no hell? no eternal punishment?

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no hell? no eternal punishment?

Post by email » Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:37 pm

My question concerns the total lack of the mention of eternal torment in the Old Testament. Adam and Eve were never threatened with eternal punishment, nor was Cain, or was eternal punishment ever mentioned during the time of Noah. If eternal punishment were a fact, the O.T. should be replete with warnings. Paul wrote 13 books of the N.T., without ever mentioning eternal punishment. It might surprise you to know that eternal punishment was not taught for the first 500 years of church history. It was began by Augustine.

God told Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would die. Satan said you will not surely die. After 500 years, the church is preaching Satan's lie.
The above presented views do not necessarily represent any specific individual, registered on this forum or otherwise.
Who is "email"?

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Post by JSM17 » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:23 pm

Lets dust this one off and dig in.


Rom 5:12-17

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned --13(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.)
NKJV

I would like to make this as simple as possible:

Death passed onto all men because all men sin, this death has to be spiritual death, because within the context Christ makes us alive, how does He do this, He makes us spirtually alive because when we sin we spiritually die!

What happens when we die spiritually, we are seperated from God, which is punishment, the soul is eternal, the soul which is sperated from God is eternally seperated from God. This applies to all mankind, notice that PAUL is talking about ADAM and everyone in between.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

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Post by truth » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:41 am

no ................email nailed it.
all the ideas of living on after death came from paganism,Satan is the one that backs up them kind of ideas.
the bible shows that when your dead your dead.you can only be tormented if your alive and death is one of the worst tormentors there is . you know is coming, its going to get you ,its just a matter of time and your no more.
did you know A name is better than good oil, and the day of death than the day of one's being born.

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Post by JSM17 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:14 am

I am not sure what school of reasoning that you and "E-mail" have gone to, but your both out there in left field on this one. Not only are the thoughts speculative, there un reasonable, and you have no scripture to back it up all you have is a thought and some hope about a candle and a flame, in which you cannot hold up to the wind, so to speak.

How about some scripture, did you read the post made by our anonymous friend? Did you read my post? Do you understand what we are saying? Maybe I do not understand both of you, because it seems to me that you are saying that the soul is not eternal, but maybe I do not understand the concepts that you and "e-mail" are laying before everyone to see.

I do not see the proof of the truth so to speak and I do not see how this "idea" plays in the role of all other truth, maybe you could help us better understand you points.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

truth
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Post by truth » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:43 am

JSM17 wrote:I am not sure what school of reasoning that you and "E-mail" have gone to, but your both out there in left field on this one. Not only are the thoughts speculative, there un reasonable, and you have no scripture to back it up all you have is a thought and some hope about a candle and a flame, in which you cannot hold up to the wind, so to speak.

How about some scripture, did you read the post made by our anonymous friend? Did you read my post? Do you understand what we are saying? Maybe I do not understand both of you, because it seems to me that you are saying that the soul is not eternal, but maybe I do not understand the concepts that you and "e-mail" are laying before everyone to see.

I do not see the proof of the truth so to speak and I do not see how this "idea" plays in the role of all other truth, maybe you could help us better understand you points.

The question that comes to mind is ,do you know what a soul is? the Scriptures show "soul" to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys.
Genesis 1:20-23. "'Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls [ne´phesh] and let flying creatures fly over the earth . . . ' And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul [ne´phesh] that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind.the exact same word for soul ne'phesh and psykhe all so is used with reference to man.
genesis 2:7 And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.

The difficulty that i think your having lies in the fact that the meanings popularly attached to the English word "soul" comes, not from the Hebrew or Christian Greek Scriptures, but from ancient Greek philosophy, Greek philosopher Plato, for example, quotes Socrates as saying: "The soul, . . . if it departs pure, dragging with it nothing of the body, . . . goes away into that which is like itself, into the invisible, divine, immortal, and wise, and when it arrives there it is happy, freed from error and folly and fear . . . and all the other human ills, and . . . lives in truth through all after time with the gods."-Phaedo, 80, D, E; 81, A.

the Greek teaching of the psy·khe´ (soul) as being immaterial, intangible, invisible, and immortal, the Scriptures show that both psy·khe´ and ne´phesh, as used with reference to earthly creatures, refer to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal.
i under stand your misconception, your trying to mix two things together, pagan and the truth of scripture.
BTW I'm not playing left out ,I'm playing right in the center. Satan came up with the lie that man will not die. any one that listens to Satan believes a lie.

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Post by JSM17 » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:18 pm

I think "e-mail" main point here is the idea that people do not believe they will die. According to scripture that is given it seems as though one has to ask how Adam and eve died, if they ate from the tree then they would die. When would they die, right then, after several hundred years, or maybe it was a spiritual death?

I do not deny that I will die, I do not believe that the bible teaches that the SOUL dies, death is a sepreation of body and SPIRIT according to James, this defines death for us, it is a seperation, when we die spiritually we are seperarted from God.

Adam and Eve did not die physically the day that they sinned, they died spiritually, I already showed how in connection with Roman 5 how it must mean spiritual, not physical.

So maybe your right about one thing, I am confused about what really you guys are talking about, because Gen. account of Adam and Eve shows us two free willed people choosing to die spiritually to be put out of paradise, to be spiritually seperated from God.

Why don't you explain for me the concepts of no punishment, total destuction with out any conscient knowledge of judgement.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

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Post by truth » Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:08 pm

spiritual death is some thing completely different, than the physical death of the body(soul).
Adam was told not to do something , he was told that if he did what he was told not to do that he would die. he did eat, from that time on his prospects of living on and on ended.
he was not dead spiritually ,for he still honored god and received many blessings, there is nothing to indicate other wise. no doubt Adam had seen animals die he would have to under stand the disadvantages of being dead when compared to being alive.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.
6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.
7 Go, eat your food with rejoicing and drink your wine with a good heart, because already the [true] God has found pleasure in your works.
8 On every occasion let your garments prove to be white, and let oil not be lacking upon your head.
9 See life with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life that He has given you under the sun, all the days of your vanity, for that is your portion in life and in your hard work with which you are working hard under the sun.
10 All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She´ol, the place to which you are going.
gen 2:7 And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.
please note "he became a living soul" he was at that instent of time a living ,breathing person.when he died all of him died.


Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls-to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son-to me they belong. The soul that is sinning-it itself will die.

