Rev:20:4 Has cause many to believe certain things about the coming of Christ. In light of all other scripture when do we reign with Christ? Is the 1000 years a literal time line our does this imply a long time with some kind of end?
The reign of Christ with His people here on earth is NOW! We are living this time period of a Fig. 1000 years as we speak! Is Christ not King are we not in the Kingdom? Had all authority been given to Christ in heaven and on earth?
Did Christ in many ways limit Satan in what he can do to you as a saved person?
Look at Job and see how this all works. But for us to declare that we are waiting for this lit. 1000 year reign where Christ will sit upon the lit. throne of David in the temple is wrong. We read in Acts 2 that He is sitting upon that throne as we speak, so then why think that he will return to earth to sit upon the physical throne when He reigns on the spiritual throne. Christ reign here on earth through His people, if you have not the spirit of Christ then you are none of His!
So we do not wait for the reign of Christ in the future as some mistakenly do, we are living that reign right now until He gathers us up.
We are living in the thousand year reign of Christ right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1000 Year reign of Christ
Moderator: grand_puba
1000 year reign of Christ
Now let's go to the scripture and see what the Bible has to say about the advent of Christ, after which the devil is bound for 1000 years, the same 1000 years that Christ establishes his kingdom on earth, the same 1000 years which is the judgement day.
2 Peter 3:8 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Revelation 19:11-21 (KJV) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, and LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 20:1-4 (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should
deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
2 Peter 3:8 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Revelation 19:11-21 (KJV) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, and LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 20:1-4 (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should
deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Last edited by luke1 on Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
are you saying that Christ has failed to establish His kingdom here on earth?Now let's go to the scripture and see what the Bible has to say about the advent of Christ, after which the devil is bound for 1000 years, the same 1000 years that Christ establishes his kingdom on earth, the same 1000 years which is the judgement day
What is the Kingdom? Who is in the Kingdom?
Is Christ reigning or not, if so then what is He reign over and were?
Is He not seated on the throne of David right now (Acts 2)?
Is the thousand years literal?
The bible has alot to say about the second advent of Christ, but none of it applies to a physical 1000 year reign here on earth, Christ reign now through His people here on earth.
1000 year reign of Christ
Did you quote any scripture at all, that I might be able to read. It would be most appreciated, if you would.
1. All authority had been given to Christ: Matt 28:18-20 " All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 " Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."NASU
2. Peter declares on the day of Pentecost that Christ sits upon the throne of David:Acts 2:29-34
29 " Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew thatGOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, thatHE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His fleshSUFFER DECAY. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: NASU
3. The kingdom would come with power as it did on that very day:Mark 9:1
And Jesus was saying to them, " Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."
NASU
4. They recieved that power when they recieved the Holy Spirit indicating that the kingdom had come, which is the very day that the church was established: Acts 1:6-8
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
NASU
5. Christ is king of His kingdom, we are in HIs kingdom, we are here on earth now, Christ reigns now here on earth through us in Spirit, He will do this for a period of time, a long period of time but with some kind of ending, hence the 1000 year reign of CHrist is not a physical reign but Spiritual. Notice that the disciples made the same mistake of thinking that His kingdom would be physical, but were wrong.
Does Christ reign now here on earth through His people?
What gives people the idea that it is a physical reigning here on earth?
Was satan not bound when Christ died on the cross, did something happen at that point in history?
2. Peter declares on the day of Pentecost that Christ sits upon the throne of David:Acts 2:29-34
29 " Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew thatGOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, thatHE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His fleshSUFFER DECAY. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: NASU
3. The kingdom would come with power as it did on that very day:Mark 9:1
And Jesus was saying to them, " Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."
NASU
4. They recieved that power when they recieved the Holy Spirit indicating that the kingdom had come, which is the very day that the church was established: Acts 1:6-8
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
NASU
5. Christ is king of His kingdom, we are in HIs kingdom, we are here on earth now, Christ reigns now here on earth through us in Spirit, He will do this for a period of time, a long period of time but with some kind of ending, hence the 1000 year reign of CHrist is not a physical reign but Spiritual. Notice that the disciples made the same mistake of thinking that His kingdom would be physical, but were wrong.
Does Christ reign now here on earth through His people?
What gives people the idea that it is a physical reigning here on earth?
Was satan not bound when Christ died on the cross, did something happen at that point in history?
1000 year reign of Christ
Acts 1:11 (KJV) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 (KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Luke 21:26-27 (KJV) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power
and great glory
Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Luke 21:20-28 (KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
All these things must happen, so that scripture might be fulfilled. After these things come to be," then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory":
Matthew 25:31 (KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
After these things are fulfilled, then begins Christs' 1000 year reign on earth,
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
2 Thessalonians 2:8 (KJV) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Revelation 1:7 (KJV) Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Luke 21:26-27 (KJV) Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power
and great glory
Matthew 24:30 (KJV) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Luke 21:20-28 (KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
All these things must happen, so that scripture might be fulfilled. After these things come to be," then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory":
Matthew 25:31 (KJV) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
After these things are fulfilled, then begins Christs' 1000 year reign on earth,
One very critical point of consideration regarding texts such as being quoted here involve what some consider technical apsects of language but truly are very basic, High School English level topics we've all been schooled in.
1) Are the contexts figurative or literal? Are the quotes from Revelations literal in their instruction and content? It takes only looking at the internal language itself to understand this. For example, the very same text being used to extract a literal "1000 years" also says this:
Take a look at the parables that Jesus used commonly to teach with in the Gospels for this type of stuff. But, the parables provide a stark contrast to that of books such as Revelation in that Jesus gave the real interpretations and meaning of the figures he used. Revelation does not intrisically provide an intepretation of what it's figures mean in the book itself. To do that requires the reader to look at other books with similar language and figures and see how they worked out over time to understand that the book is pointing at. In this case, you can find cases of what's sometimes referred to as "judgment language" like Revelation found in Ezekial, Daniel, and Isaiah for example. This is not easy stuff mind you but understanding figurative language is like that. Have you ever tried to read Edgar Alan Poe's stuff for instance which has a lot of figurative language in it? Not an easy read in many cases.
