What is Hades?

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JSM17
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What is Hades?

Post by JSM17 » Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:14 pm

What is Hades, is it hell, is it paradise?

Did Christ decend into hell like some denominations (Lutherans) teach?

Did Christ ascend into heaven when He died?

When Christ told the thief on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise", what did He mean by that?

Do we go straight to hell or heaven when we die?
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

JSM17
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Post by JSM17 » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:31 pm

Let me get us started with this thought:

John 20:16-17
17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
NASU


Christ died and told the thief on the cross that today you will be with me in paradise, yet notice here in the context of John 20 that Jesus tells mary that He has not ascended into heaven to the Father yet, so were did He go, did he go to hell?
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

Jarrod
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Post by Jarrod » Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:15 pm

A proper understanding of Hades is extremely difficult (if not next to impossible) due to the following:

1-Many of the passages that speak of Hades are in Revelation, so a proper understanding of Revelation is helpful, if not essential, to understand Hades. Obviously this is a challenge, so I would hesitate to express my views on Hades until first walking through my views of Revelation, which is a long drawn out deep and detailed ordeal. (My view is that it was written during the reign of Roman Emperor Nero, and speaks primarily to Jerusalem's destruction in 70 A.D. This understanding when seen with the rest of the book and the rest of scripture has effected my understanding of Hades.)

2-We are speaking here of something that, if it exists at all, is not in this world. It is a realm between this life and eternity. When we get into things out of this life like that, getting a proper understanding is extremely tough.

3-We have to also understand the historical context of the passages that speak about Hades. The New Testament was written during the days of the Roman Empire, and Hades was a common theme of the afterlife in Greco-Roman philosophy. Not that the scriptures teach the same thing. They don't. And not that the scriptures relied on such teachings. Certainly not. But the New Testament was written within a certain historical context that makes certain things difficult to understand without that historical context, and the thoughts/beliefs/ideas that were present at that time.

4-The Old Testament word used is Sheol. Sheol is the Hebrew equivalent of the Greek term Hades. So a proper understanding of Hades requires us digging into the Old Testament, and what it says about Sheol. And just as Hades is spoken of much in Revelation, Sheol too is often found in very difficult to understand passages.

5-Even outside of Revelation, the mention of Hades in the New Testament is often within challeging passages that deal with eschatology, which is one of (if not the) most challenging of all the "ologies" to understand. Soteriology, Ecclesiology, and others are much easier.

With all that being said, I am hesitant to express my views of Hades without first going into a very very long rant about my views of Revelation, Eschatology, various Old Testament passages, etc. I will say that I believe that scripture teaches that such a place did exist. I say "did exist" because I believe it has now served it's purpose and has been destroyed, and when we die we go directly to our eternal home in Heaven or Hell. (Hades is not Hell. The Old King James translated it that way, but the New King James and most other versions correct this).

So, how's that for opening a can of worms? ;-) I'll stop there until seeing further comments and questions.

truth
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Post by truth » Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:07 pm

What is Hades, is it hell, is it paradise?the word hades translates into the word hell and Hades refers to the common grave of mankind. not to be confused with gehena ( something completely different)

Did Christ decend into hell like some denominations (Lutherans) teach? only in so much as he was placed there by Joseph of Arimathea

Did Christ ascend into heaven when He died? when he died, no ,after he was resurrected he did , he was dead for 3 days body & spirit

When Christ told the thief on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise", what did He mean by that?

what you said or should i say the way you said it it found in Luke 23 :43 it reads "And he said to him: "Truly I tell you today , You will be with me in Paradise." Jesus was not going to be in paradise that very day and nether was the man.
Jesus was referring to a time in the future well after his kingdom was established here on earth , yet in the future.

Do we go straight to hell or heaven when we die? when you die your dead , your body is placed in a grave (hell) there
the dead wait to be resurrected ,brought back to life

JSM17
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Post by JSM17 » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:25 am

Four times in the book of Revelation "Hades" is used by John. Each time it is coupled with thanatos "death" (cf. Rev. 1:18; 6:8). Two of these occurrences are of special eschatological importance. In Rev. 20:13, the record says, "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man according to their works." Here we finf the emptying of Hades prior to the judgment (cf. vv. 11-15). Verse 14 adds, "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

The Hadean realm is to be destroyed in the lake of fire, which corresponds to "the lake which burns with fire and brimstone" wherein the wicked are confined after judgment (Rev. 21:8) Into this lake, the beast and false prophet of the apocalypse-the persecuting powers and false religious hierarchy of the Roman Empire- are "cast alive" (19:20). It corresponds also to the "Second death," spiritual and eternal seperation from God. This stands in contrast to those who remain faithful to God "unto death" (Rev. 2:10, 11)

The promised "Crown" is to be given at the coming of Christ. It thus contemplates reward in Heaven. Terefore, the second death must mean Gehenna. The lake of fire contemplates the fire and condition of things therein. It thus does not mean nor refer to hades. Therefore, hades is not Gehenna! Nor is hades a part of Gehenna, as Hades is pictured as being cast into Gehenna and destroyed.