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Post by JSM17 » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:27 pm

Romans 5:12 "12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.."

continuing to verse 17 where we learn what type of death occured to Adam upon sinning:

"17 For if by the transression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who received the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ"

It is spiritual life therefore it is spiritual death, study the context please, if that is not enough then follow into verse 18:

"18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through on act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men"

Do these passages teach that one lives forever physically? No, THEN IT MUST BE SPIRITUAL!

Why in the world would God give us life eternal then destroy us? I think the problem is with the understanding of things spiritual and things physical.

This is just a result of a man's doctrine forcing him to outlandish claims that are not fully articulated from ALL the evidence about our eternal state.

To declare the things in which you have declared you deny the plain bible teaching of our Lord.

Luke 16:19-31 pictures for us a conscious state after death, was Jesus just telling us stories and using real people to make His point?

please answer the argument from Romans 5 which clearly state the condition of Adam for use.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

truth
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Post by truth » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:53 pm

Romans 5:12 "12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned.."

continuing to verse 17 where we learn what type of death occurred to Adam upon sinning:

"17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who received the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ" it is because of the ransom sacrifice that Jesus paid ,he purchased man kind with his blood. there is coming a time when death will be removed ,done away with. Rev: 14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. after death and the grave are done away with will the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness comes in to play
It is spiritual life therefore it is spiritual death, study the context please, if that is not enough then follow into verse 18:

"18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men,yes because Adam sinned which put him in an imperfect state, that which came from him was all so imperfect and subject to deatheven so through on act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men" which Jesus 's blood did

Do these passages teach that one lives forever physically? No,true for now ,but not in that which is to come
Why in the world would God give us life eternal then destroy us? I think the problem is with the understanding of things spiritual and things physical. we do not yet have eternal life and even if we did and we refused to obey we would be put out of existence.
This is just a result of a man's doctrine forcing him to outlandish claims that are not fully articulated from ALL the evidence about our eternal state.

To declare the things in which you have declared you deny the plain bible teaching of our Lord.

Luke 16:19-31 pictures for us a conscious state after death, was Jesus just telling us stories and using real people to make His point? no this is only a parable were he is trying to illustrate a pointplease answer the argument from Romans 5 which clearly state the condition of Adam for use.
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16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
i have to wonder why it is you keep to your own under standing when your ideas contradict scripture.

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Post by JSM17 » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:38 pm

That is an interesting statement that you ended with, you take about the blood of Christ, do you even believe that Jesus is God?

And what is your proof that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, because of your doctrine you have to declare that this is just a fictional story or else you would have to change you beliefs. Prove that it is a parable, it does not meet any of the characteristics of any other parables.

In fact after you respond I will come back and prove that it is NOT a parable then I can say:
i have to wonder why it is you keep to your own under standing when your ideas contradict scripture.
If the soul is the body, why does Jesus make a distinction between the body and the soul in Mt 10:28?

If the spirit of a man has no existence apart from the body, why does Stephen just before his death in Acts 7:59, pray to Jesus to "receive my spirit"? How could Jesus receive Stephen's spirit if a man's spirit ceases to exist when the body dies?

In Rev 14:13, how can the dead be "happy" and find "rest" if there is no conscious awareness after death?

If the soul dies when the body dies, how could the "souls" of Rev 6:9- 11, who were of those who had been "slaughtered" (i.e., killed), cry out "with a loud voice, saying: 'Until when Sovereign Lord ..."?
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

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Post by truth » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:56 pm

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is an interesting statement that you ended with, you take about the blood of Christ, do you even believe that Jesus is God? is Jesus god no and neither do you believe that he is . the bible is replete with scripture that sayes that Jesus is the son of god,that Jesus is the mediator between god and man,Jesus said that only god is good ,Jesus said god is greater than he ,Jesus said worship the father. it was because god gave Jesus the power and authority to do the things that he did do makes him responsible to god the father. no Jesus is not god for even Jesus answers to a higher authority.
And what is your proof that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable, because of your doctrine you have to declare that this is just a fictional story or else you would have to change you beliefs. Prove that it is a parable, it does not meet any of the characteristics of any other parables.

In fact after you respond I will come back and prove that it is NOT a parable then I can say:
Quote:
i have to wonder why it is you keep to your own under standing when your ideas contradict scripture. so you want to believe its not a parable. well then lets look at the ABSURDITIES

in this illustration we first read of a rich man clothed in purple and fine linen who lived in magnificence and of a beggar named Lazarus who sat at his gate, full of ulcers, and who craved the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Each in course of time died. Lazarus was taken by angels to recline upon Abraham's bosom whereas the rich man was buried, and in Hades suffered torment and from which place he saw Lazarus.-Luke 16:19-23, NW.

Note here that not one word is said about Lazarus' having been a good man, about his having had faith and proving it by works; both of which are indispensable to gaining everlasting life. (Heb. 11:6; Jas. 2:14-26) When are mere wretchedness, poverty and disease a guarantee of salvation?

Neither is there a word about the rich man's having been wicked. By what kind of reasoning and by what principles of justice can it be maintained that simply because a man enjoyed the good things of this life to the full for threescore years and ten he must suffer the agonies of a burning hell for billions times billions of years, yes, for eternity? Even fallen, imperfect man appreciates that justice requires that "the punishment fit the crime," and certainly God is more just than man. Abraham, David, Solomon, Joseph of Arimathea, all had great wealth; does that fact doom them to eternal torment?

Further, Jesus in his arguments with the Jewish clergy evinced a fine sense of logic, second to none. Would he give such a dire warning on the wages of sin and not even mention sin, or tell of the rewards of faith and obedience and not even mention them? Had Jesus meant to warn his listeners about eternal torment he certainly would have stressed these points; but he did nothing of the kind.

Not only that, but we read that Lazarus was carried off to Abraham's bosom. Are all those gaining salvation reclining on Abraham's bosom? If we grant that this expression is a figure of speech, why insist that what befell the rich man be taken literally? It simply does not make sense to take one part of the account literally and another parallel part figuratively.

Further note that this is the only place in the Scriptures where consciousness and suffering are associated with Hades. Nor will it do to claim that before Jesus' death Hades had two compartments, one for the good and the other for the wicked, and that after he died for man's sin then the good went to heaven, for at the time Jesus spoke this illustration he had not yet died. That Hades is used figuratively is apparent from Revelation 6:8, 9, where Hades is shown as riding horseback, and also at Revelation 20:14, where Hades is shown-not as being the lake of fire-but as being itself cast into the lake of fire.


