Your Website is the Antithesis of Truth

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Your Website is the Antithesis of Truth

Post by email » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:00 pm

Inquiry in Reference To: [url=http://www.insearchoftruth.org/]http://www.insearchoftruth.org/[/url]
I was very disappointed when I Googled "in search of truth" and your website popped up at the top of the list.

Your so-called Christian "truth" is false. That's clear because you, individually and collectively claim special and direct knowledge of a deity and because your belief relegates all others to be at least false and at most evil, worthy of eternal damnation and hellfire. Your deities are imaginary. For your beliefs you not only condemn me but billions of others who do not believe what you do. Shame on your arrogance and shame on your ignorance.

I've never met anyone, read about or even heard about anyone who has proof of anything supernatural. There is only one universe. There are no gods, ghosts, miracles or spirits anywhere. Supernatural is synonymous for "not in the universe". And, there is no other universe: there's not this one universe and some other where the supernatural exists as natural.

This one universe now has ample ways to measure and test reality. Just because you can't tell your children that their family is dead doesn't mean you are justified in telling them a lie, that they have gone on to some "better" place. When you do, you are lying. If you believe what you tell your children, then you are characterized by some combination of being delusional, ignorant, or a manipulative liar.

Your Jesus (or "Isa"), if he existed, was just a man. He may have been a genius. But, he was none of the miraculous things that were later ascribed to him. Otherwise, he and those that wrote the Christian holy books would have had something written in those books that would have proven to those of us here in the future that they had some "special" knowledge. But, they didn't. They didn't have any. They were just ordinary bronze-aged people.

Oh, I know, have known, have heard of and read about many, many who claim divine or special knowledge and who promise they have witnessed the supernatural. But, there is no evidence at all for what they believe. They are ignorant liars, delusional liars or ignorant and delusional liars.

So, where does that leave my quest for truth? Well, that's my business. For you, I think you could live out your whole lives in lying and telling tales without giving real truth a chance. It's been done since the first shaman witch doctor spilled his bones out and scared poor fools like you into "believing".

Please, quit gumming up the Internet with your lies.
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Your Website is the Antithesis of Truth

Post by m273p15c » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:14 pm

Thanks for your feedback. It is the desire of this web-site's authors and maintainers to answer each email logically, fairly, and with integrity. Therefore, please consider the following analysis of your more salient statements:
Your so-called Christian "truth" is false. That's clear because you, individually and collectively claim special and direct knowledge of a deity and because your belief relegates all others to be at least false and at most evil, worthy of eternal damnation and hellfire.
Why is Christianity false? You offered two reasons: 1) Christians claim to have "special and direct knowledge" 2) Christians think they are right and others are wrong.

You did not define "special and direct knowledge", although you used the term many times. However, the true Christian's knowledge is just as easily accessible and demonstrable as are the religions of evolution, naturalism, and atheism. And, second, since you are better than me, you must think you are wrong and I am right? Pot, meet kettle.
I've never met anyone, read about or even heard about anyone who has proof of anything supernatural. There is only one universe. There are no gods, ghosts, miracles or spirits anywhere.
Since the origins of the universe, the life of Jesus, and the integrity of Scripture are a matter of historical record - not demonstrable science, they must be established or rejected by historical evidences and evaluation. The "back of an envelope" sketch for the case for God, Jesus, and the Bible's inspiration looks like this:
  1. Design - Design demands a designer (i.e., every effect has a cause).
  2. Run-Down - Without intelligence and outside energy, all systems naturally move from a state of order to disorder. (i.e., Second Law of Thermodynamics eliminates the possibility of eternal universe or its spontaneous generation. Since everything is running down, someone or something must have wound it up.)
  3. Fulfilled Prophecy - The Bible contains hundred of fulfilled prophecies. Some are very specific and written hundreds of years before they were fulfilled. How is that naturally explainable? God Himself stakes His identity upon that point.
  4. Accompanied Miracles - The Bible abounds with historical miracles that attest to their speaker's divine approval. The fact that these miracle workers almost universally died for their proclamation attests to their sincerity. The logic of their message attests to their sanity. The gospel proclaimers were credible witnesses and historians.
  5. Unity of Message - The Bible's unique and consistent message, even though written by 40 different writers over 1500 years, is a compelling testament to its common, divine author.
  6. Preservation of Text - The Bible has a profound witness of ancient, early, and consistent textual witnesses. No ancient text is so well preserved and transmitted with integrity.
Many more things could be said. You can go here for more discussion:
I have also included the body of a recent email on this same point at the bottom of this email for more consideration, which elaborates and documents many of the above points. ...