2) Another language structure used commonly is hyperbole. It's the use of a number or description in a way that is clearly not literal but chosen for emphasis on a greater principle. Hyperbole is a sub-topic of figurative language discussed above. But is seen in this context quoted:
Finally, luke1, I've read many of your posts with lots of scriptural quotes but I'm completely lost as to what you're conclusions or reasoning is in putting them together. I trust you understand that you just can't connect 2 Pet 3:8 to Rev 19:11-21 and expect them to read like one continuous thought or story just because you can quote them back to back. There is this rather significant detail of contextual alignment that has to be done in order to make that a valid reasoninig process. Would you agree? Would you please then establish what the contextual connection is between the scriptures you are quoting because as it stands now this appears to be either: a) very random or b) abusive to context and scripture.
1) Are the contexts figurative or literal? Are the quotes from Revelations literal in their instruction and content? It takes only looking at the internal language itself to understand this. For example, the very same text being used to extract a literal "1000 years" also says this:
If this is a literal context then Jesus has a literal sword that comes out of his mouth and defeats the nations. He'll also have a literal iron rod and be walking in a literal winepress very angrily. Sorry, taking this context literally makes no sense whatsoever. This is what is referred to as figurative, metaphorical language. The things being described are intended to draw some description to something else completely. Now, another detail related to language is definition in context. If it establsihed that a context is figurative, then you can't go through a pick and choose details that are figurative or literal.Rev 19:15 wrote:And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Take a look at the parables that Jesus used commonly to teach with in the Gospels for this type of stuff. But, the parables provide a stark contrast to that of books such as Revelation in that Jesus gave the real interpretations and meaning of the figures he used. Revelation does not intrisically provide an intepretation of what it's figures mean in the book itself. To do that requires the reader to look at other books with similar language and figures and see how they worked out over time to understand that the book is pointing at. In this case, you can find cases of what's sometimes referred to as "judgment language" like Revelation found in Ezekial, Daniel, and Isaiah for example. This is not easy stuff mind you but understanding figurative language is like that. Have you ever tried to read Edgar Alan Poe's stuff for instance which has a lot of figurative language in it? Not an easy read in many cases.
2) Another language structure used commonly is hyperbole. It's the use of a number or description in a way that is clearly not literal but chosen for emphasis on a greater principle. Hyperbole is a sub-topic of figurative language discussed above. But is seen in this context quoted:
So to ask similar as before, is there a literal 1 day = 1,000 yr relationship that Peter is saying exists between the "human world" and the "spiritual world"? Not harldy. Peter is using hyperbole to express a principle that time is of no consequence to God. Petere is stating a very difficult concept for us that God is not bound by time nor operates in a time continuum.2 Pet 3:8 wrote:But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Finally, luke1, I've read many of your posts with lots of scriptural quotes but I'm completely lost as to what you're conclusions or reasoning is in putting them together. I trust you understand that you just can't connect 2 Pet 3:8 to Rev 19:11-21 and expect them to read like one continuous thought or story just because you can quote them back to back. There is this rather significant detail of contextual alignment that has to be done in order to make that a valid reasoninig process. Would you agree? Would you please then establish what the contextual connection is between the scriptures you are quoting because as it stands now this appears to be either: a) very random or b) abusive to context and scripture.
1000 year reign of Christ
Let me say that scripture is not an easy subject matter, at least not for me, none the less, it is scripture.
2 Timothy 3:15-16(KJV) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Revelation 19:15 (KJV) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Three different occurences, or events transpire in this verse: Something is emitted out of his mouth and is likened to a sharp sword. Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Rider is Jesus, and out of his mouth proceedth the Word of God. The sword is a weapon of destruction. "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit," and with this weapon he will smite the nations.
After this, he will rule the them with a rod of iron: Zechariah 14:16-19 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
"and he treadeth the winepress of the firerceness and wrath of Almighty God"
Isaiah 63:1-4 (KJV) Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
there is more scripture pertaining to this passage, but it takes much time for me to look them up. They just don't pop up in my head.
2 Timothy 3:15-16(KJV) And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Revelation 19:15 (KJV) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Three different occurences, or events transpire in this verse: Something is emitted out of his mouth and is likened to a sharp sword. Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Rider is Jesus, and out of his mouth proceedth the Word of God. The sword is a weapon of destruction. "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit," and with this weapon he will smite the nations.
After this, he will rule the them with a rod of iron: Zechariah 14:16-19 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
"and he treadeth the winepress of the firerceness and wrath of Almighty God"
Isaiah 63:1-4 (KJV) Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
there is more scripture pertaining to this passage, but it takes much time for me to look them up. They just don't pop up in my head.
Getting back to the basics, I would be interested to hear peoples thoughts about the REIGN of Christ.
How many Kingdoms does God fortell that Christ would be King of through scripture?
What scriptures prove an earthly reign of Christ for a LITERAL 1000 years?
Luke1 has introduced many scripture but not one says that CHrist will set one physcal foot upon this earth again.
He still has not answered whether or not Christ is reigning or on a throne or whether there is a Kingdom upon this earth which Christ is King of.
Again His own disciples did not understand the nature of the Kingdom of God, and again today most people do not understand the nature of the kingdom of God because of man's false ideas of this kingdom.
I have shown how Peter spoke of the prophecy being fufilled on the day of Pentecost, that prophecy is that Jesus would sit on the throne of David. Acts 2:30-32
30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew thatGOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, thatHE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His fleshSUFFER DECAY.
NASUIn todays pre mil. doctrine many are still waiting for Christ to return to the earth to sit upon this physical throne in the temple, which will never be rebuilt!
Luke1 = just for the record if you go back and study really close Matt chapter 24 and Luke chapter 21, you will hopfully see that the scriptures are talking about two events, first the destruction of Jerusalem, then the second coming of Christ, one would come with sign (D.O.J.) and one would come as a thief in the night, (Judgment, second coming of Christ). Both are comings of Christ one fig. one Lit. one a type one the antitype.
It is important to understand the different types of comings of Christ wether Lit. or Fig.
One thing is for sure though, Christ's Kingdom does indeed reign today upon this earth through His servants.