If the soul is the body, why does Jesus make a distinction between the body and the soul in Mt 10:28?
Matthew 10:28: "Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." While men can kill the body, they cannot kill the person for all time, inasmuch as he lives in God's purpose (compare Lu 20:37, 38 ) and God can and will restore such faithful one to life as a creature by means of a resurrection. For God's servants, the loss of their "soul," or life as a creature, is only temporary, not permanent.
If the spirit of a man has no existence apart from the body, why does Stephen just before his death in Acts 7:59, pray to Jesus to "receive my spirit"? How could Jesus receive Stephen's spirit if a man's spirit ceases to exist when the body dies? in a round about way of saying remember me, remember my life ,he hoped in god and Jesus that he would be there in that which was to come, the kingdom .you may have prayed for it your self," let your kingdom come " this kingdom or government will replace all other governments here on earth in which even the dead will be restored to life. this is were Stephen wanted to be , to be alive and apart of that kingdom .
In Rev 14:13, how can the dead be "happy" and find "rest" if there is no conscious awareness after death? true a dead person can not be happy ,but a living person can. a living person knows he will die and if he has done all that he can to please god he goes into death happy and well satisfied . Jesus likened death to sleep in the sleep of death we rest until awakened buy our resurrection back to life.

If the soul dies when the body dies, how could the "souls" of Rev 6:9- 11, who were of those who had been "slaughtered" (i.e., killed), cry out "with a loud voice, saying: 'Until when Sovereign Lord ..."?
please remember your reading from the book of revaluation its a book of signs and can not be taken literally.
for the souls to be crying out is not literal but that so many have died in such an unworthily way, at the hands of the persecutors of the truth.
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16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

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Post by sledford » Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:09 pm

truth wrote:so you want to believe its not a parable. well then lets look at the ABSURDITIES

in this illustration we first read of a rich man clothed in purple and fine linen who lived in magnificence and of a beggar named Lazarus who sat at his gate, full of ulcers, and who craved the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Each in course of time died. Lazarus was taken by angels to recline upon Abraham's bosom whereas the rich man was buried, and in Hades suffered torment and from which place he saw Lazarus.-Luke 16:19-23, NW.

Note here that not one word is said about Lazarus' having been a good man, about his having had faith and proving it by works; both of which are indispensable to gaining everlasting life. (Heb. 11:6; Jas. 2:14-26) When are mere wretchedness, poverty and disease a guarantee of salvation?

Neither is there a word about the rich man's having been wicked. By what kind of reasoning and by what principles of justice can it be maintained that simply because a man enjoyed the good things of this life to the full for threescore years and ten he must suffer the agonies of a burning hell for billions times billions of years, yes, for eternity? Even fallen, imperfect man appreciates that justice requires that "the punishment fit the crime," and certainly God is more just than man. Abraham, David, Solomon, Joseph of Arimathea, all had great wealth; does that fact doom them to eternal torment?

Further, Jesus in his arguments with the Jewish clergy evinced a fine sense of logic, second to none. Would he give such a dire warning on the wages of sin and not even mention sin, or tell of the rewards of faith and obedience and not even mention them? Had Jesus meant to warn his listeners about eternal torment he certainly would have stressed these points; but he did nothing of the kind.
Is it absolutely necessary to say what the Rich man FAILED to do is sin in the recounting of it by Jesus? Is that not already obvious from other passages such as easy to understand COMMANDS concerning the poor under the Old Law:
Deut 15:11 wrote:Deu 15:11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land. Therefore, I command you saying, You shall open your hand wide to your brother, to your poor, and to your needy, in your land.
and then Jesus emphasizes the importance of this very point here:
Matt 25:34-46 wrote:Mat 25:34 Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in;
Mat 25:36 I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You? Or thirsty, and gave You drink?
Mat 25:38 When did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You?
Mat 25:39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you have done it to Me.
Mat 25:41 Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry, and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me no drink;
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in; I was naked, and you did not clothe Me; I was sick, and in prison, and you did not visit me.
Mat 25:44 Then they will also answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?
Mat 25:45 Then He shall answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Your reasoning and logic is flawed in saying these things are markers that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable.

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Post by JSM17 » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:58 am

1. Neither the Lord nor any NT chronicler refer to it as a parable. The Lord's treatment of it, on the contrary, have all the marks of an account which is to be given historical credibility.

2. Abraham, who is part of the account, is real, historical figure, and undoubtedly, the rich man and Lazarus are to be viewed in the same CONTEXT.

3. The entire scene concerned matters outside the daily experience of the disciples, and does not use the earthly, mundane events of the Eastern life familiar to them, as is common in parabolic teaching elsewhere in the scriptures and in Jewish literature. It does not fit the tried and true definition of a parable as "an earthly story with a heavenly meaning".

4. The scene, on the other hand, does correspond closely with the general understanding of the abode of the dead then current among the Jews.

5. The use of other figures of speech within the text itself indicate that it was not to be understood as a parable. Such expressions as Lazarus being "full of sores" in verse 20, et. all make it unlikely that the Lord would further shroud the meaning of the lesson behind a greater veil of imagery and mystery. This is not typical of the parables.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

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Post by truth » Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:50 pm

the first thing to ask and to call into question is your line of thinking contradict scripture in any way shape or form?
for insentience i can show scripture which says the soul dies , that the dead know nothing(psalm 146:4), that it is to be better to be a living dog then to be a dead lion(Ecclesiastes 9:4, 5 ), that death is the penalty for sin(Ezekiel 18:4 )
,
do you not know that death is the enemy.? its the one thing that we fear more than any thing . one of the reasons why the blood of Jesus is so important is that because of it the dead will live again John 11:25 Jesus said to her: "I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;
is it not a far,far better thing to know that the dead will live again ? if you were to die and go to heaven and then to be told that you have to leave heaven ,that you will have to live on earth and never die , don't you think you would be a little up set , if heaven is that great why would you want to leave it ?you wouldn't ! death is just as the dictionary explains it

Main Entry: death
Pronunciation: 'deth
Function: noun

1 a : a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life

it is a far better thing to know that the dead are considered by god to be sleeping in death, unconscious of were they are.
not being tortured in fire nor any thing that is pictured in the pagan beliefs of misguided man kind.
the bible is really very simple to under stand , it only gets cloudy when miss concepts taken from false religion are mixed in and the under standing of it becomes blurry.