Incidentally, if you encounter some people claiming to be Christians, who claim modern inspiration or miracles, please do not assume that represents all Christians. (Just like you would not want to be identified with all atheists - Hitler, for example. I would not want to be prejudicially categorized by all other believers you may have encountered.) Many Christians believe that miracles were used to establish the origin of the Bible in the first century and earlier times. Since then, the Bible has been closed to updates and miraculous signs and inspiration have ceased (Galatians 1:6-8; Revelation 22:18-19), as was foretold and designed (Zechariah 13:2-5). Knowledge of God is available to all people today through the Scriptures (Ephesians 3:3-5; II Timothy 3:16-17). There we all stand on equal footing before God. There, He - not me or any other Christian - judges us based on what we do in accordance to His Word (II Corinthians 5:10; John 12:48).

Based on your tone and adamant condemnation, I will venture that you are not open to discussing these points further. If you ever would like to discuss these points, please consider and address the above points. I would be happy to share additional time and thought with you. My door remains open. :)

Thanks again for your input. I pray you will give these thoughts free and careful consideration.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12),

m273p15c
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)

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RE: Your Website is the Antithesis of Truth

Post by email » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:09 pm

m273p15c,

We are living out our lives seeking truth. I don't claim any special insight, though apparently you do. You didn't say if you hear God or only feel what he says.

So, I'm going to try to succinctly address each of your points below. (My comments in RED.)

Regards,

email

Thanks for your feedback. It is the desire of this web-site's authors and maintainers to answer each email logically, fairly, and with integrity. (Sounds good!) Therefore, please consider the following analysis of your more salient statements:
Your so-called Christian "truth" is false. That's clear because you, individually and collectively claim special and direct knowledge of a deity and because your belief relegates all others to be at least false and at most evil, worthy of eternal damnation and hellfire.
Why is Christianity false? You offered two reasons: 1) Christians claim to have "special and direct knowledge" 2) Christians think they are right and others are wrong.