Col 1:13-14
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
NASU
What is a KIng without a Kingdom, what is a king that does no rule were his subjects are?
How many Kingdoms does God fortell that Christ would be King of through scripture?
What scriptures prove an earthly reign of Christ for a LITERAL 1000 years?
Luke1 has introduced many scripture but not one says that CHrist will set one physcal foot upon this earth again.
He still has not answered whether or not Christ is reigning or on a throne or whether there is a Kingdom upon this earth which Christ is King of.
Again His own disciples did not understand the nature of the Kingdom of God, and again today most people do not understand the nature of the kingdom of God because of man's false ideas of this kingdom.
I have shown how Peter spoke of the prophecy being fufilled on the day of Pentecost, that prophecy is that Jesus would sit on the throne of David. Acts 2:30-32
30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew thatGOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, thatHE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His fleshSUFFER DECAY.
NASUIn todays pre mil. doctrine many are still waiting for Christ to return to the earth to sit upon this physical throne in the temple, which will never be rebuilt!
Luke1 = just for the record if you go back and study really close Matt chapter 24 and Luke chapter 21, you will hopfully see that the scriptures are talking about two events, first the destruction of Jerusalem, then the second coming of Christ, one would come with sign (D.O.J.) and one would come as a thief in the night, (Judgment, second coming of Christ). Both are comings of Christ one fig. one Lit. one a type one the antitype.
It is important to understand the different types of comings of Christ wether Lit. or Fig.
One thing is for sure though, Christ's Kingdom does indeed reign today upon this earth through His servants.
Col 1:13-14
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
NASU
What is a KIng without a Kingdom, what is a king that does no rule were his subjects are?
1000 year reign of Christ
Well, you have quite a list of questions, and I will have to deal with them one at a time, for lack of time.
You said that I did not introduce scripture to the affect that Christ set his feet on the earth.
Isaiah 63:1-4 (KJV) Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
Both Edom and Bozrah are on ground zero.
You said that I did not introduce scripture to the affect that Christ set his feet on the earth.
Isaiah 63:1-4 (KJV) Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
Both Edom and Bozrah are on ground zero.
It's kinda hard for me to post here in response to this without being too long winded. 
So instead of a lengthy post, I'm just gonna post a couple of links to some things I have written on this topic.
http://cedarparkchurchofchrist.org/cpco ... lennialism
http://www.fileupyours.com/files/60753/ ... course.doc
So the next time you get a little insomnia
give 'em a look. It deals with most the points above. Let me know what you think.
Peace!
So instead of a lengthy post, I'm just gonna post a couple of links to some things I have written on this topic.
http://cedarparkchurchofchrist.org/cpco ... lennialism
http://www.fileupyours.com/files/60753/ ... course.doc
So the next time you get a little insomnia
give 'em a look. It deals with most the points above. Let me know what you think. Peace!
1. The bible does not say that CHrist will reign on earth for a thousand years.
2. Rev. 20 does not refer to a reign of Christ.
3. The text says they reigned with Him.
4.There is no mention of second coming.
5. It does not mention a bodily resurrection.
6. It does not mention the throne of David.
7. It does not mention Jerusalem or Palestine.
8. There is no temple mentioned.
2. Rev. 20 does not refer to a reign of Christ.
3. The text says they reigned with Him.
4.There is no mention of second coming.
5. It does not mention a bodily resurrection.
6. It does not mention the throne of David.
7. It does not mention Jerusalem or Palestine.
8. There is no temple mentioned.
1000 year reign of Christ
When Jesus was here on earth, he asked the people to pray in this manner. Please consider that the people are on the planet earth, reciting this prayer. The prayer, of course is the Our Father........ thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth...
If they are to recognize his kingdom here on earth, they will have to recognized him as being King of His Kingdom.
Jesus is presently sitting at the right of Father, (by Timothys' account standing at the right hand of Majesty), none the less in both instances at the right hand of the Father. It is at the right hand of his Fathers' throne that He is next to.
It is Jesus who left his glory to come in the flesh in the line of David, not the Father. It is still the Fathers throne until he puts all enemies under Jesus' feet. The present role of Jesus now is mediator, as High Priest of God, who stands for us against the accuser. Jesus will be given a kingdom, and it will be on earth, and it will be the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, when He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.
I will invite anyone who wishes to read more on this topic to go to: David J. Heintzman, And man became a living soul.
When you arrive at his website, go to chapter 9. His is a better, indepth study of this subject.
If they are to recognize his kingdom here on earth, they will have to recognized him as being King of His Kingdom.
Jesus is presently sitting at the right of Father, (by Timothys' account standing at the right hand of Majesty), none the less in both instances at the right hand of the Father. It is at the right hand of his Fathers' throne that He is next to.
It is Jesus who left his glory to come in the flesh in the line of David, not the Father. It is still the Fathers throne until he puts all enemies under Jesus' feet. The present role of Jesus now is mediator, as High Priest of God, who stands for us against the accuser. Jesus will be given a kingdom, and it will be on earth, and it will be the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, when He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.
I will invite anyone who wishes to read more on this topic to go to: David J. Heintzman, And man became a living soul.
When you arrive at his website, go to chapter 9. His is a better, indepth study of this subject.
I just read through most of chapter nine of this work. He separates Revelation 20 from other passages that make it clear that the Kingdom is a present living reality.
He also ignores the many time texts in Revelation, as well as those where Jesus and John the Baptist said the Kingdom was at hand.
Luke1, some time over the next few weeks, please take a look at the links I posted above. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I have spent many many hours searching the scriptures on these matters in recent years. Please give them a read, checking everything I say with scripture.
In humble Christian love,
Jarrod
He also ignores the many time texts in Revelation, as well as those where Jesus and John the Baptist said the Kingdom was at hand.
Luke1, some time over the next few weeks, please take a look at the links I posted above. I certainly don't have all the answers, but I have spent many many hours searching the scriptures on these matters in recent years. Please give them a read, checking everything I say with scripture.