The word is used a total of 11 times in the New Testament and the word Sheol is used about 18 times in the O.T.
If we are going to undersatnd these words today we need to undertand the history and the use contextually in each case, which I agree with Jarrod, this takes along time to do. As it is studied it can be understood this way:

It has been shown through scholars that the words Sheol, Hades are one in the same. Daniel Denhard makes this observation: “It thus will be observed that this is the basic understanding of the word “Hades” shortly before and during the time of Christ and the Apostles. It was the generally accepted definition of the word to apply it to the abode of the departed spirits. One would expect that the word in the N.T. would correspond to the accepted and customary use of the word in contemporary Jewish thought”!

Hades “the region of departed spirits of the lost" (but including the blessed dead in periods preceding the ascension of Christ). It has been thought by some that the word etymologically (Which means that from its historical root, EMPHISIS MINE JSM) meant "the unseen" (from a, negative, and eido, "to see"), but this derivation is questionable; a more probable derivation is from hado, signifying "all-receiving." It corresponds to "Sheol" in the OT. In the KJV of the OT and NT; it has been unhappily rendered "hell," e. g., Ps 16:10; or "the grave," e. g., Gen 37:35; or "the pit," Num 16:30,33; in the NT the revisers have always used the rendering "hades"; in the OT, they have not been uniform in the translation, e. g. in Isa 14:15 "hell" (marg., "Sheol"); usually they have "Sheol" in the text and "the grave" in the margin. It never denotes the grave, nor is it the permanent region of the lost; in point of time it is, for such, intermediate between decease and the doom of Gehenna. For the condition, see Luke 16:23-31.(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

I do not agree with "Truth" on the idea that "Hades" means grave in the sense of burial of the body, your soul does not remain in the grave with your body does it?

This brings me back to the motivation of the post: Where did Jesus go when His spirit left His body, remember this was before He was placed into the tomb. Death demand that the spirit leave the body, or that the spirit leaves the body demand that death has occured. (cf. James)

I deny that Jesus was talking about some future event when He told the thief that "Today you will be with me in paradise". This is plain speaking and does not merit some hidden meaning of future events that we do not understand, I believe that when Jesus was saying this He meant it.

When we put all the evidence together it is much easier to understand these ideas, until we look at the prominant pictures of Hades given to us we cannot fully understand "Hades".

The most complete picture of Hades is given in Luke 16:19-31. I hope we can all agree that this is not a parable and that this story has validity in understanding the realm of the departed spirits. This is a historical event that helps us understand this place.

I will wait on responses before moving forward.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

Jarrod
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Post by Jarrod » Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:45 am

Good thoughts JSM17. I like the quote from Daniel Denhard, and think it does put us in the right historical context. Unless we find something in the text indicating that the word should be understood otherwise, it is best to conclude that it means exactly what the original audience would have understood it to mean.

I thought it was interesting that truth rendered Luke 23:43 in such a way that Jesus was telling the theif that day what would happen, but not that it would happen that day. I just checked teh KJV, NKJV, NASB, YLT, and even NIV, and they all render the verse in such a way that has Jesus saying that He and the theif would be together in Paradise that very day. Truth, what translation were you using?

JSM17 says his motivation for posting this is "Where did Jesus go when His spirit left His body, remember this was before He was placed into the tomb." Peter says of Christ in Acts 2:31 "His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption." So there is a distinction made here between the place of the body and the place of the soul. Hades is (or was) to the soul what the physical grave is to the body.

Jesus said he would be in paradise after he died.
Peter said he was in Hades.
Then in Luke 16:23, the rich man is in Hades.

So we have Hades as a place where Jesus, the theif, and the rich man all went. But only Jesus and the theif are said to be in paradise. I believe this shows that paradise was a realm of Hades-the realm where righteous souls went.

As for Luke 16, I don't know that we are all going to agree that this is not a parable. I have gone back and forth, and currently agree with you here, but even if it is a parable, Jesus never taught an untruth, be it in a parable or elsewhere.