You did not define "special and direct knowledge", although you used the term many times. (I don't think I should have to define supernatural mumbo jumbo with any more words.) However, the true Christian's knowledge (as opposed to what, "false Christian's knowledge" or plain old "ordinary Christian's knowledge"?) is just as easily accessible and demonstrable as are the religions of evolution, naturalism, and atheism. (Yes, churches, synagogues and mosques have written and stored their babel for centuries. Or, are you talking about all those "true Christian" tele-evangelists like Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, Herbert W. and his son Garner Ted Armstrong, Rev. Sun Young Moon, Jimmy and little Jimmy Swaggart, Robert Abbadabba Tilton, and those truly great swindlers, Mother Teresa and Billy Graham.) And, second, since you are better than me, you must think you are wrong and I am right? Pot, meet kettle. (No, you've got it reversed. Since you "speak" with God, you believe you are better than me and absolutely know more than me. So, you claim to be right and I am wrong. It amazes me how people like you are so certain about something you can't see, or touch. But, I believe you are simply deluded. Your one word, "faith" allows you to refer to the Science of Evolution as a religion while simultaneously ignoring tens of thousands of scientific papers that corroborate each other. It allows you to "event" your own science for your own purpose. For people like you "[color=rgb(255,255,255)]God said it, I believe it, that settles it." overcomes all science and reason. You believe without evidence. Sounds pathological to me.[/color] )
I've never met anyone, read about or even heard about anyone who has proof of anything supernatural. There is only one universe. There are no gods, ghosts, miracles or spirits anywhere.
Since the origins of the universe, the life of Jesus, and the integrity of Scripture are a matter of historical record (Of course these are--NOT. "True" Christians like yourself easily overlook nuances in words like "historical". The origins of the universe are events described only by scientists, not historians. There are very few historians that are not also brainwashed by notions of God, so of course most "history" has that bent. Have you read "A Distant Mirror" by Barbara Tuchman? This book demonstrates that your Christian beliefs are the direct results of really stupid, greedy, truly evil men. There's no God to any of it. And, how can you say that the Bible has more integrity than say the Koran? Moreover, the main text of the Bible you read was translated by a printer in England, not a theologian. Though, when King James' theologians tried to vet his work, their own bureaucratic inefficiency, laziness and ignorance allowed acceptance of his, not their translation. I'm just saying you have not given any thought to how different the world was in the time of Jesus. That man, if he existed, was, perhaps doing the best he could. But, it has become abundantly clear to me that he was a megalomaniac. This common human condition made him talk about the "end of the world" as if it was the end of everything, instead of just the end his own miserable life. His story should be more about the disciples who immortalized it. They took up the ideas of a very ordinary man (who was probably inspirational like David Koresh, Jim Jones and Marshall Applewhite) and carried them through the centuries. All the supernatural, miracle stuff is exactly what you would expect from Bronze-age men--the stuff of shaman and witch doctors. And, all the hyperbole is exactly what you expect from Middle Eastern story tellers. The miracles and mumbo jumbo have been getting deeper and deeper for centuries. The central tenant of life after death is a convenient lie we tell ourselves, our children and parents at times of stress and unhappiness. That does not make it true, not even if it is "written" in ancient books.) - not demonstrable science, they must be established or rejected by historical evidences and evaluation. The "back of an envelope" sketch for the case for God, Jesus, and the Bible's inspiration looks like this:
  1. Design - Design demands a designer (i.e., every effect has a cause). (Design is a word. If you use it, you may only apply it to a human activity that is described with words. You may apply it to monkeys or birds who fashion tools, not to any imaginary deity. If you use it any other way it is a fiction, fantasy and too easily, may a lie intended to deceive.)
  2. Run-Down - Without intelligence and outside energy, all systems naturally move from a state of order to disorder. (i.e., Second Law of Thermodynamics eliminates the possibility of eternal universe or its spontaneous generation. Since everything is running down, someone or something must have wound it up.)(Wow! This is really cosmoastrological! True pseudo-science. Sounds good, though!)
  3. Fulfilled Prophecy - The Bible contains hundred of fulfilled prophecies. Some are very specific and written hundreds of years before they were fulfilled. How is that naturally explainable? God Himself stakes His identity upon that point. (The Bible contains hundreds of prophecies it claims are fulfilled. One small problem is that most of these are repeated in other parts of the Bible. And, unfortunately, each part, though clearly from the same source, is slightly different, according to the scribe or author who wrote it down. Once again, just because it is written ancient text doesn't mean it is true. Actually, the opposite is true. If it is ancient, it probably contains numerous errors based on the general ignorance. Moreover, there are tens of thousands of errors and contradictions in the Bible when crosschecked with a computer. That is truly amazing. Not a miracle. Just very expected. Again, just because it is written in ancient books certainly doesn't make it true.)
  4. Accompanied Miracles - The Bible abounds with historical miracles that attest to their speaker's divine approval. The fact that these miracle workers almost universally died for their proclamation attests to their sincerity. The logic of their message attests to their sanity. The gospel proclaimers were credible witnesses and historians. (I would truly love to go back in time and find out what these people, who surely died, and ask them what their beliefs were. I'm sure it would be some combination of solidarity with their brothers, refusal to submit to more powerful authority, and faith. But, faith is nothing but the description of their own will. It supposedly comes from God himself. But, faith is exactly this: I believe and I don't have to tell you why. We are all susceptible to it. But, I don't believe a person should politely be allowed to refuse to explain their faith. I believe we have an obligation to explain what we understand. What I understand is that their are no miracles and there never have been. I'm open minded, though. Show me one and I'll be much more open. Show me a bit of evidence of even one miracle and I'll be glad to take a much closer look.)
  5. Unity of Message - The Bible's unique and consistent message, even though written by 40 different writers over 1500 years, is a compelling testament to its common, divine author. (Yes, it is a compelling message, worthy of scholarly study, how Bronze-age men wrote stuff that has been re-written, edited, subjected to recursion by countless "scholars" and modified for centuries to meet the very human needs of its readers and of clergy. I think the "unity" of the Bible is actually part of the same unity of nearly all ancient texts, including those outside the Abrahamic tradition.)
  6. Preservation of Text - The Bible has a profound witness of ancient, early, and consistent textual witnesses. No ancient text is so well preserved and transmitted with integrity. (I've got to say that it is really interesting to read how later theologians and scholars wrote about the experiences and feelings of illiterate, Bronze-age "witnesses". Another, more modern "witness" is the Diary of Samuel Pepys. In it he prays daily for a really robust fart, which he is convinced is a sign of health and vigor. If only he had beans to eat.)
Many more things could be said. You can go here for more discussion:
I have also included the body of a recent email on this same point at the bottom of this email for more consideration, which elaborates and documents many of the above points. ...