In humble Christian love,
Jarrod
1000 year reign of christ
This is what Mr. Heintzman says, in referring to Isaiah 26: 1-7, as he goes on to say: that the prophet is referring of the time of the COMING kingdom and the times of refreshing and regeneration which Jesus promised. These clearly refer to the 1000 year reign of Christ when he sets up his kingdom on EARTH, and the time when the twelve apostles would judge the twelve tribes on earth.
Isaiah 26:8-9 (KJV) Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee. Isaiah 26:9 (KJV) With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when THY JUDGMENTS ARE IN THE EARTH, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
The Lords prayer is the standard given by God in the manner that we should pray: thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth.
Again Jesus's present position is at the right hand of the Father, as High Priest, as mediator for us, against the accusations of the devil. It is not his throne, but of the Father. He will however, be given a throne, a 1000 year reign on earth, as the Lords prayers also calls for, in which Jesus will sit on the throne of his glory, ruling the nations with a rod of iron, thus his will, will be done as it is in heaven. This then is the 1000 year reign of Christ on planet earth, which will be established after His second Advent.
Isaiah 26:8-9 (KJV) Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee. Isaiah 26:9 (KJV) With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when THY JUDGMENTS ARE IN THE EARTH, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
The Lords prayer is the standard given by God in the manner that we should pray: thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth.
Again Jesus's present position is at the right hand of the Father, as High Priest, as mediator for us, against the accusations of the devil. It is not his throne, but of the Father. He will however, be given a throne, a 1000 year reign on earth, as the Lords prayers also calls for, in which Jesus will sit on the throne of his glory, ruling the nations with a rod of iron, thus his will, will be done as it is in heaven. This then is the 1000 year reign of Christ on planet earth, which will be established after His second Advent.
1000 year reign of christ
This is what Mr. Heintzman says, in referring to Isaiah 26: 1-7, as he goes on to say: that the prophet is referring of the time of the COMING kingdom and the times of refreshing and regeneration which Jesus promised. These clearly refer to the 1000 year reign of Christ when he sets up his kingdom on EARTH, and the time when the twelve apostles would judge the twelve tribes on earth.
Isaiah 26:8-9 (KJV) Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee. Isaiah 26:9 (KJV) With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when THY JUDGMENTS ARE IN THE EARTH, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
The Lords prayer is the standard given by God in the manner that we should pray: thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth.
Again Jesus's present position is at the right hand of the Father, as High Priest, as mediator for us, against the accusations of the devil. It is not his throne, but of the Father. He will however, be given a throne, a 1000 year reign on earth, as the Lords prayers also calls for, in which Jesus will sit on the throne of his glory, ruling the nations with a rod of iron, thus his will, will be done as it is in heaven. This then is the 1000 year reign of Christ on planet earth, which will be established after His second Advent.
Isaiah 26:8-9 (KJV) Yea, in the way of thy judgments, O LORD, have we waited for thee; the desire of our soul is to thy name, and to the remembrance of thee. Isaiah 26:9 (KJV) With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when THY JUDGMENTS ARE IN THE EARTH, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
The Lords prayer is the standard given by God in the manner that we should pray: thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth.
Again Jesus's present position is at the right hand of the Father, as High Priest, as mediator for us, against the accusations of the devil. It is not his throne, but of the Father. He will however, be given a throne, a 1000 year reign on earth, as the Lords prayers also calls for, in which Jesus will sit on the throne of his glory, ruling the nations with a rod of iron, thus his will, will be done as it is in heaven. This then is the 1000 year reign of Christ on planet earth, which will be established after His second Advent.
Christ was promised but ONE reign, and He now rules at the right hand of God. (Psalm 110:1-4; Acts 2:34-36) This reign leaves no room for another reign, for it lasts until whatever the 1000 reign signifies in Rev.20. It continues until death is concoured, and death is not conquered until death and hades are cast into the lake of fire. This comes after the thousand years. So, whatever the thousand years represent it comes within the present reign of Christ. (1 Corin. 15:24-28; Rev20:11-21:5)
Christ's reign in His kingdom was at hand during His personal ministry. (Mk. 1:14, 15) Two different reigns could not have been at hand. The one which was at hand is the one which was established. The one which was established was the reign at God's right hand. Therefore, this is the rule on David's throne, for otherwise a different type of kingdom was at hand from the one which WAS established!
The Church and the kingdom are together as one unit, you cannot be in the church and not be in His kingdom, to be in His kingdom is to be in the church!
If you agree that there is a church, then there is a present kingdom right here on earth through His church which is a spiritual reign.
Did Christ fail to fulfill the law and the prophets which for told of this kingdom, which you assume is still in the future even though Christ is reigning right now through His people here on earth right now?
It doesn't add up for you.
Christ's reign in His kingdom was at hand during His personal ministry. (Mk. 1:14, 15) Two different reigns could not have been at hand. The one which was at hand is the one which was established. The one which was established was the reign at God's right hand. Therefore, this is the rule on David's throne, for otherwise a different type of kingdom was at hand from the one which WAS established!
The Church and the kingdom are together as one unit, you cannot be in the church and not be in His kingdom, to be in His kingdom is to be in the church!
If you agree that there is a church, then there is a present kingdom right here on earth through His church which is a spiritual reign.
Did Christ fail to fulfill the law and the prophets which for told of this kingdom, which you assume is still in the future even though Christ is reigning right now through His people here on earth right now?
It doesn't add up for you.
1000 year reign of Christ
This pertains to the ones who come up against Jerusalem, which brings about the second advent of Christ to earth.
Zechariah 14:16-21 (KJV)16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
The church does not have these feasts, it is earthly Israel who will keep these feasts. It is real rain, not spritual rain.
Earthly Jerusalem, earthly Egypt, and whoso will not come up of ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE 'EARTH' .
It is Israel, who has been blinded in part, not the church. But Israel will be restored, and all the promises that God made to Abraham concerning the land, will be kept. It will happen in the millineum, Christs' rule on earth, a literal 1000 years, lest why mention it 6 times in the same passage.
Recite the Lords prayer, why would Jesus ask us to recite a prayer including the words "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" all this while He Himself, standing on planet earth. Simply because it will be so when He reigns on earth.