Jarrod
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Post by Jarrod » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:07 pm

And don't you hate how when you type 8 followed by ) you get Mr. Joe Cool. 8)

truth
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Post by truth » Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:12 pm

JSM17 if i may ask please ,do you believe the is going to be a resurrection of the dead ?
Rev. 20:13, says, "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hades delivered up the dead which were in them;

, "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
I'm sure you've herd that men have been berried at sea , the sea is there grave . for the sea to give them up means that they are resurrected ,brought back to life, they live again.

"and death and hades delivered up the dead which were in them";
death will be done away with , the dead that are in there graves they to will be resurrected , they will live again.

you ask what happens to the sprite. i will liken it to the flame on a candle . wile the flame burns the candle is alive , when the flame is snuffed out, were does the flame go ? it go's no were ,its done . the candle is waiting for the flame to be restored . the same is true of man or beast, when the life gos out of the body , its dead . for man ,God has said he will restore that life to man .

were are the dead ? right were we put them ,in the grave. they dont go any were ,they dont do any thing, they dont know nor are they aware were they are .
. Ecclesiastes 9: 5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.

10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.

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Post by grand_puba » Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:28 pm

Jarrod wrote:And don't you hate how when you type 8 followed by ) you get Mr. Joe Cool. 8)
Two ways to resolve this:
  1. put a space, " ", between the 8 and the )
  2. While you are creating (or editing) your post, check the "Disable Smilies in this post" option
Don't forget, you can always "edit" an existing post, just to check that box and turn off the smilies, even if Joe is cool. ;-) Just click on the "edit" button in the top right of your post, assuming you are already logged in, check the option, and then punch "Submit" to update your post. Of course, you can only edit your own posts... :-)
Have you read the Rules?

JSM17
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Post by JSM17 » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:41 pm

I do believe there will be a resurrection of the dead.

Truth said:
you ask what happens to the sprite. i will liken it to the flame on a candle . wile the flame burns the candle is alive , when the flame is snuffed out, were does the flame go ? it go's no were ,its done . the candle is waiting for the flame to be restored . the same is true of man or beast, when the life gos out of the body , its dead . for man ,God has said he will restore that life to man .
So you think the spirit is like the flame on a candle, when it burns out it goes nowhere?

I am not sure if your analogy is sufficient for the purpose of describing what happens to the spirit of man or by any means the spirit of Christ when they die. I will opt to at least use srcipture to make the case for what happens to the soul when it is seperated from the body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 states that the spirit will return to God who gave it

We can at least conclude that it goes somewhere, as it is not like the flame of a candle that just disappears.

Again the root of the post is what is hades in conjunction with where Jesus' Spirit went when He died before He was placed into the tomb.

Jarrod makes a great point about Peter's sermon on Pentecost, notice what he said about our Lords soul not being left somewhere, where was in not going to be left, in Hades i.e. Paradise with the thief and Abraham( Luke 16)

To Truth for the sake of argument of whether or not Hades and Sheol mean grave I introduce this argument:

Genesis 37:35, Jacob says, "...For I will go down to Sheol unto my son mourning." The KJV renders the word here as "the grave." However, the evident connection is with a place wherein Jacobexpected to be reunited with his beloved son Joseph after death. Remember, Jacob had been led to believe that Joseph had been torn and devoured by a wild beast!

He therefore doesnot have reference to a tomb: for Joseph had not been buried, nor does the elderly patriarch assume as much. Yet he avers that in Sheol they would be united!

Are we to assume that he thought that he would be reunited in the grave with him like a flame of a candle?

He believed that he would be in the place of departed spirits. If the soul is eternal how can it be said that when you die your soul is like a flame of a candle, the flame is not eternal but the soul is.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

truth
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Post by truth » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:03 pm

So you think the spirit is like the flame on a candle, when it burns out it goes nowhere?

I am not sure if your analogy is sufficient for the purpose of describing what happens to the spirit of man or by any means the spirit of Christ when they die. I will opt to at least use srcipture to make the case for what happens to the soul when it is seperated from the body. Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls-to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son-to me they belong. The soul that is sinning-it itself will die.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 states that the spirit will return to God who gave it

We can at least conclude that it goes somewhere, as it is not like the flame of a candle that just disappears.

actually life is just that fleeting , much like the power that is used to light your home . flip a switch the circuit is alive you have lights,flip the switch and the circuit is dead ,no lights, no life. the certain are drawn the lights are off the doors are locked , no ones home. until God turns the power back on the dead body is just an empty vessels.Again the root of the post is what is hades in conjunction with where Jesus' Spirit went when He died before He was placed into the tomb.