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Post by JSM17 » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:44 pm

What does death involve? This terminal human experience can be a frightening prospect indeed if one is unprepared for it. Study this issue with us in this week’s Penpoints segment.

When the writer of Psalms exclaimed: ”. . . the terrors of death are fallen upon me. Fearfulness and trembling are come upon me. And horror has overwhelmed me” (Psa. 55:4-5), he expressed the sentiments of vast multitudes who have faced the prospect of death. Bildad, Job’s friend, characterized death as the “king of terrors” (Job 18:14). And the writer of Hebrews spoke of those “who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage” (Heb. 2:15).

Though few of us may reach that plateau of faith where we might say, along with Paul, that we desire to die (Phil. 1:23), certainly with the illumination of the New Testament revelation we can face the mysteries of death with calmer spirits. What is the biblical view of death?

The Sleep of Death
Death is a sleep. The New Testament speaks of them “that are fallen asleep in Jesus” (1 Thes. 4:14). The term “sleep” is used in the Scriptures to describe the state of the body in death. Only the body of man sleeps in death. This is revealed in Daniel 12:2 where the dead are described as those who “sleep in the dust of the earth.” Here, it is obvious that:



The part of man that is placed in the dust of the earth is that which sleeps.
But it is man’s body that is placed in the earth.
Thus, it is the body that sleeps in death, not the spirit.

In the New Testament the word “asleep” is the Greek koimaomai, which is from keimai, literally meaning “to lie down.” The Greeks used the word koimeterion of a place where traveling strangers could stop for sleep, and from that word derives our term “cemetery,” a place where the bodies of the dead lie sleeping. Some scholars suggest that the use of “sleep” for death conveys the idea “that, as the sleeper does not cease to exist while his body sleeps, so the dead person continues to exist despite his absence from the region in which those who remain can communicate with him, and that, as sleep is known to be temporary, so the death of the body will be found to be. . . ” (W.E. Vine & C.F. Hogg, Expository Commentary on 1&2 Thessalonians, Nashville: Nelson, 1997, p. 95). Also, death is a state of rest from the toils and cares of the world. There, “the wicked cease from troubling; and the weary are at rest” (Job 3:17; cf. Rev. 14:13).

Back to the Dust
The Bible also realistically speaks of the decomposition of the body. When Adam and Eve sinned, they were deprived of the tree of life and hence of physical immortality (Gen. 3:22; Rom. 5:12). It is, therefore, man’s lot to return to the dust of the ground (Gen. 3:19; Ecclesiastes 12:7).

Paul speaks of the earthly house of our tabernacle being “dissolved” by death (2 Cor. 5:1). The Greek term for “dissolved” is kataluo, literally meaning to “loose down,” a vivid expression for fleshly decomposition. It is sad that some refuse to acknowledge the fate of the body, spending vast sums of money in attempting to preserve their mortal remains in hope of resuscitation. In spite of claims to the contrary, physical immortality will never be achieved by the medical profession.

The Sentimental Journey
Death is a departure. Death occurs when the spirit leaves the body (Jas. 2:26). When Dorcas died, Christian widows stood near her body and showed the garments she had made “while she was with them” (Acts 9:39). Her body was there, but “she” (i.e., her spirit or personality) was gone!

Paul thought of death as a departure (Phil. 1:23). Interestingly, the apostle here uses the term analuo (loosed up). At death, though the body is “loosed down” (see above on 2 Cor. 5:1), the spirit of man is “loosed up.” When Lazarus died, his spirit “was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom” (Lk. 16:22). These passages, and a host of others, are devastating to the materialistic theories that assert that man is a wholly physical being.

Another interesting word that reveals death as a journey is the term exodus. On the mount of transfiguration, the Lord talked of his impending “decease” (exodus, Lk. 9:31), and Peter wanted his brethren to remember his words after his “departure” (exodus, 2 Pet. 1:15). This is the very word used of the Israelites’ departure from Egypt (cf. Heb. 11:22, and the title of the Book of Exodus in the Septuagint). As the Hebrews continued to consciously exist while passing from Egypt into the wilderness of Sinai, even so, we continue to consciously exist when our departure is made from earthly regions to the realm of disembodied spirits.

Blissful Reunions
Death is a reunion with righteous loved ones. It is written of the patriarch Abraham, “Abraham gave up the ghost, and died. . . and was gathered to his people” (Gen. 25:8). This cannot refer to the interment of Abraham’s body. He was buried near Mamre in Palestine. Yet his ancestors had been entombed hundreds of miles away in distant lands! The expressions “gathered to his people,” and “going to his fathers” (Judg. 2:10), are constantly distinguished from being buried and denote reunion with loved ones in Sheol, the sphere of departed spirits (C.F. Keil & F. Delitzsch, The Pentateuch, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1980, I, p. 263).

When Jesus suggested that many would sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven (Mt. 8:11), he certainly implied a reunion among those three.

Face-to-face with Christ
For those who die in Christ, death is union with the Lord. Jesus informed the dying thief, “Today you shall be with me in paradise” (Lk. 23:43). And as previously observed, Paul longed to depart to be “with Christ” (Phil. 1:23).

In a passage brimming with comfort, the apostle affirms that “to be absent from the body” (i.e., be dead) is, in reality, “to be at home with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:8). The expression “to be at home” is used in Greek of “one among his own people” in contrast to “one away from home.” (A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Nashville: Broadman, 1931, IV, p. 229). Additionally, the phrase “with [pros] the Lord,” as here used, means to be in the presence of the Lord! Alford Plummer says it implies “that at death there is immediate entrance into closer fellowship with Christ” (International Critical Commentary, II Corinthians, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1925, p. 153). Yes, at death the spirit “returns to God who gave it” (Eccl. 12:7), and he will assign it its final disposition.

The Agony of Defeat
For the wicked, death begins an eternity of suffering. Though it is not a popular theme in contemporary society, the doctrine of hell is still a vital part of the Bible. At death, all who have lived in rebellion to God will enter a spirit state characterized by pains, trouble, and sorrow (Psa. 116:3). They will be immersed in shame and contempt (Dan. 12:2). It will be a realm of anguish, suffering, and torment (Mt. 22:13; 25:46; Mk. 9:48; Lk. 16:24; 2 Thes. 1:9; Rev. 20:10).