Zechariah 14:16-21 (KJV)16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
The church does not have these feasts, it is earthly Israel who will keep these feasts. It is real rain, not spritual rain.
Earthly Jerusalem, earthly Egypt, and whoso will not come up of ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE 'EARTH' .
It is Israel, who has been blinded in part, not the church. But Israel will be restored, and all the promises that God made to Abraham concerning the land, will be kept. It will happen in the millineum, Christs' rule on earth, a literal 1000 years, lest why mention it 6 times in the same passage.
Recite the Lords prayer, why would Jesus ask us to recite a prayer including the words "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" all this while He Himself, standing on planet earth. Simply because it will be so when He reigns on earth.
It is NOT Christ's reign, the text says that those, they will reign with Christ a thousand years, you must understand the kingdom in order to understand the reign. When do people become priests? Look at the context of those who would take no part in the second death, they are priests and THEY would reign with Christ for a 1000 years. CHrist's reign will last until He hands over the kingdom back to the Father (1 Corin.15). Christ is reigning right now, we are reigning with Him right now, He sits upon Davids throne right now, He rules from heaven, and when He returns He will not set one foot upon this earth, show me one sripture that says that this will happen explicitly! You cannot because its not there. We are those spoken of in Rev. 20, the reign of those people is now!
1000 year reign of Christ
As for your view that Christ is now reigning on Davids throne:
Hosea 3:4 (KJV) For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
Christ is now sitted at the right hand of God, as High Priest and mediator for us. It is the Fathers throne. Christ will be given a kingdom in which He will sit in glory, and will rule with a rod of iron on earth, the same 1000 literal years spoken of in scripture. This same 1000 years which are repeated six times in the same passage.
As for your request to show you scripture that Christ is on earth:
Isaiah 63:1 (KJV) Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
How can Christ come from Edom or Bozrah, if He is not on earth, or for that matter how could anyone come from Edom or Bozrah, if they were not on earth?
Hosea 3:4 (KJV) For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
Christ is now sitted at the right hand of God, as High Priest and mediator for us. It is the Fathers throne. Christ will be given a kingdom in which He will sit in glory, and will rule with a rod of iron on earth, the same 1000 literal years spoken of in scripture. This same 1000 years which are repeated six times in the same passage.
As for your request to show you scripture that Christ is on earth:
Isaiah 63:1 (KJV) Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
How can Christ come from Edom or Bozrah, if He is not on earth, or for that matter how could anyone come from Edom or Bozrah, if they were not on earth?
David's throne
Acts 2:29-34
29 " Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew thatGOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, thatHE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His fleshSUFFER DECAY. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
Even though I am not sure what point you have proven in your last post it does not matter none, because without a doubt Peter tells us that Jesus is the one who sits on David's throne, I know it it is hard to understand since it is a spiritual throne and not a literal one. Since you make everything from Rev. 20 literal which doesn't even speak of David's throne, you put yourself in a position to identify all things literal.
Could you acknowledge a few points that I have introduced and you have ignored:
1. Is Christ our King?
2. What is He King of?
3. Is there even a kingdom here on earth?
4. Did Christ fail to set up His kingdom here on earth so instead He established His church?
5. Is the church and the Kingdom different?
6. In the context of Rev. 20 those who partake of the first resurrection are priests, in the context of the N.T. who are priests, and what is the first resurrection?
7. How many Kingdoms did the prophets proclaim?
8. Notice the context of Rev. 20, who is reigning for a 1000 years, CHrist or those who John identifies within the context?
9. Is the book of Rev. to be taken literal word for word?
10. If Christ is only going to reign for a thousand years, then what is He doing right now?
Just to spice things up a little, most people will conclude that Dan. 7 speaks of the second coming but they are wrong, this speaks of when Christ would recieve the kingdom, when he would go to the Father.
a.Dan 7:13-14 13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, one like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion,Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.NKJVb.We must be careful in understanding this passage for often it is interpreted in reference to the second coming of Christ.
c.Look at the wording: He (Christ) came to the Ancient of days (Father). They brought Him (Christ) near before Him (Father) To Him (Christ) was given dominion and glory and a KINGDOM!
1)Who gave Christ the kingdom?
2)The Father gave Christ the Kingdom, when?
3)The prophecy of Dan. says “Coming with the clouds of Heaven”
4)Not coming to earth but Dan. is seeing a vision of Christ coming to the Father and sitting down at His right hand in which He receives the Kingdom.
5)Ten days after Christ ascended into Heaven, Christ sent the Holy Spirit with Power, on that day Christ’s Kingdom was established.
We know from Mark 9:1 that the kingdom would come with Power and those who christ was speaking to would not taste death until the saw the Kingdom come! It all adds up.
29 " Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 "And so, because he was a prophet and knew thatGOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, thatHE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His fleshSUFFER DECAY. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
Even though I am not sure what point you have proven in your last post it does not matter none, because without a doubt Peter tells us that Jesus is the one who sits on David's throne, I know it it is hard to understand since it is a spiritual throne and not a literal one. Since you make everything from Rev. 20 literal which doesn't even speak of David's throne, you put yourself in a position to identify all things literal.
Could you acknowledge a few points that I have introduced and you have ignored:
1. Is Christ our King?
2. What is He King of?
3. Is there even a kingdom here on earth?
4. Did Christ fail to set up His kingdom here on earth so instead He established His church?
5. Is the church and the Kingdom different?
6. In the context of Rev. 20 those who partake of the first resurrection are priests, in the context of the N.T. who are priests, and what is the first resurrection?
7. How many Kingdoms did the prophets proclaim?
8. Notice the context of Rev. 20, who is reigning for a 1000 years, CHrist or those who John identifies within the context?
9. Is the book of Rev. to be taken literal word for word?
10. If Christ is only going to reign for a thousand years, then what is He doing right now?
Just to spice things up a little, most people will conclude that Dan. 7 speaks of the second coming but they are wrong, this speaks of when Christ would recieve the kingdom, when he would go to the Father.
a.Dan 7:13-14 13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, one like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion,Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.NKJVb.We must be careful in understanding this passage for often it is interpreted in reference to the second coming of Christ.
c.Look at the wording: He (Christ) came to the Ancient of days (Father). They brought Him (Christ) near before Him (Father) To Him (Christ) was given dominion and glory and a KINGDOM!