Incidentally, if you encounter some people claiming to be Christians, who claim modern inspiration or miracles, please do not assume that represents all Christians. (Just like you would not want to be identified with all atheists - Hitler, for example. I would not want to be prejudicially categorized by all other believers you may have encountered.) Many Christians believe that miracles were used to establish the origin of the Bible in the first century and earlier times. Since then, the Bible has been closed to updates and miraculous signs and inspiration have ceased (Galatians 1:6-8; Revelation 22:18-19), as was foretold and designed (Zechariah 13:2-5). Knowledge of God is available to all people today through the Scriptures (Ephesians 3:3-5; II Timothy 3:16-17). There we all stand on equal footing before God. There, He - not me or any other Christian - judges us based on what we do in accordance to His Word (II Corinthians 5:10; John 12:48).

Based on your tone and adamant condemnation, I will venture that you are not open to discussing these points further. (Yes, my tone. I am confused and angry. So, I have "tone". I am stymied that so many people are unable to see what is obvious to me. Your religion is the natural evolution from the first shaman witch doctor that threw magic bones out to capture and control his tribal family. You religion is just as true as magic bones. I'm not willing to listen to scripture any more. I do like history, though, especially history of civilization. I think much could be learned by studying how the Bible plagiarized earlier, especially Egyptian mythology. I am willing to discuss miracles: Show me one. I am willing to discuss brainwashing. What I am really interested in is how to raise children to believe in goodness without subjecting them to their parent's brainwashing. How can children grow beyond their parents dogma? Our general disregard of this question is why hundreds of millions of Muslims chant "death to America." I have been all over the world and I have a lifetime of experience watching religious people re-enforce their own dogma. "Jesus loves the little children . . . " Yes, I am adamant. You claim to have the secret but you can't or won't share it with me. Don't just ask me to read scripture. Show me something. Tell me where to go and see it. I've watched dozens of people die and I've stared into the dead eyes of hundreds. I've personally cared for sick, injured, pitifully ignorant and mentally challenged people. It is clear to me what that and all of us all are afraid of--death. Me, I'm afraid, too. But, not of dying, but of the lead up. I absolutely have no fear for myself after my brain stops. What I do fear is a world that keeps after I'm dead, relying on rote logic that people like you spew out. My goal is to keep picking away at rocks like you as long as I can. I don't believe there is any magic nor any god, nor any of the rest of the supernatural.) not smart enough to If you ever would like to discuss these points, please consider and address the above points. I would be happy to share additional time and thought with you. My door remains open. :)

Thanks again for your input. I pray you will give these thoughts free and careful consideration.

(Would you give careful consideration to why you don't believe that the angel Moroni gave the word of God to Joseph Smith. Is it any different than your beliefs? Why is any one, say Church of Christ, any different than the beliefs of Methodists, Jehovah Witnesses, Sufy Muslims, or the Scientology e-meter? Your answer, right or wrong, if honest and truthful, will make a huge difference in your life. )

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12),

m273p15c
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Re: Your Website is the Antithesis of Truth

Post by m273p15c » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:04 am

I appreciate the detailed answers, and I would answer in like kind; however, most of your answers should first be addressed by a few of points.

No, I don't receive special revelation. I don't hear voices, feel nudgings, or attempt to interpret dreams. In fact, I spend a lot of time through this web-site trying to convince other believers that what they think is the Holy Spirit is really their own desires manifesting themselves through their subjectively interpreted dreams and feelings. This self-induced guidance is a well documented problem, frequently condemned in Scripture.

Yes, special revelation (i.e., verbal plenary inspiration) did occur in the first century and in previous times to articulate the Bible (I Corinthians 2:1-16; II Timothy 3:16-17; Ephesians 3:3-5). It was well proven then, but it has not happened since. I would agree that those attest otherwise are greatly deceived. Moreover, whenever I discuss with Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, charismatic Christians, charismatic Muslims, or anybody else that believes in modern day revelation, I also ask them what makes them different than all the others. They have no answer, except their own personal feeling and assumption that the other person's feeling is not genuine.