Prepare for Your Death
One cannot live wrong and die right! After death there is no opportunity for repentance or salvation. Such concepts as “a second chance after death,” “baptism for the dead,” and “purgatory,” are totally without basis in the Scriptures. While it is still “today,” therefore, let us resolve to learn the will of Christ and to obey the same (Heb. 5:8-9).

One must believe in Christ (Jn. 8:24), turn from sin (Lk. 13:3), and unite with the Lord in the likeness of his death through immersion in water (Rom. 6:3-4). Then, as a newborn babe, long for the word and grow thereby (1 Pet. 2:2; cf. 2 Pet. 3:18).

Though there are many things about death that we do not know (and the unknown can be somewhat frightening), the inspired word of God does afford enough information that we may take courage at the prospect of dying. Indeed, by faith, we know that for the faithful child of Jehovah, death will be an absolutely thrilling experience!
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

truth
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Post by truth » Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:33 pm

Though there are many things about death that we do not know (and the unknown can be somewhat frightening), the inspired word of God does afford enough information that we may take courage at the prospect of dying. Indeed, by faith, we know that for the faithful child of Jehovah, death will be an absolutely thrilling experience!

i can honestly say ,that i can never remember going to sleep.tho i have done it a number of times , i do how ever remember waking up .
i should think that waking up from death ,as it promised that it will happen , should be a far ,far, better thing that can possibly be imagined.
the only thing that might be better is never dieing at all. and for many that is a promise that as well will come true.

all these things are yet in the near future, for now all would do well to head the call to
"Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. as jesus said 22 Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?' 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
and to these the promise of ever lasting death.

sledford
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Post by sledford » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:55 am

truth wrote:the first thing to ask and to call into question is your line of thinking contradict scripture in any way shape or form?
for insentience i can show scripture which says the soul dies , that the dead know nothing(psalm 146:4), that it is to be better to be a living dog then to be a dead lion(Ecclesiastes 9:4, 5 ), that death is the penalty for sin(Ezekiel 18:4 )
,
do you not know that death is the enemy.? its the one thing that we fear more than any thing . one of the reasons why the blood of Jesus is so important is that because of it the dead will live again John 11:25 Jesus said to her: "I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;
is it not a far,far better thing to know that the dead will live again ? if you were to die and go to heaven and then to be told that you have to leave heaven ,that you will have to live on earth and never die , don't you think you would be a little up set , if heaven is that great why would you want to leave it ?you wouldn't ! death is just as the dictionary explains it

Main Entry: death
Pronunciation: 'deth
Function: noun

1 a : a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life

it is a far better thing to know that the dead are considered by god to be sleeping in death, unconscious of were they are.
not being tortured in fire nor any thing that is pictured in the pagan beliefs of misguided man kind.
the bible is really very simple to under stand , it only gets cloudy when miss concepts taken from false religion are mixed in and the under standing of it becomes blurry.
I'll be frank that the conversation is "wandering" all about through many details. This generally leads to frustration and confusion as not all of the points can be properly addressed in a logical order. My previous observations regarding the Rich Man and Lazarus story about being a literal story have not been addressed. Are you going to respond to this harmonization problem?

I will also ask another question with regard to the conclusions you present here: How do you harmonize the End Judgment scene Jesus describes in Matt 25:34-46(the text of which is in my previous post) with these ones you state here? If the spiritually lost never awaken again (check me if I have this wrong as I don't want to ascribe an incorrect conclusion to you), then how are they part of the scene Jesus depicts and the conversations he has with them?

(I edited this post because I realized I mixed up a question from another thread in this one. My apology and in the spirit of full disclosure I wanted to explain that to the reader.)

truth
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Post by truth » Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:47 pm

sledford said "My previous observations regarding the Rich Man and Lazarus story about being a literal story have not been addressed. Are you going to respond to this harmonization problem?"
I'm sorry I thought that i answered that in the post with ABSURDITIES Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:56 am

sledford said " I will also ask another question with regard to the conclusions you present here: How do you harmonize the End Judgment scene Jesus describes in Matt 25:34-46(the text of which is in my previous post) with these ones you state here? If the spiritually lost never awaken again (check me if I have this wrong as I don't want to ascribe an incorrect conclusion to you), then how are they part of the scene Jesus depicts and the conversations he has with them? "

again I'm sorry but i seam to be confuse .you might want to restate the question .
are you asking for under standing concerning the sheep and the goats ?
the separating work has been proceeding for many years. According to God's Word, those who have rejected his Kingdom rule, as well as those who indifferently pass up the opportunity to learn of him, will be cut off. For others who identify themselves as supporters of God's Kingdom, this will mark a time of relief.
as far as the spiritually dead are concerned the explanation is in the fact that a person can be physically alive but spiritually dead. this was pointed out by the apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesians "Furthermore, it is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins." And to the Romans he said they should present themselves "to God as those alive from the dead." (Eph. 2:1; Rom. 6:13)

sledford
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Post by sledford » Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:08 pm

truth wrote:again I'm sorry but i seam to be confuse .you might want to restate the question .
are you asking for under standing concerning the sheep and the goats ?
the separating work has been proceeding for many years. According to God's Word, those who have rejected his Kingdom rule, as well as those who indifferently pass up the opportunity to learn of him, will be cut off. For others who identify themselves as supporters of God's Kingdom, this will mark a time of relief.
as far as the spiritually dead are concerned the explanation is in the fact that a person can be physically alive but spiritually dead. this was pointed out by the apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesians "Furthermore, it is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins." And to the Romans he said they should present themselves "to God as those alive from the dead." (Eph. 2:1; Rom. 6:13)
I'm going to test my understanding of your conclusion by repeating it in my own words as simply as I can.

You are asserting that the scene Jesus speaks of in Matt 25:34-46 is speaking of the present day action of alive people on earth in the presence of God? Restating in the negative, you conclude that the scene of Matt 25:34-46 is NOT in Heaven at the very throne of God at the end of times, the Judgement day as it is referred?

I would appreciate it greatly if you could affirm or correct my understanding as I stated it.

truth
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Post by truth » Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:50 pm

I'm going to test my understanding of your conclusion by repeating it in my own words as simply as I can.