1)Who gave Christ the kingdom?
2)The Father gave Christ the Kingdom, when?
3)The prophecy of Dan. says “Coming with the clouds of Heaven”
4)Not coming to earth but Dan. is seeing a vision of Christ coming to the Father and sitting down at His right hand in which He receives the Kingdom.
5)Ten days after Christ ascended into Heaven, Christ sent the Holy Spirit with Power, on that day Christ’s Kingdom was established.
We know from Mark 9:1 that the kingdom would come with Power and those who christ was speaking to would not taste death until the saw the Kingdom come! It all adds up.
1000 year reign of Christ
When Christ returns, all eyes will behold him.
We are branches which have been grafted into the tree of life, but we are not the root of it. Salvation is of the Jews. God will honor his promise to Abraham concerning the land promises to Israel, and will be realized during his 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.
The church has not been blinded, but is receiving grace through faith in Jesus (gospel). It is Israel who has been blinded in part until the fulness of the gentiles be come in.
I will need to return to this at a later date.
We are branches which have been grafted into the tree of life, but we are not the root of it. Salvation is of the Jews. God will honor his promise to Abraham concerning the land promises to Israel, and will be realized during his 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.
The church has not been blinded, but is receiving grace through faith in Jesus (gospel). It is Israel who has been blinded in part until the fulness of the gentiles be come in.
I will need to return to this at a later date.
The land promises were always conditional, why do you think they went into captivity? Today the land promises are no different, look how disobedient they are, why people call that place the Holy Land is beyond me, there is nothing Holy about the land of Israel today, 80% of the people do not even believe in God. Tell me how this fits in with the so called 1000 year reign of Christ theory?
Earlier luke1 wrote:
Luke1 wrote:
Answer: The same way the father came to Babylon in Isaiah 13 and to Egypt in Isaiah 19. It is a coming in judgment, and when scripture speaks of God (be it the father or the son) coming in judgment, it is often within the context of one nation destroying another nation. God is providentially acting through the instrument of one group of people to bring judgment upon another.Isaiah 63:1 (KJV) Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
How can Christ come from Edom or Bozrah, if He is not on earth, or for that matter how could anyone come from Edom or Bozrah, if they were not on earth?
Luke1 wrote:
By this you are saying that the land promise was not fulfilled. What then do you do with Joshua 21:43-45? It says:God will honor his promise to Abraham concerning the land promises to Israel, and will be realized during his 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.
43 So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The LORD gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.
Earlier luke1 wrote:
Luke1 wrote:
Answer: The same way the father came to Babylon in Isaiah 13 and to Egypt in Isaiah 19. It is a coming in judgment, and when scripture speaks of God (be it the father or the son) coming in judgment, it is often within the context of one nation destroying another nation. God is providentially acting through the instrument of one group of people to bring judgment upon another.Isaiah 63:1 (KJV) Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
How can Christ come from Edom or Bozrah, if He is not on earth, or for that matter how could anyone come from Edom or Bozrah, if they were not on earth?
Luke1 wrote:
By this you are saying that the land promise was not fulfilled. What then do you do with Joshua 21:43-45? It says:God will honor his promise to Abraham concerning the land promises to Israel, and will be realized during his 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.
43 So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. 44 The LORD gave them rest all around, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.
1000 year reign of Christ
If they had heeded to do the commandment and the law which Moses charged them with, they would indeed still have possession of the land. The promise was for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION.
Joshua 22:5 (KJV) But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Genesis 17:7 (KJV) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an EVERLASTING COVENANT, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:8 (KJV) And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION; and I will be their God.
The promise to the nation of Israel received a primary fulfillment under Joshua's leadership (Josh. 21:45).
However, in the future:
"The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess" (Jer. 30:3)
It has not been fulfilled to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob as yet, but it will be fulfilled just as God promised.
Acts 7:5 (KJV) And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
Matthew 8:11 (KJV) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Abraham was promised earthly land, not a heavenly kingdom, however when Christ rules on earth it will be the Kingdom of God.
Luke 13:29 (KJV) And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. East, west, north, and south, these are EARTHLY directional points.
As concerning the resurrection: "You are in error because you do not know the Scripture or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead-have you not read what God said to you: "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living" (Matthew 22:29-32)
They must live again through resurrection in the future to receive what the covenant had guaranteed them.
Hebrews 11:8-9 (KJV) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Hebrews 11:13 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
God will give to them the promised land which He foreswore to give them.
Joshua 22:5 (KJV) But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Genesis 17:7 (KJV) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an EVERLASTING COVENANT, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:8 (KJV) And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION; and I will be their God.
The promise to the nation of Israel received a primary fulfillment under Joshua's leadership (Josh. 21:45).
However, in the future:
"The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess" (Jer. 30:3)
It has not been fulfilled to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob as yet, but it will be fulfilled just as God promised.
Acts 7:5 (KJV) And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
Matthew 8:11 (KJV) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Abraham was promised earthly land, not a heavenly kingdom, however when Christ rules on earth it will be the Kingdom of God.
Luke 13:29 (KJV) And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. East, west, north, and south, these are EARTHLY directional points.
As concerning the resurrection: "You are in error because you do not know the Scripture or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead-have you not read what God said to you: "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living" (Matthew 22:29-32)
They must live again through resurrection in the future to receive what the covenant had guaranteed them.
Hebrews 11:8-9 (KJV) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Hebrews 11:13 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
God will give to them the promised land which He foreswore to give them.
Luke1,
I appreciate your comments. While we obviously disagree on several points, I believe we both are striving as best we can to determine what the inspired Word teaches on this matter. Here are some comments in response to your most recent post above, which I hope you will give consideration.