As a professional engineer and scientist, who has spent some time in upper academia and publishing, I must say that anyone who has placed all their faith in the shamans of science is no different than the blind believers that you described. True science deals in what is repeatable, demonstrable, and testable. Without the dividing power of experimentation, there is no way to separate well storied error from unexpected truth. When scientists stack paper on top of paper, calculation on top of calculation, and degree on top of degree, to confidently declare what happened at the beginning of time - some supposedly several billion years ago, they are far more arrogant and deceived than those you chide for believing they can determine the original content of the NT, delivered less than a few thousand years ago.

There is a tremendous amount of bias that infects your thinking, which is preventing you from seeing your own inconsistencies and evaluating the evidence fairly.

Let me put it this way: If the best scientists and the engineers in all the world were somehow able to be brought together to build a spaceship to carry you to Mars, and if they were somehow cajoled into forgetting all personal motivations, agendas, biases, such that they could work together in true harmony without prejudice, but yet they were not permitted to test any of their calculations until you stepped onto the ship and they lit the engines, would you trust their self-corroborative calculations and papers? If not, then why do you trust them to build an indefensible and untested spaceship to carry your soul to the beginning of time and back again?

I'd much rather fly in the rocket to Mars, because at least it would be based in science that is much better understood, infinitely better tested, and longer studied. I know it is not a perfect illustration, but I am trying to help you to see that you are doing the very thing that you condemn in other believers.

The key is that the so called "science" of evolution and the big-bang cannot be tested; therefore, it falls into the realm of philosophy. People may conjecture based on present understanding, but that doesn't make it right, and even if they demonstrate a way that it could happen, that does not prove that it did happen. We are too far out of our league to speak about origins definitively.

I am not trying to prove Christianity by these statements. I say all of that to say this: Please do not dismiss hastily, just because a "scientist" laughed.

Lastly, please don't throw entire books at me. If you don't want me to tell you to go read the Bible, if you don't want me to ask if you have read Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, AnswersInGenesis, etc., please don't tell me that some book answers all my questions. Since you have already read them and were persuaded, I assume you can present their arguments better than I can, and I will rely upon you to do so. :)

So, can we start this discussion over without scoffing, rash categorization, and prejudicial assertion? Except to those who are easily bullied and intimidated, such rhetoric diminishes one's credibility. My case has not changed, but I would appreciate answers that are not primarily built upon the presumption of inerrant science and scientists. Please do not misunderstand. I am not trying to scoff in return, nor am I upset or offended in any way. You raised some good points, but there was so much noise overriding the signal, it would be difficult to separate. So, I am kicking this back to you. :) Please consider what I have said and reconsider my original questions. You have raised some valid questions and points, and I hope to see those reappear - minus the other.

With thanks and kind regards,

m273p15c
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RE: Your Website is the Antithesis of Truth

Post by email » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:29 pm

Ok! I'll try to be more succinct.

The are a lot more shamans in religion than in science. In science there is a process for evaluating new claims. With religion, new claims are not allowed, so can't even be considered, let alonet evaluated. Also, religious evaluation is mostly subjective. There are just claims and counter claims with no evidential proof. So, just how do you think Christ when he returns will be able to convince you of anything? With magic?

For most Christians, "faith" is proof enough. You clearly seem to have faith. How do you define it?

For example, how can you believe any book, even one supposedly composed or inspired by the creator of the universe, when nothing in it is not explainable as the work of Bronze Age writers? I mean, it's all so very technologically early and of a very limited scope. Even though loaded with content, there is absolutely no science in it. BTW, Muslims believe their book was similarly created, is infallible, but also claim it contains science up to and including quantum mechanics. Doesn't that make their book more believable--truer?

Your lack of trust in the current world of peer-reviewed scientific progress seems a little paranoid. Do you smell the devil?

You seem lost in a world tied to ancient and barbaric writings. Has it ever occurred to you to step back and say, "No, I want to get beyond rote beliefs and dogma and learn and understand it for myself."? No? Perhaps something is holding you back.