You are asserting that the scene Jesus speaks of in Matt 25:34-46 is speaking of the present day action of alive people on earth in the presence of God?

it is a well know fact that Jesus used illustrations to explain things 34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them; 35 that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet who said: "I will open my mouth with illustrations, I will publish things hidden since the founding( mat 13:34-35)
no doubt your trying to find some under standing as to what Jesus is saying.he is saying work at getting along with one another ,be hospitable ,care for one another even as you would care for Jesus if he were here living and afflicted
with the anxieties of life .
for those that do they are the ones that will receive the gift of the kingdom. living in this kingdom is yet in the future
and after the war of Armageddon is over




34 "Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and YOU gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and YOU gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and YOU received me hospitably; 36 naked, and YOU clothed me. I fell sick and YOU looked after me. I was in prison and YOU came to me.' 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you?' 40 And in reply the king will say to them, 'Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.'

41 "Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, 'Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but YOU gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but YOU gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but YOU did not receive me hospitably; naked, but YOU did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but YOU did not look after me.' 44 Then they also will answer with the words, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?' 45 Then he will answer them with the words, 'Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me.' 46 And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."





Restating in the negative, you conclude that the scene of Matt 25:34-46 is NOT in Heaven at the very throne of God at the end of times, the Judgement day as it is referred?

its an illustration set to explain and give under standing
I would appreciate it greatly if you could affirm or correct my understanding as I stated it.

JSM17
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Post by JSM17 » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:21 am

The burden is on you "truth" to prove that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable, so far, even with an open mind and open heart no one would be convinced that it is a parable by your attempt to make it such.

Again deal with these thoughts:

1. Neither the Lord nor any NT chronicler refer to it as a parable. The Lord's treatment of it, on the contrary, have all the marks of an account which is to be given historical credibility.

2. Abraham, who is part of the account, is real, historical figure, and undoubtedly, the rich man and Lazarus are to be viewed in the same CONTEXT.

3. The entire scene concerned matters outside the daily experience of the disciples, and does not use the earthly, mundane events of the Eastern life familiar to them, as is common in parabolic teaching elsewhere in the scriptures and in Jewish literature. It does not fit the tried and true definition of a parable as "an earthly story with a heavenly meaning".

4. The scene, on the other hand, does correspond closely with the general understanding of the abode of the dead then current among the Jews.

5. The use of other figures of speech within the text itself indicate that it was not to be understood as a parable. Such expressions as Lazarus being "full of sores" in verse 20, et. all make it unlikely that the Lord would further shroud the meaning of the lesson behind a greater veil of imagery and mystery. This is not typical of the parables.


Instead of ignoring these ideas deal with them, you ignored them last time I presented them.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

truth
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Post by truth » Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:55 am

First of all we know that Jesus all ways spoke with illustrations .The Bible gives two noteworthy reasons why Jesus used illustrations. First, his doing so fulfilled prophecy. The apostle Matthew wrote: "Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them; that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet who said: 'I will open my mouth with illustrations.'" (Matthew 13:34, 35) "The prophet" quoted by Matthew was the composer of Psalm 78:2. That psalmist wrote under the inspiration of God's spirit centuries before Jesus' birth. Is it not remarkable that hundreds of years in advance, Jehovah determined that his Son would teach with illustrations? Surely Jehovah must value this method of teaching!

Second, Jesus himself explained that he used illustrations to sift out those whose hearts were unresponsive. After he related to "great crowds" the parable of the sower, his disciples asked: "Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?" Jesus answered: "To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted. This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, 'By hearing, you will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, you will look but by no means see. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive.'"-Matthew 13:2, 10, 11, 13-15; Isaiah 6:9, 10.

To illustrate the point of how and why i know its an illustrations consider Jesus 's words, "But a certain man was rich," Jesus explains, "and he used to deck himself with purple and linen, enjoying himself from day to day with magnificence. But a certain beggar named Lazarus used to be put at his gate, full of ulcers and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, too, the dogs would come and lick his ulcers."

Jesus here uses the rich man to represent the Jewish religious leaders, including not only the Pharisees and the scribes but the Sadducees and the chief priests as well. They are rich in spiritual privileges and opportunities, and they conduct themselves as the rich man did. Their clothing of royal purple represents their favored position, and the white linen pictures their self-righteousness.

This proud rich-man class views the poor, common people with utter contempt, calling them 'am ha·'a´rets, or people of the earth. The beggar Lazarus thus represents these people to whom the religious leaders deny proper spiritual nourishment and privileges. Hence, like Lazarus covered with ulcers, the common people are looked down upon as spiritually diseased and fit only to associate with dogs. Yet, those of the Lazarus class hunger and thirst for spiritual nourishment and so are at the gate seeking to receive whatever meager morsels of spiritual food may drop from the rich man's table.

Since the rich man and Lazarus are not literal persons but symbolize classes of people, logically their deaths are also symbolic. What do their deaths symbolize, or represent?

Jesus has just finished pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that 'the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptizer, but from then on the kingdom of God is being declared.' Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both the rich man and Lazarus die to their former circumstances, or condition.

Those of the humble, repentant Lazarus class die to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor. Whereas they had earlier looked to the religious leaders for what little dropped from the spiritual table, now the Scriptural truths imparted by Jesus are filling their needs. They are thus brought into the bosom, or favored position, of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God.

On the other hand, those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the Kingdom message taught by Jesus. They thereby die to their former position of seeming favor. In fact, they are spoken of as being in figurative torment. Listen as the rich man speaks:

"Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire." God's fiery judgment messages proclaimed by Jesus' disciples are what torment individuals of the rich-man class. They want the disciples to let up on declaring these messages, thus providing them some measure of relief from their torments.

"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Lazarus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish. And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you people, so that those wanting to go over from here to you people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.'"

How just and appropriate that such a dramatic reversal take place between the Lazarus class and the rich man class! The change in conditions is accomplished a few months later at Pentecost 33 C.E., when the old Law covenant is replaced by the new covenant. It then becomes unmistakably clear that the disciples are favored by God, not the Pharisees and other religious leaders. The "great chasm" that separates the symbolic rich man from Jesus' disciples therefore represents God's unchangeable, righteous judgment.

Journey
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Post by Journey » Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:18 pm

Hello Truth:

Your name is awesome. Truth is something that everyone should search for from the scriptures. It is highly important always to use the scriptures in a most healthy manner. Never going to the scriptures to prove oneself right but to seek what the scriptures say.