You wrote:
Luke1 wrote:
Luke1 wrote:
Luke1 wrote:
Luke1 wrote:
Luke1 wrote:
Luke1 wrote:
Luke1 wrote:
Luke1 wrote:
Another point regarding the nature of the kingdom that is interesting to note is that the phrase “kingdom of Heaven” appears only in Matthew. The “kingdom of Heaven” is the same as the “kingdom of God”. This is seen by the fact that Matthew used the two terms interchangeably in Matthew 19:23-24, and is also seen by comparing all of the gospel accounts. For example, compare Matthew 19:23-24 with Mark 10:23-25 and Matthew 3:2 to Mark 1:15. Why would Matthew frequently use the phrase “kingdom of Heaven”? It is generally recognized by almost all conservative scholars that Matthew is a Jew writing to a Jewish audience, whereas Luke was written to a gentile (Theophilus), and Mark’s audience was most likely gentile as well. It is as if Matthew may be referring to it as the “kingdom of Heaven” to further drive the point home to the Jews that it is a spiritual kingdom.
The kingdom of God is an eternal spiritual kingdom where Christ forever reigns as King, and citizens in the kingdom serve him day in night. That being the case, our warfare is spiritual (Eph.6:12), our sacrifices (in contrast to the premillennial view that there will be physical sacrifices in the rebuilt temple) are spiritual (Rom.12:1; Heb.13:15; Rev.5:8, and our food is spiritual (Heb.5:12-14).
The kingdom is the body of the saved, which consists of both the church, and those who have gone on to their eternal home with Him in Heaven, but it is one kingdom.
The first time "Church" appears in the New Testament, it is synonymous with the kingdom. Matthew 16-18-19.
The way one becomes a member of the Kingdom is the same way we become a member of the church. Compare John 3:3-5 and Acts 8:12 with Acts 2:38-47.
Jesus is the ruler of both. Jesus is ruler of the Church just as He is king in the Kingdom-Col.1:18; Eph.1:22; Eph.5:23
While I will not examine this point in detail, there are instances where "kingdom" seems to refer to Heaven, or to those in Heaven. So "kingdom" can refer to the church, or it can refer to Heaven, but it is just one kingdom. The kingdom is the body of the saved, which consists of both those who have gone on to their eternal home, and those who are saved on earth, the church.
What a thrill and a joy to know that we can be co-servants in God’s eternal kingdom along with heroes of faith such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Daniel, Peter, Paul, John, etc.!
Luke1 wrote:
I appreciate your comments. While we obviously disagree on several points, I believe we both are striving as best we can to determine what the inspired Word teaches on this matter. Here are some comments in response to your most recent post above, which I hope you will give consideration.
You wrote:
“If” is exactly right. The land promise, which was fulfilled in Moses and Joshua according to Joshua 21:43-45, was conditional. It was foretold that they would rebel in Deut.31:20-21, which says:If they had heeded to do the commandment and the law which Moses charged them with, they would indeed still have possession of the land. The promise was for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION.
And the result of their rebellion is stated in Deut.32:41-43m which says:20 When I have brought them to the land flowing with milk and honey, of which I swore to their fathers, and they have eaten and filled themselves and grown fat, then they will turn to other gods and serve them; and they will provoke Me and break My covenant. 21 Then it shall be, when many evils and troubles have come upon them, that this song will testify against them as a witness; for it will not be forgotten in the mouths of their descendants, for I know the inclination of their behavior today, even before I have brought them to the land of which I swore to give them.”
Due to their rebellion, they would eventually be destroyed as a nation. The Gentiles would be brought in, and it would no longer be physical Israel, but spiritual Israel who are God’s chosen people.41 If I whet My glittering sword,
And My hand takes hold on judgment,
I will render vengeance to My enemies,
And repay those who hate Me.
42 I will make My arrows drunk with blood,
And My sword shall devour flesh,
With the blood of the slain and the captives,
From the heads of the leaders of the enemy.”’
43 “ Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people;
For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
And render vengeance to His adversaries;
He will provide atonement for His land and His people.”
Luke1 wrote:
Good passage. They were to obey the law. They didn’t, and they were delivered numerous times into captivity as a result, and eventually destroyed as a nation.Joshua 22:5 (KJV) But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Luke1 wrote:
This is a great passage. And the apostle Paul gives us it’s true meaning in Galatians 3, where he says:Genesis 17:7 (KJV) And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an EVERLASTING COVENANT, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:8 (KJV) And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING POSSESSION; and I will be their God.
The seed promise made to Abraham points directly to Christ. Those who have been baptized into Christ are the true heirs of this promise made to Abraham, for we are in Christ and it was Christ that the promise points to.16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”who is Christ. … 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Luke1 wrote:
In a physical sense, yes. But there was both a temporal physical fulfillment, and then the spiritual eternal fulfillment which came through Christ.The promise to the nation of Israel received a primary fulfillment under Joshua's leadership (Josh. 21:45).
Luke1 wrote:
When was this written? This was prior to their seventy years in Babylonian captivity, which Jeremiah prophesied of in chapter 25, and Daniel saw the time of fulfillment had arrived in Daniel 9. At the end of the seventy years, they were delivered out of Babylonian captivity and restored to the land.However, in the future:
"The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess" (Jer. 30:3)
Luke1 wrote:
Again we have referent to Abraham’s seed in whom the promise would ultimately be fulfilled, which is Christ.It has not been fulfilled to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob as yet, but it will be fulfilled just as God promised.
Acts 7:5 (KJV) And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
Luke1 wrote:
And as Jesus and John the Baptist said on numerous occasions, the kingdom was at hand. It has now been established, and the faithful indeed sit down with Abraham Isaac and Jacob, which I hope and expect to do as well after I have put off this earthy tent.Matthew 8:11 (KJV) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Luke1 wrote:
He was indeed promised an earthly land. That promise was fulfilled, as Joshua 21:43-45 make clear. And as Moses’ discourse to Israel in Deuteronomy mentions, especially chapters 31 to the end of the book, the promise as relates to physical Israel was conditional. That again was the physical temporal aspect of the promise, which was a foreshadowing of the ultimate spiritual eternal reality. Hebrews 11:13-16 says:Abraham was promised earthly land, not a heavenly kingdom, however when Christ rules on earth it will be the Kingdom of God.