The religious, probably you included, are very afraid that they might be exposed to something for which their eternal soul might be damned to eternal hell fire. I have no such fear. BTW, Muslims are taught that the only place on Earth they are safe is in a mosque--soul-destroying evil lurks everywhere else. I don't think a person is truly safe anywhere, but I know that statistically most places are relatively safe. But, one thing everyone can rely upon is that their bodies will surely die.

So, I ask you, what if there is no 'life after death?" It would mean the end of Christianity. It would be a clear threat to an ingrained American lifestyle. It also means that Jesus (if such a person actually existed) was just a man and was no more the "son" of God that you or I. Why can't Christians be more like the Jews who take their Testament metaphorically? Clearly, life after death is not a subject at all up for re-evaluation by Christians, even though there is not one shred of evidence for it.

I say, leave out the magic and the mumbo jumbo and look carefully throughout the verses for any and all goodness that might be there. Like a garden the Bible has beautiful flowers and nurishing food, but beware the thorns, nettles and biting insects. What is very unfortunate is that much of the potentially enriching and nourishing thoughts in the Bible are ruined by supernatural mumbo jumbo. Do you believe something that is not explainable with words or in something that there is no evidence for? I don't. Have you ever seen angels flying? I've known some angels, to me all very significant people. They were not any kind of supernatural being, though they usually had a very memorable and sometimes powerful spirit.

For many Christians the voice in their head is the voice of god. Muslims call it "gin", as in "The Genie of Aladdin's Magic Lamp." Being an engineer, I'm sure you appreciate that this voice might be just what comes along with sentience and consciousness. Understanding that these derive from natural evolutionary processes makes a lot more sense to me than does a deity creating it all with a snap his fingers. I somewhat understand the voice in my head. I've read several books that help explain it, how and why it works and how it came to be. I'm wary of that voice, but overall I'm not afraid of it. It's also is a really good friend at times--number one BS detector.

Evolution can and has been "tested." Perhaps you are instead speaking of the first life on Earth that 'materialized' from the liquid and mineral substrate . That part has more conjecture, though now known to have happened over 3.5 billion years ago. In that way it is like the Big Bang. Do you have the math and physics background to argue against the Big Bang? It is called "science." Even, if simply highly substantiated conjecture. All of your miracles and mumbo jumbo are by definition, unsubstantiated. Scientists watch each other, read each other and depend on each other to stay on the straight and narrow. The religious depend on "secret" knowledge. Except for a tiny bit of archaeology, no science uses the Bible (or Koran) for any kind of substantiation. There are no scientific biblical tests.

Also, I'm sorry if I "threw" books at you. I really didn't ask you to read any. I was just providing a little substantiation for my thoughts. Please don't use Biblical scripture as any kind of proof, certainly not for such a concrete idea as "verbal plenary inspiration." And, "Proven then" is really a term filled with holes. How do you know anything was proven them, unless simply by faith, which we've discussed previously?

email

PS, I've included my latest "find". It is 36 of the most common arguments for God and 36 pretty thorough rebuttals. I'd bet you have seen it already if you were not afraid of hell. But, if not, take a look. It succinctly explains my position on most religious arguments. See the attached PDF.
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Re: Your Website is the Antithesis of Truth

Post by m273p15c » Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:46 pm

I don't feel like we are getting anywhere, at least not very fast. It seems there is too much being volleyed back and forth at one time, and a lot of points are being overlooked or surviving longer than they should.

How about this? What if we limited ourselves to one offensive and one defensive move per round? In other words, you make a point and respond to a point. Likewise, I will pursue a point while responding to your point. The idea is to keep each email as succinct as possible, while maintaining all fairness. I think we will do a better job communicating in the long run, although it may feel more tedious at times.

What do you think?

BTW, thanks for the attachment. It looks interesting. I have seen many of those responses, but I had not seen them condensed into a single PDF. BTW, the page number implied that it was part of a much larger book (or ebook). Can you send the complete reference. I may try to procure a copy.