I read your comments about Ecclesiastes, but it seems you have missed what Ecclesiastes is saying. The writer Solomon was constantly talking about things done "under the sun" throughout the book of Ecclesiastes. Notice Eccl. 1:3 "works hard under the sun?" Eccl. 2:9 "nothing of advantage under the sun." Eccl. "showed wisdom under the sun." Eccl. 4:3 "calamitous work that is being done under the sun." Eccl. 5:18 "he works hard under the sun..." Eccl. 6:11 "what will happen after him under the sun." Eccl. 8:9 "has been done under the sun the time that man has domininated man..." As we can see that Solomon is always talking about life here on earth "under the sun."

Now let's look at Eccl. 9 reading down to verse 3 This is what is calamitous in all that has been "done under the sun", that because there is one eventuality to all the heart of the sons of men is also full of bad; and there is madness in their heart during their lifetime, and after it --to the dead ones! Again we see that the same thought is carried thru in chapter 9 of Ecclesiastes that which man does "under the sun."

Let's move on than to where you quoted Eccl. 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be "done under the sun." 7 Go, eat your food with rejoicing and drink your wine with a good heart, because already the (true) God has found pleasure in your works. 8 On every occasion let your garments prove to be white, and let oil not be lacking upon your head. 9 See life with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life that He has given you "under the sun", all the days of your vanity, for that is your portion in life and in your hard work with which you are working hard "under the sun."

Eccl. here is stating that while you are alive "living under the sun" do what you can, work, love, eat, rejoice, have a good heart, do good, love your wife, FOR THE DAY IS COMING WHEN YOU WILL NOT BE HERE "UNDER THE SUN", TO DO THESE THINGS. You can not come back from the dead to live here on the earth under the sun to change anything that you have done while alive on the earth. You have one chance to live on the earth under the sun and one chance only.

Solomon is not talking about what happens to your soul when you die. Solomon is merely telling you that what you can do as a living soul here on the earth under the sun, DO. The day is coming when you will die and you can not come back and change anything that you have done here on earth "under the sun."

Ecclesiastes is talking about all things done while you are living on the earth "under the sun." It proves nothing about what happens to a soul after it dies a physical death.

You also have misused your information on Adam, you know very well Adam died spiritually the day he ate of the tree of good and evil. Adam did not physical die the day he ate of the tree of good and evil, he died pysically much later.

Looking forward to your response,

Journey

truth
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Post by truth » Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:32 pm

Solomon is not talking about what happens to your soul when you die. Solomon is merely telling you that what you can do as a living soul here on the earth under the sun, DO. The day is coming when you will die and you can not come back and change anything that you have done here on earth "under the sun."

you said some thing i found amusing . you said "Ecclesiastes is talking about all things done while you are living on the earth "under the sun." the opposite of living of course would be "dead".
you all so pointed out " For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten"(Eccl. 9:5)
Solomon fully recognized that a person had to be alive to do all the things that a man can do . he knew that he would die , and the only thing that would live on was the memory of him.

you said "Ecclesiastes is talking about all things done while you are living on the earth "under the sun." It proves nothing about what happens to a soul after it dies a physical death."
well first we have to come to an under standing of what a soul is. i know from scripture is that every living thing whether it be mammal , reptile , bird ,fish , or even insects are considered to be "souls".
you are a soul even as i am a soul. Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls-to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son-to me they belong. The soul that is sinning-it itself will die.
fortunately we as human now have a redeemer , he being Jesus the Christ . his promise is that all believing in him will live again . i am here referring to the resurrection or being brought back to life to live here on earth. not to be just alive as we are now , but all so to have perfect health, and never growing old and dieing . the earth as well will become a Paradise even as God set it up to be.
i am here refering to the millennial rule of the Christ , after the 1000 years have ended then those who have proven that there on God side , then, that is when God will consider man alive again.

you said "You also have misused your information on Adam, you know very well Adam died spiritually the day he ate of the tree of good and evil. Adam did not physical die the day he ate of the tree of good and evil, he died physically much later. "
i fear the meaning of the phrase "spiritually dead " may have a different meaning to you that it does to me .
before Adam sinned he was in a close relationship with God ,after the point of his sin he became imperfect and his relationship with God changed . to God he was dead.
to be spiritually dead confers the idea that some one no longer cares about spiritual matters , honoring god ,doing what God asks of man. etc.


i hope to chat with you again
truth

Journey
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Post by Journey » Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:33 pm

Hello Truth:

Your comment: Solomon fully recognized that a person had to be alive to do all the things that a man can do. he knew that he would die, and the only thing that would live on was the memory of him.

We agree. Where we do not agree is that Eccl. is not talking about the condition of the dead, physical death. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that from Eccl. 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages......

Here is where a JW claims that the dead are conscious of nothing and so the conclusion the dead just die, go out of existance. That is why they know nothing. Again your claim than verified that the soul that is sinning it itself will die, go out of existance.

False claim trying to twist what is being talked about at Eccl.

Jehovah Witnesses believe that Adam and Eve were spiritually dead the moment they ate the forbidden fruit. If you truly are a loyal JW you also know that Adam and Eve will never receive a resurrection, they are spiritual dead.

Will start another thread and let's find out from the bible says about the soul.

Journey

Journey
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Post by Journey » Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:00 pm

Jesus ransom sacrifice did not include Adam, Let God Be True p.119

JSM17
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Post by JSM17 » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:19 am

Your biblical proof is found where?

I am not sure what this "Let God Be Truep.119" is. Are we to know what this means, maybe you could explain your statement in greater detail.

You make a statement without giving anyone proof of your statement.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

Journey
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Post by Journey » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:07 am

Dear JSM17:

The response was in answer to Truth. He makes claims that he believes the JW's doctrine, and does not give a JW answer to you's in all honesty in regards to Adam. The book "Let God be True" is a JW publication, in it proving what a JW believes about Adam.

Truth being a JW would know that, if he makes the claims to be a JW in belief, than it is expected of him to follow all JW beliefs, or he can be held accountable as an apostate.

If you need further explanation e-mail me here privately.

Journey

truth
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Post by truth » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:50 pm

Who Will Be Resurrected?

"The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus'] voice and come out," said Jesus. (John 5:28, 29) According to this promise, those in the memorial tombs-those who are in Jehovah's memory-will be resurrected. The question, then, is, Of all those who have died, who actually are in God's memory awaiting a resurrection?