Jarrod makes a great point about Peter's sermon on Pentecost, notice what he said about our Lords soul not being left somewhere, where was in not going to be left, in Hades i.e. Paradise with the thief and Abraham( Luke 16)

To Truth for the sake of argument of whether or not Hades and Sheol mean grave I introduce this argument:

Genesis 37:35, Jacob says, "...For I will go down to Sheol unto my son mourning." The KJV renders the word here as "the grave." However, the evident connection is with a place wherein Jacobexpected to be reunited with his beloved son Joseph after death. Remember, Jacob had been led to believe that Joseph had been torn and devoured by a wild beast!
jacob was saying that he would morn till the day he died , it greaved him that much. he was looking forward to the day he would die ,as then , his greavence would then end.
Ecclesiastes 9: 5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.


He therefore doesnot have reference to a tomb: for Joseph had not been buried, nor does the elderly patriarch assume as much. Yet he avers that in Sheol they would be united!
to a tomb , no . sheol and hades refers to the place of distruction were the body pudtafies decayes in time turns to dust. for Jonah, it was in the belly of a fish 2:1 Then Jo´nah prayed to Jehovah his God from the inward parts of the fish 2 and said:
"Out of my distress I called out to Jehovah, and he proceeded to answer me.
Out of the belly of She´ol I cried for help.
You heard my voice.

Are we to assume that he thought that he would be reunited in the grave with him like a flame of a candle?no, they will remain in the grave untill god gives the call for them to be resarected back to life

He believed that he would be in the place of departed spirits. If the soul is eternal how can it be said that when you die your soul is like a flame of a candle, the flame is not eternal but the soul is.
a commen miss consepsion is that the soul does not die however . ezk 18:4 ..........The soul that is sinning-it itself will die. in light of this the evadence the soul is not eternal_________________
Mark 16:16-17
16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
NASU

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JSM17
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Post by JSM17 » Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:00 am

What is Hades, is it hell, is it paradise?

Did Christ decend into hell like some denominations (Lutherans) teach?

Did Christ ascend into heaven when He died?

When Christ told the thief on the cross that "today you will be with me in paradise", what did He mean by that?

Do we go straight to hell or heaven when we die?
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

Journey
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Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:58 pm

Post by Journey » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:17 pm

Never thought about Jesus and his spirit leaving his body. Jump from His death to His resurrected life. Agree the moment Jesus died his spirit did leave His body. If Jesus spirit went to hades/paradise, than his body remained in the grave or tomb? What happened than to Jesus' body? On the third day God raised Jesus body from the dead (grave or tomb) to be united with Jesus spirit?

What do you do with the verse that He (Jesus) descended, in Eph. 4:9......

Journey

JSM17
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Post by JSM17 » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:59 pm

Eph 4:9-10

9(Now this, "He ascended" -- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?10 He who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
NKJV

I am sure that we can agree that when Paul stated that Christ ascended, he is speaking of when Christ went into heaven (see verse 8). When we look at the statement he first descended into the lower parts of earth, we must understand what this means in scripture.

Note: Psalms 63:9 But those who seek my life, to destroy it,
Shall go into the lower parts of the earth.
NKJV


Certainly it seems that these would go to a place that is not so good, but also notice that the scripture does not say hell.

When Jesus descended are we to think that He decended physically or spiritually?

I do not hold to the thought that Jesus went into Hell as some teach, but He said to the thief that He would be with Him in Paradise.

And then from John 20:17 we learn that Jesus had not ascended into heaven yet, so then if He decended and if hell is to be unlocked in the future as rev. proclaims and Christ had not gone into Heaven yet were did He decend to according to Ephesians 4:9?
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

Journey
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:58 pm

Post by Journey » Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:36 pm

Dear JSM17:

Let me see what you might think on this. Jesus is God, belongs to the God head, was with God. Jesus was with God the Father, and Holy Spirit when the earth was created and had a part in the creation. Jesus "first descended" in the sense of coming to be born in the womb of Mary, by the Holy Spirit. "Lower parts of the earth", it definitely was lower than heaven, a very humble place than what He was use to and totally different conditions.

Ps. 63:9 "Shall go into the lower parts of the earth. They shall fall by the sword." Wonder if David here is merely speaking of their death, for Christians are not to judge those who die. In that sense "lower parts of the earth" here also would be a humbling experience and totally different conditions.

God Bless,

Journey

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