Thanks!

m273p15c
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RE: Your Website is the Antithesis of Truth

Post by email » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:45 pm

m273p15c,

Ok! Here's my move. (Hope it's not too offensive;)

What I object to most is that you, the religious believer, claim God talks to you and answers your prayers. Thus, you somehow have special knowledge. This is not only ludicrus, it is wrong on many levels. Worse, you believe this despite the fact that there is no provable substantiation for any such claims. Even worse, the rest of us, through no fault of our own are supposedly somehow inferior to you, even damned. Worse even still you claim your knowledge tells you what god wants, who is good/going to heaven and who is evil/going to hell for eternity. This most often makes you believers arrogant and obnoxious and a pain to be around.

I've been watching and searching for years for any evidence or proof of anything supernatural. I've had no luck yet, even though I'm a very diligent, determined and thorough searcher and a proven finder. (So, yes!, I've heard ad nauseam what the religious claim to know.)

Special god-knowledge supposedly conveys on you believers a favored status. Though there's nothing inherently bad about being favored, usually it makes what you believe mutually exclusive, i.e., bad. That is, favor by your own unique deity or deities also condemns all others. It is all very unfair. What you religious don't seem to care about is that your own beliefs damages, hurts, threatens everyone else. Your concept of favored status causes all kinds of problems, controversy and grief for those of all other beliefs. This is the source of all strife in the Middle East today.

Useful, good beliefs, on the other hand, are not and should not be the exclusive property or right of anyone. The "Golden Rule" is an example. No wonder it is found in nearly all religions. I'm all for personal beliefs and scientific expressions of knowledge and understanding. If I know something good, I want to share it. But, you religious believers are selfish, blind and bigotted. You like being superior--favored by the gods.

In short, because of tradition and dogma you deny fact and common sense. Common sense would be enough, if you had any, to prove nearly enough that ordinary humans wrote both the Bible and the Koran. Neither have any divine content at all. That's more obvious than a bee sting on your nose.

You are, though you deny it, the living embodiment (dare I say almost a re-incarnation) of the first religious people, the shamans and witch doctors of pre-historic humans. You deny your own ignorant and superstitious nature. It never seems to occur to you, in fact, that you have no special knowledge nor any god-given understanding. In reality, your religion and your deities are simply cultural artifacts.

I am here to witness to you that you are extraordinarily human and that not only are your gods and beliefs false, those things don't exist, except in your mind.

Moreover, this situation is perfectly predictable and expected by science. That's even though we've all seen how, when facts becomes too evident, you even deny science. Make note, science is all we are and all we have. Your life ends when you body is brain-dead. This one life is all any of us have, except through our progeny. Any speculation otherwise is just that. (Unless you have some physical proof otherwise:)

True hope doesn't depend on an imaginary hereafter. True hope rests in the future prosperity of our children and of this world. If you believe otherwise, then you have NOT properly nor successfully extrapolated what our progenitors wrote in the Bible.

BTW, the book you suspect you'ld like to examine is of the same name as the attachment I sent you.

Also, BTW, in the news, how about all those religious Muslims rioting and killing because of challenges to their beliefs. And, a 'find' for me this week was a startling video of Jerry DeWitt, Pentecostal preacher turned atheist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xYLKh3cdCI

Regards,

email
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Re: Your Website is the Antithesis of Truth

Post by m273p15c » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:38 am

Thanks for the response, but this email seems much like the previous ones. You are telling me that I am wrong, but not showing me how I am wrong, or better yet, you are not showing me why (as in proving) I am wrong. I deal with creedally minded Christians all day, and this is how they talk. They think because they can spin a story that says I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. You are doing the very thing you detest. If you really want to get to the bottom of this, we have to talk objective evidence. Some of the "evidence" is common-sense philosophy. The other evidence is historical in nature.

Ok, let's analyze:
What I object to most is that you, the religious believer, claim God talks to you and answers your prayers. ...
Whoa! We are on two completely different pages. :) Why do you think I think that God talks to me? Didn't I say in previous emails that He does not? Yes, I believe that the Bible is inspired, that God talked to people almost 2000 years ago, but not since. Is that what you mean? But, that does not mean He talks to me any more than He talks to you. When you pick up the Bible, you hold the same message that I hold - nothing more. It is an external, objective standard that stands or falls on its on merits, not because I said so or because I "feel" so.

There is a LOT of anti-Christianity propaganda that is circulating, which includes a lot of mischaracterizations. I'm not asking you - yet - to forget it and become a Christian. I'm just asking you to let me define my own convictions. You don't want to fall for the straw-man fallacy.

One thing at a time, you know. :) I'm looking forward to hearing from you again.

