Just my 2 cents, but the American culture and mindset is one of independence. Compare it to countries who don't want democracy, even if its handed to them. Americans will give their lives for their freedoms, but other countries are more willing to live with terrorism, injustice, and oppression, just because it easier than dealing with the immediate costs of revolution. Sometimes things have to get worse in the short term to be made better for the long term. That is part of the reason why people were willing to give their lives in the American Revolution, and it is why people have been willing to continue to offer their lives to maintain that freedom.Marc wrote:Why isn't the quality of being a submissive wife really emphasized? It would really cut down on divorces and marital problems.
Unfortunately, the emphasis on religious freedom and liberty from despots has turned into border-line rebellion, even against legitmate authorities. Too often, I hear people say, "This is America! I got my rights! Nobody can tell me what to do!". Or, "You have to look out for #1!" "You have to make yourself happy first!" Our history and culture has provided a fertile breeding ground for rebellion, arrogance, and selfishness. Naturally, feminism has blossomed in such an environment.
Too many modern preachers, teachers, and Christians have become influenced by the world (despite Romans 12:1-2). They have bowed to the political gods and refused to quote the Scriptures that speak of distinct roles between men and women, including submission to husbands and the absensce of public leadership (Ephesians 5:22-23; I Timothy 2:8-15; Titus 2:1-5). Many have gone so far as to deny the inspiration of Scripture, demeaning it as temporal opinions and traditions of men, relevant only to the first century, at best.
Why has this happened? The same reason that Old Testament Israel wanted a king, to be like the nations around them (I Samuel 8:4-22). There are some among us, who are not of us (I John 2:18-19). In other words, many Christians are longing to be like the world, because deep down, they ultimately love it more than God (I John 2:1-17).
This is the root, I believe. Unfortunately, many young people have been led astray, not really understanding the Scriptures or the heart of the arguments. For example, little less than 10 years ago, an informal survey was taken at a "Christian College", as part of a "Marriage and Family" class. Over half of the "Christian students" believed that marriage was to be a 50-50 relationship. The wife had just as much right to have a career as the husband. Now, who tought them that? They did not invent that. They heard that somewhere...
God's way always works out best ("for our good always", Deuteronomy 6:24). You are right. If more people taught the Scriptures on this point, we would see much less divorce and more happy, secure marriages. But, then again, that's thing about faith. The wisdom behind God's laws is not always evident up front. Sometimes you only learn the wisdom after the fact. Therefore, we must walk by faith, lest we learn the wisdom of His judgments too late.
Just my 2 cents ... Anybody else?
16 To the woman He said:
"I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you."NKJV
Just some thoughts about the concepts of Women submitting to there husbands, it would seem that because Adam listened to his wife instead of GOD, that cursed man with the idea that the women would desire there husband, it doesn't seem that God is talking about a desire that we would normally assume, it seems that the desire seems more of a authority desire, and at the same time man would rule over the women as she desired his position.
It seems to be evident more and more as time goes on.
I am not dogmatic on this but it seems to make sense.
Can you clarify this a bit? What exactly do you mean by "We've willingly made our women real partners, in the worst sort of way." You all act as though women are 2nd rate citizens. Do you not see the middle eastern influence dripping from the pages of the bible? The exact same middle eastern influence that demands women be covered when in public places. Be circumcised in order to rid themselves of "impure thoughts". Receive no education- just like the women of Afghanistan who were controlled by the tali ban and less intelligent than a fourth grader in Reading and Writing. But wait- we need them to read and write in order to balance our checkbooks!Hugh McBryde wrote:Granted, when we listened to our wives instead of God, we asked for it. But that is beside the point, I acknowledge my place as Adam's son and I inherit his flaws. We've gone a bit farther than Adam. We've willingly made our women real partners, in the worst sort of way.
These are all ridiculous demands which were obviously written by alpha males of an uneducated and unenlightened society. Submit to what? Your will? Your will to what? To be dumber than you are? To spit out babies in an already overpopulated society? To stay at home and come and go only as you allow? I am certain you would be the men ready and willing to stone your children for quipping back to you if you had been in the really really unenlightened old testament, kill your wife if she cheats on you and roast your son if you hear a voice from the heavens, days. Wait, sorry I am getting the patriarchal and mosaic law periods confused aren't I?
Do you think women should have the right to vote?
Here is a humorous story- When I was ten years old, I believed that Jesus Christ was the son of God, so I threw my lot in with the Church of Christ (CoC's) or "The Church". So, the way it went was I heard, I believed, I repented, I confessed and then I was baptized. At the time I was in the young peoples class taught by Christian women. Well, of course a woman is not to have authority over a "man" in such matters and since I was a Christian, I was moved up into the high school class, because being a Christian MAL of 10 years old, it was obvious that a woman of 40 something years had no business teaching me in a public setting. Having that said, I would say 3rd rate citizen to even a 10 year old boy....
hmmm Sure, having absolutely no voice to decent would cut down on just about all disagreement throughout the world....grand idea! Its called Tyranny."Why isn't the quality of being a submissive wife really emphasized? It would really cut down on divorces and marital problems."
Just because the Muslim religion has a far more repressive stance on females, one should not assume that Christianity employs a similar belief system. In fact, I can think of no religion that has offered more to women than Christianity. Does it teach women are to be submissive to their husbands? Yes, it does (Ephesians 5:22-33). However, it also teaches that a man is to give his life for his wife, just as Jesus did for the church (Ephesians 5:25). Some men may abuse this and act as tyrants; however, such oppression likewise occurs when a true tyrant rules a nation, yet we are all to obey him, unless the tyrant's command would have us disobey God's command (Romans 13:1-7; Matthew 22:15-22; Acts 5:29).
Furthermore, I can think of no religion that limits the gender identity to this life:
Again:Matthew wrote:For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22:30)
What other religion teaches that gender identity ends at the grave? What other religion makes women completely equal with men in worth now and later? Islam, Mormonism, and others teach that women will serve men in "heaven", do they not? Yet, Christianity makes them equal!Paul wrote:There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28)
Is there a gender distinction now? Yes, but it is no different than the role differences that Jesus and the Father demonstrated, despite their equality (Philippians 2:3-8).
In regards to women teaching young Christian boys, we already have a thread that exposes the fallacy of pulling boys out of classes, as you described:
I am sorry that you were affected by this misapplication of Scripture. As you know, there are no perfect Christians, by their own general admission. So, I hope you would not grudgingly hold this mistake against them or their basic belief system.
We must also remember that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church. With that in mind, I doubt any women would have a problem being submissive in this context. God knew what he was doing.
In a true chrisitan home, there would be no question to being submissive as there would be mutual respect and love so that beint he healpmeat would not result in resentment or pain.