The Bible book of Hebrews chapter 11 lists by name men and women who faithfully served God. They as well as those loyal servants of God who have died in recent years will be among the resurrected ones. What about people who failed to meet God's standards of righteousness, perhaps because of a lack of knowledge? Are they also in God's memory? Yes, many are, for the Bible promises: "There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."-Acts 24:15.

However, not everyone who has ever lived will receive a resurrection. "If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth," states the Bible, "there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment." (Hebrews 10:26, 27) Some committed sins for which there is no forgiveness. They are not in Hades (mankind's common grave) but in Gehenna, a symbolic place of eternal destruction. (Matthew 23:33) We must be careful, though, not to speculate on whether a certain person will be resurrected or not. This judgment belongs to God. He knows who is in Hades and who is in Gehenna. For our part, we do well to live our lives according to God's will.

i know what has been said in years past about Adam & eve but this WT of 06-3 states it quite plainly "We must be careful, though, not to speculate on whether a certain person will be resurrected or not. This judgment belongs to God. He knows who is in Hades and who is in Gehenna. For our part, we do well to live our lives according to God's will. "
i have to agree with that , there are some things we don't know and cant prove , that being the case, if we do, we are diving into speculation as to what god had better do. I'm not going to do that.

to your inquiry as to how long have i been a JW ? since June of 1975, and yes i am a healthy witness of Jehovah god.

Journey
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Post by Journey » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:51 am

Dear Truth:

First a total response to all you have said. We both agree on many issues that you have said, most fervently the idea that Jesus will judge and decide where exactly each person will be heaven or hell, based on the choices thru life that person made, based on what God's Word has said.

Please remember, Truth, according to the WTTS, Proverbs 4:18 "But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established." If any changes take place within the organization the WTTS (governing body) is the one who decides on changes. They use Proverbs to show that they do not have all answers, but thru time their understanding becomes better, and thus changes are made to conform to the new light Jehovah has shown. Maybe this Wt 06-3 is going to bring about new changes on this particular subject. I really do not know.

I do know that until the WTTS recants their belief on Adam and Eve, no one within the organization can make those changes until they are announced by the governing body. This is a very important belief of JW's that Adam and Eve were perfect and committed a willful sin. Sin that would affect all mankind. God's sovereignty was called into question by Satan the devil and now he had man even questioning God's sovereignty. Adam and Eve caused the whole world to be in the condition it is. According to the WTTS since Adam and Eve no one is perfect, or without sin. The whole issue in question is God's sovereignty. The angels in heaven wait in awe to see the conclusion of all things. Of couse God's sovereignty will prevail.

Your last remark when you became a JW, June 1975. I had studied with the JW from about 1972 to 1974, at which time I was baptized; February 1974. Faithful, and obedient, left November 1999.

Journey

Journey
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Post by Journey » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:43 am

Who will be resurrected?

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which "all" who are in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgement.

Notice John 5:29 which you did not quote explains the meaning of what is said in John 5:28 . Always allow the scriptures to explain itself. In John 5:28 it says "all who are in the memorial tombs", the memorial tombs is the grave, nothing more. Than in John 5:29 it says who the "all" will be, "those who did good" and "those who practiced vile things." All the good and all the bad will be resurrected. the good will have life and the bad will have a resurrection of judgement.

God will remember "all" his creation, the good and the bad, all will be accountable on judgement day. Acts 24:15 confirms what the bible had already said in John 5:28-29. "All" will be resurrected the "righteous" and the "unrighteous." The JW's are using the words "memorial tombs" to add to thoughts of what God's Word says. JW's added thoughts, Jehovah will remember all those in the memorial tombs who were obedient unto Him, what about the disobedient one's in the memorial tombs? Other translations just have "grave" for "memorial tombs."

Hebrews 10:26-27 again is a repeat of what the bible says at John 5:28-29. Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but a certain "fearful expectation of judgement." John says "those who practice vile things to a resurrection of judgement." Hebrew and John talk of the same judgement. The question would be what is that fearful judgement or what is the judgement of the unrighteous, which is being discussed in this thread, hell.


Journey

Journey
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Post by Journey » Wed Mar 07, 2007 12:27 pm

Dear Truth:

The bible talks about a "fearful judgement" or some kind of "judgement" for the unrighteous. The JW would say that it is the common grave, death, (hell, hades, sheol). If that be the case that is the judgement death, the grave, how is that a fearful judgement. According to the JW you die, you go out of existance, you know nothing, feel nothing, ect., so where is the fear of judgement in that, you won't know that you will not have a resurrection. Where is the fear of the judgement of God??

Journey

truth
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Post by truth » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:23 pm

it would seam this one who calls him self Journey is in fact an apostate
little if ant thing that he says can be trusted , as the truth is not in him.

Journey
Posts: 20
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:58 pm

Post by Journey » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:11 pm

Dear Truth:

Journey follows only God's Word. Truth has proven with his own tongue he follows the WatchTower Tract Society. The New Testament leaves the thought that an apostate is one who expresses abandonment of the faith. The bible speaks of only one faith.

Eph. 4:4-5 There is only one body and one Spirit, just as ou were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, ONE FAITH, one baptism....

Matthew speaks of "Narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life; and FEW find it."

Seeing you follow the WTTS, a manmade organization, you do not follow the God of the bible or do you follow God's Word. Truth according to God's Word you are a false prophet.

Let us further look into what a false prophet is.....a false prophet is anyone who claims that Jehovah had said something and when it does NOT come true, the person is proven a false prophet. It only takes one time for a false prophet to prophecy a lie.

How many false prophecies has the WTTS taught.

1915 The prediction of the end of the world. The present great war in Europe is the beginning of the Armageddon of the scriptures. It will eventuate in the complete overthrow of all the systems of error which have so long oppressed the people of God and deluded the world. CT Russell, Pastor Russell's Sermons, pg 676

1916 We see no reason for doubting, therefore, that the Times of the Gentiles ended in October, 1914; and that a few more years will witness their utter collapse and the full establishment of God's Kingdom in the hands of the Messiah. Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1916.

1974 Perdiction again of the end of the world in the fall of 1975. Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not reason to increase our activity? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end. Kingdom Ministry, May 1974

Truth with all sincerity, the WTTS is proven by it's own false prophecies that they are the apostate. If you remain a part of that apostacy the Lord will hold you accountable.

Journey

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