, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!" How shall we sing the LORD'S song In a foreign land? (Psalm 137:1-4 NKJV)
By the same token, if David's and Solomon's direction to include singing and dance as part of temple worship is in effect today, then must we not also liberate Jerusalem immediately and rebuild the temple there? If the authority for one ceased, so did the other, because neither are explicitly authorized in the OT law - only stubbed out.
As a side note, you might find this helpful, if you have not seen it already:
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... ences.html
Also, it is critical to notice that David's and Solomon's addition of musical instruments came by the Lord's command by His prophets. If it required a command in David's time to specify authority for musical instruments, would we not likewise require a command to authorize it for today, especially given that we are already commanded to sing (Colossians 3:16-17; Ephesians 5:18-19)?
What do you think? Please take my response as "brainstorming", and feel free to shoot it full of holes.
Thanks, and May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,
I guess all of the above. It does appear to be a mystery why John would ask such a question considering he was witness to the transfiguration. Perhaps he asked it for his disciples benefit. Perhaps, the prison pain and suffering got to him. Or another option would be he was coerced in to it by his adversaries. Maybe even slight sarcasm so Jesus would come and rescue him. I know Peter doubted, so humanly speaking anything is possible. What do you think?I'm glad to discuss John's request from prison, but I am not sure what question you have in mind. Are you asking why did he doubt? Are you asking why did Jesus answer as He did? Or, something else?
My answer is in the very rough stage. But any way here goes. It seems my friend cannot have it both ways, if music was not part of the mosaic law, as was David becoming a king, numbering the people, moving the ark, building God a house etc. Then obviously music also was not Gods initial plan. So we have the mosaic law without music. However, biblically speaking it appears that David did introduce music, God tolerated it and in some passages supported it. But now the New Covenant does not support it. Similar with Moses allowing divorce, Jesus now condemns it. We live under Christ not Moses or David. Since David lived under the old law then that would have to include all of Psalms. So my point stands. What do you think?I had not heard the response (i.e., instrumental music not in Pentateuch). Since you have thought about it, I would be intrigued by your answer too
Although the passages in Amos (Amos5:23 & Amos 6: 5) are hotly disputed it still does not answer why God, if he was pleased with Davids music, now aligns his music with these (sincere but sincerely wrong) wicked people. God never says to the people in Amos, you play like David but I cant stand your religious feasts In effect he says you are just like David, when it comes to music, they are just like David. The music lovers tell me they played like David yet their heart was not right. I dont accept this explanation. Amos says these were good and sincere people who were eagerly writhing for the day of the Lord. Amos 5:18.
If that were not enough Jeremiah 17:9 tells me the heart is deceitful and wicked and no one can know it. Sorry its just my translation I am rushing and do not have time to look it up. To be honest I dont trust my own heart. When music lovers tell me its the heart bla la bla I tell them the heart cannot be trusted, we can only trust Gods word. Our truth is subjective, Gods word is absolute. Any way we can talk about this until the cows come home. Our premise should always be finding out what pleases the Lord Ephesians 5;10. The music lovers begin with what they like.
That comment above has proven right, since then I have been in vigorous and heated debates with the rockers. Of course they disagree with me, so I gave them other examples like women preachers, who claim they have a natural talent (musicians claim the same thing) like preaching and are now using it for the Lord, yet God in his word condemns women from preaching and teaching men. Then there is the command for men not to have long hair yet all the so called Christian rockers say long hair for a man is fine if he does not look like a women, they tell me this is what Paul must have meant. So here we have clear commands ignored. So even if there was a verse that said thou shall not rock in the pews it would make no difference.Even if there was a verse that said, "thou shall not use rock music in the church" people would still try and weasel out of it, for they begin with a faulty premise. they decide what they like rather than what God likes Eph 5;10. They love rock music more than God, no amount of evidence will change their mind.
This is great, m273p15c. Thank you.The Law of Moses contained several "stubs". These were commands that were to be clarified, elaborated, applicable and fully defined at a later time. Most, if not all, of these are looking forward to the tabernacle's final resting home, but especially the temple. Here are a few examples:
"But you shall seek the place where the LORD your God chooses, out of all your tribes, to put His name for His dwelling place; and there you shall go." (Deuteronomy 12:5 NKJV) ... There are many others that I can't locate right now, but I'll find them and send them to you.
By the rivers of Babylon, There we sat down, yea, we wept When we remembered Zion. We hung our harps Upon the willows in the midst of it. For there those who carried us away captive asked of us a song, And those who plundered us requested mirth, Saying, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!" How shall we sing the LORD'S song In a foreign land? (Psalm 137:1-4 NKJV
Again great passage. I sometimes have to use that one. If the rockers want Psalms then they have to accept the bits where (continuation from Psalm 137)) Psalm 1378-9 Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us--- verse 9 he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.
Its funny we are on the same page here expressed in different ways. So I agree.By the same token, if David's and Solomon's direction to include singing and dance as part of temple worship is in effect today, then must we not also liberate Jerusalem immediately and rebuild the temple there? If the authority for one ceased, so did the other, because neither are explicitly authorized in the OT law - only stubbed out.
Thank you seen that. Real it a while back. Great work.As a side note, you might find this helpful, if you have not seen it already:
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... ences.html
Very interesting. I will keep and treasure your insights for future reference.Also, it is critical to notice that David's and Solomon's addition of musical instruments came by the Lord's command by His prophets. If it required a command in David's time to specify authority for musical instruments, would we not likewise require a command to authorize it for today, especially given that we are already commanded to sing (Colossians 3:16-17; Ephesians 5:18-19)?