Thanks!

m273p15c
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)

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RE: Your Website is the Antithesis of Truth

Post by email » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:15 pm

m273p15c,

Below please see the response I was going to send. Instead, I'm going to make this simple.

I realized that no matter how intelligent my argument, a person like you would not--could not--accept what I was saying. All we know for sure is that the Abrahamic holy books were written by Bronze Age men, and why would anyone believe anything dreamed up in pre-scientific times? If you do then you might as well dance with dragons and poke voodoo dolls.

Plus, I found a complete and better argument than we could have. Please see the ongoing discussion between Russell Glasser and Pastor Stephen Feinstein at http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/2012/10 ... nal-round/ . I certainly can't do better than they did. Stephen Feinstein, arguing for 'god', seems absolutely sure he's right.

That's something I notice about Christians in general: they always know they are right. I see this everywhere I look. For example, I'm reading an account of the Pilgrims who came from England on the Mayflower. They broke their promises with the Narragansett and Pocono Indians and then slaughtered women, children and the elderly by the hundreds in the name of 'Jesus the merciful.' Typical Christians. I understand the savages were really hard to deal with. It's one thing to lie about knowing god. But, to commit atrocities in the name of god and then thank him for your miserable life is truly mind boggling.

That's all from me. Good luck in the future. Hope someday you realize that there really isn't anything supernatural. It'll mean you've been dead wrong for a long time, but it'll be the truth. Truth can (in the right circumstances) set you free.

Best Regards,

email

By definition, if you believe in God then you are a supernaturalist. So, you are the one spinning mumbo jumbo, not me. And, I love it when supernaturalists talk of objective evidence. Philosophy smilosophy! Yes, the good Bible encourages slaughtering disobedient teenagers, legitimizes slavery and condemns non-believers to torture and burning in Hell's fire for eternity. What an impressive standard it is. Practically anything can be excused or justified when your "standard" is a longish, very ancient and obsessively revered book that is loaded with contradictions, yet is claimed to contain science, which began as an oral tradition but is known to be very poorly copied and translated through several editions, loaded with good stuff, some really bad, and a lot of fluff and outdated stuff to further confuse. A new standard is needed, thanks. Why not accept that there is no God, that the Bible and the entire Abrahamic religious culture propagates ancient fiction of pre-scientific people of the Middle East and Africa? Then you'll be able to say that it is a really good book, parts of which can be used as a guide for modern living. Which parts do you understand and approve of? The ancient writers of it were people trying as best they could to live right and do the right things. Just because they invented God doesn't mean what they write doesn't have lots of good, useful and very moral material. Being merely human would make Jesus even greater than you think he is. How much better to be a human who likely died for his belief in love and charity rather than the son of the celestial dictator. Why not try to eliminate the imaginary? With this new attitude a new guide for living might be written that cancels supernaturalism. Such a new standard could explain how each conscious human being is a unique result of natural processes, the knowledge of much of which remains in its infancy, but who's future is beyond imagination. Absolutely, it would explain in great detail who the ancient writers were and their great intellectual and technical achievements in writing the Bible and passing on their cultures and social memes to later generations. blah, blah!
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Re: Your Website is the Antithesis of Truth

Post by m273p15c » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:16 pm

I appreciate your ongoing concern for me. Thank you for the interesting find. I have added a thorough analysis of it to my TODO list.

Before you go, I would encourage you to look closely in the mirror. I have extended both hands in effort to studying this question openly with you. Instead, all I have received is scoffing, assertion that the Bible is uninspired, prejudicial determination to lump all "religious" people into one basket, and refusal to even allow me to define my own beliefs. How would you feel if I claimed that all unbelievers were cold, clinical, arrogant, Nazi, intellectual genocidal killing machines? More importantly, what would that prove? Please look carefully at how you have reasoned here. I do not think you could withstand judgment by the same prejudicial eye you have used to evaluate Christianity.

Maybe someday you can encounter a true Christian in person. I think things could have been different, if we had each other's full attention in a face-to-face study around a kitchen table. Email, especially sporadic email, makes persuasion almost impossible. So much communication is lost in email.

Thank you for your time. I want all the best for you. If you ever would like to talk again, please let me know. I would welcome the opportunity for a fair analysis.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,

m273p15c
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)

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