It seems the Hebrew writer was of the understanding that the ultimate fulfillment was spiritual/heavenly, not physical/earthly.13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
Luke1 wrote:
Your conclusion only follows if the kingdom of God is physical. But what does scripture say? Is the kingdom of God (which again was “at hand” in the first century) physical or spiritual?As concerning the resurrection: "You are in error because you do not know the Scripture or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead-have you not read what God said to you: "I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living" (Matthew 22:29-32)
They must live again through resurrection in the future to receive what the covenant had guaranteed them.
Given this statement, how is it and why is it that the Premillennialists are still looking for an optically discernable kingdom? They are making the same mistake that Jesus corrected the Pharisees for.Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:20-21)
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” (John 18:36)
for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Romans 14:17)
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. (I Corinthians 15:50)
This statement, just like the prophecy of Daniel, affirms the eternal nature of God’s kingdom. It thus cannot be a physical kingdom on earth, for all kingdoms of earth eventually pass away (Daniel 2; Daniel 7; II Cor.4:18Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. (Hebrews 12:28
Another point regarding the nature of the kingdom that is interesting to note is that the phrase “kingdom of Heaven” appears only in Matthew. The “kingdom of Heaven” is the same as the “kingdom of God”. This is seen by the fact that Matthew used the two terms interchangeably in Matthew 19:23-24, and is also seen by comparing all of the gospel accounts. For example, compare Matthew 19:23-24 with Mark 10:23-25 and Matthew 3:2 to Mark 1:15. Why would Matthew frequently use the phrase “kingdom of Heaven”? It is generally recognized by almost all conservative scholars that Matthew is a Jew writing to a Jewish audience, whereas Luke was written to a gentile (Theophilus), and Mark’s audience was most likely gentile as well. It is as if Matthew may be referring to it as the “kingdom of Heaven” to further drive the point home to the Jews that it is a spiritual kingdom.
The kingdom of God is an eternal spiritual kingdom where Christ forever reigns as King, and citizens in the kingdom serve him day in night. That being the case, our warfare is spiritual (Eph.6:12), our sacrifices (in contrast to the premillennial view that there will be physical sacrifices in the rebuilt temple) are spiritual (Rom.12:1; Heb.13:15; Rev.5:8, and our food is spiritual (Heb.5:12-14).
The kingdom is the body of the saved, which consists of both the church, and those who have gone on to their eternal home with Him in Heaven, but it is one kingdom.
The first time "Church" appears in the New Testament, it is synonymous with the kingdom. Matthew 16-18-19.
The way one becomes a member of the Kingdom is the same way we become a member of the church. Compare John 3:3-5 and Acts 8:12 with Acts 2:38-47.
Jesus is the ruler of both. Jesus is ruler of the Church just as He is king in the Kingdom-Col.1:18; Eph.1:22; Eph.5:23
While I will not examine this point in detail, there are instances where "kingdom" seems to refer to Heaven, or to those in Heaven. So "kingdom" can refer to the church, or it can refer to Heaven, but it is just one kingdom. The kingdom is the body of the saved, which consists of both those who have gone on to their eternal home, and those who are saved on earth, the church.
What a thrill and a joy to know that we can be co-servants in God’s eternal kingdom along with heroes of faith such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Daniel, Peter, Paul, John, etc.!
Luke1 wrote:
Good passages. Now please note what the Hebrew writer goes on to say in verses 14-16:Hebrews 11:8-9 (KJV) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Hebrews 11:13 (KJV) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Again, the ultimate fulfillment of the homeland is heavenly. Abraham Isaac and Jacob have entered in to their promised rest through Christ, and through Him and Him alone may we also enter.14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
1000 year reign of Christ
"look from the place where you are, northward, southward, eastward and westward: For the entire land you are looking at I will give to you and to your descendants for ever" (Genesis 13:14, 15). Genesis 13:15 (KJV) For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
"TO THEE will I give it, and to THY SEED for ever. to him and his physical seed.
God commanded Abraham: LOOK from THE PLACE YOU ARE: Abraham used his physical eyes to look. Abraham was standing on physical ground (earth) when his was looking. He is asked to look north, south, east, and west. All these are directional points of the physical earth.
"TO THEE will I give it, and to THY SEED for ever. to him and his physical seed.
God commanded Abraham: LOOK from THE PLACE YOU ARE: Abraham used his physical eyes to look. Abraham was standing on physical ground (earth) when his was looking. He is asked to look north, south, east, and west. All these are directional points of the physical earth.
The promise of the physical land was conditional.
Concerning the land promise, Moses says in Deut 28:8
Luke1, what is your understanding of what the Hebrew writer means when he says of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob "desire a better, that is, a heavenly country"?
You said:
If we are all one in Christ, neither Jew nor Greek, and thus all (who are in Christ) heirs according to the promise, how can we then say that the promise of a physical land is still unto physical Israel? That is a plain contradiction of what Paul says.
Concerning the land promise, Moses says in Deut 28:8
He then goes on to say in verse 11“The LORD will command the blessing on you in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand, and He will bless you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
But then he goes on to say in verses 15-21:And the LORD will grant you plenty of goods, in the fruit of your body, in the increase of your livestock, and in the produce of your ground, in the land of which the LORD swore to your fathers to give you.
Israel was going to be consumed from the land if they did not obey. They were disobedient, and thus it came to pass.15 “But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
16 “Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the country.
17 “Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl.
18 “Cursed shall be the fruit of your body and the produce of your land, the increase of your cattle and the offspring of your flocks.
19 “Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out.
20 “The LORD will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me. 21 The LORD will make the plague cling to you until He has consumed you from the land which you are going to possess.
Luke1, what is your understanding of what the Hebrew writer means when he says of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob "desire a better, that is, a heavenly country"?
You said:
In quoting, you put "TO THEE" and "THY SEED" in all caps, for emphasis. Obviously these are words you feel need attention. So let's give some attention to "THY SEED". What does Paul say about this in Galatians 3?TO THEE will I give it, and to THY SEED
What is your understanding of this?16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,”who is Christ. … 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
If we are all one in Christ, neither Jew nor Greek, and thus all (who are in Christ) heirs according to the promise, how can we then say that the promise of a physical land is still unto physical Israel? That is a plain contradiction of what Paul says.