Blessings from Australia
About John's request from prison, my understanding is that this request was sent by John the Baptist, not the Apostle John, because John the Baptist was martyred before the transfiguration occurred (Matthew 11:1, 11; 14:1-12; 17:1-2, 9-13). As is not uncommon among saints, I believe that John's faith was wavering a little at this time. Please keep in mind that Jesus' spiritual mission was not fully understood, even by His own apostles, even as late as His ascension, because they were still asking about the restoration of an earthly kingdom of Israel - not a spiritual one (Acts 1:4-8). Given John's earlier time frame, it is reasonable to assume that John also may not have fully understood the true nature of Jesus' spiritual kingdom (John 18:36). John's imminent physical death may have been difficult to understand, if he was also anticipating a physical kingdom. Furthermore, the passage specifically ties the occasion of John's sending the disciples to his hearing "in prison about the works of Christ" (Matthew 11:2). Moreover, Jesus also gently admonishes the imprisoned John to not be "offended because of" Him (Matthew 11:3-6), which also indicates that John was troubled by Jesus' "works" - or maybe the lack of anticipated "works". Regardless, this suggests that John was in some measure of doubt or confusion based on Jesus' works not matching John's expectations.
Jesus' reply is interesting, because it is very patient and merciful. Although He gently corrects in His conclusion, He does not upbraid John's lack of faith. Instead, Jesus begins by simply providing John with what was needed to sustain his faith, which were miracles to prove Jesus was the Messiah sent by God (Matthew 11:3-6). Furthermore, after John's disciples left, Jesus was extremely complimentary toward John contrasting him with a "reed shaken in the wind", which indicates His overall approval. This comment suggests that John's doubts were only temporary - not characteristic of him - and they were easily resolved the encouragement and admonition that Jesus patiently offered.
About using Amos 6:5 as proof-text against instrumental music, I am currently not inclined to use it that way. I cannot maintain that David presumptively added (i.e., without God's positive approval) those instruments, because we are told that David's instruments were commanded by the Lord in a historical footnote (II Chronicles 29:25-27). Although Israel may have been a presumptive people, the context of Amos 6 indicates a distant, callous, unsympathetic, uncaring, unmerciful, unloving people were being condemned for wallowing in lazy, idle luxury, while their brethren suffered in unjust, abject poverty. Please notice all the references to their overly-confident, secured and lavish lifestyle:
The point is their emphasis on lazy, lavish, luxury. One of their characteristics was the invention of musical instruments. Now, the study of music is a luxury, but the invention of additional instruments is a luxurious luxury! David was clearly gifted, whereas these peopled developed instruments in an overflow of idleness. ... It may be that David spent more time than he should on such pursuits (for example, consider David's absence from battle, II Samuel 11:1-2); however, there is enough in the context of Amos 6:1-8 and other passages (II Chronicles 29:25-27) to leave reasonable doubt and disable the passage's usefulness in this discussion, in my opinion. Maybe you see a usefulness that I am overlooking? What do you think?Woe to you who are at ease in Zion, And trust in Mount Samaria, Notable persons in the chief nation, To whom the house of Israel comes! ... Woe to you who put far off the day of doom, Who cause the seat of violence to come near; Who lie on beds of ivory, Stretch out on your couches, Eat lambs from the flock And calves from the midst of the stall; Who sing idly to the sound of stringed instruments, And invent for yourselves musical instruments like David; Who drink wine from bowls, And anoint yourselves with the best ointments, But are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Therefore they shall now go captive as the first of the captives, And those who recline at banquets shall be removed. The Lord GOD has sworn by Himself, The LORD God of hosts says: "I abhor the pride of Jacob, And hate his palaces; Therefore I will deliver up the city And all that is in it." (Amos 6:1-8 NKJV)
Likewise, I am inclined to avoid using Amos 5:23, because the context mentions known, approved acts of worship, such as sacrifices, feasts, and various offerings. Therefore, the passage is not condemning the acts of worship - including instrumental praise (II Chronicles 29:25-27) - in and of themselves. The point is that the people's gross disobedience outside of worship services cannot be overlooked by virtue of their minimal obeisance inside of worship services. It is a excoriating rebuke against hypocrisy. They were trying to serve two masters, as if God would not notice!
Again, maybe these passages have a relevance that I have overlooked. If you think so, please let me know."I hate, I despise your feast days, And I do not savor your sacred assemblies. Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them, Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings. Take away from Me the noise of your songs, For I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments. But let justice run down like water, And righteousness like a mighty stream. Did you offer Me sacrifices and offerings In the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? You also carried Sikkuth your king And Chiun, your idols, The star of your gods, Which you made for yourselves." (Amos 5:21-26 NKJV)
Your usage of Jeremiah 17:9 is appropriate, and your answer is more than sufficient. May I also add these passages for amplification, which make a similar point? Proverbs 14:12; 16:2; 21:2; 26:12; 28:26; I Corinthians 4:3-6. (See I Corinthians 14:37-38 to prevent misunderstanding chapter 4.)
Your test for consistency by comparing the "natural talent" of musicians to female preachers is fair, good, and reasonable.
Keep up the "good fight" (Jude 3; I Timothy 6:12; II Timothy 4:7)! If I can help any more, or if you just want to talk about spiritual things, please let me know.
May God help us to have a sincere love of the truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12; Proverbs 28:14),
God Bless you m273p15c, Thanks for your offer to help out with other spiritual questions I will most definitely trouble you at some stage with further questions.
Yours in Christ Jesus