drinking wine?

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drinking wine?

Post by email » Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:33 pm

1. Is drinking wine wrong biblicly? I don't believe it because Noah drank wine, and so did Jesus. I know that the bible tells us not to be drunk, but does it say not to drink wine? I've heard people say "you shouldn't drink alcohol because it is bad for you and you are suppose to look after your body because it is a temple for the Holy Spirit." I think if that was true then one shouldn't breath smog in cities, or eat fast food, or step into the sun because you'll get skin cancer, etc. Jesus even taught not to worry of these things in Matthew 6:25. Another place in scripture is Matthew 11:18-19 when Jesus tells about the people calling Him a drunkard. If all He was drinking was grape juice then why would it be a problem? Another point I thought of was that if Jesus is our example of how to live and He drank wine, then how could it be wrong with out making Jesus out to be hipocritical. I do believe that being drunk is wrong because in this state you are lead to sin quite easily, but I don't believe having the odd glass of wine should be looked down apon. I know the destructive effects alcohol can have on people, but it is up to us to know better and control our actions because we are responsible for everything that we do. Noone can make you do anything, even God has given us free will to choose what is right and wrong. By controlling what someone is exposed to, people take that choice away for something they see as "right". How can we force upon others what we think is right, when everyone has the duty to decide what they think is right and wrong in God's eyes. After all if we tell someone not to drink because we think it is wrong are we not adding to God's will?

Sorry to be so long I wanted to express most of my ideas about this subject for you. Unfortunatly I'll have to email you the others questions at a later date because I'm quite tried. Hope to hear back from you soon.
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Post by m273p15c » Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:33 pm

Many people call this the question of "social drinking", or maybe just "moderate drinking". The question is not one of whether someone can get drunk, but it is a question of whether one can drink moderate amounts, maybe only on social occasions. Since we cannot find a strict "Thou shalt not drink alcohol", or "Thou shalt drink alcohol" for this question, we will have to examine the related passages and draw a conclusion based off of principles, wisdom, and examples.

We are agreed that drinking to the point of drunkenness is clearly condemned (Galatians 5:19-21; I Peter 4:3-5; Romans 13:13; Luke 21:33-36); however, I do believe that moderate drinking is also condemned. Now that you know my position, let us examine your argument about Jesus and Noah drinking alcoholic wine.

Regarding Noah, please notice that he not only drank moderate amounts, but he became so drunk that he passed out! Now, if Noah's example approves drinking moderately, then it also approves getting excessively drunk! There's an old saying that goes, "What proves too much, proves nothing." Since Noah's example violates clear teaching of the New Testament on drunkenness (Galatians 5:19-21; I Peter 4:3-5), then it cannot be considered a "good" example. In fact, it shows how bad drinking can be. Did Noah set out to get drunk? I imagine not, but look what happened after drinking in the privacy of his own home:
Moses wrote: "And Noah began to be a farmer, and he planted a vineyard. Then he drank of the wine and was drunk, and became uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside."

"But Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and went backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness."

"So Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done to him. Then he said: 'Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brethren.'" (Genesis 9:20-25)
It is not clear to me if Ham committed some heinous sexual act (consider "Noah awoke and knew what his son had done to him"), or if Ham just gazed and mocked at his father. Either way, I don't think this is something that I would like to see repeated in my family. Instead of proving the nobility and innocence of drinking, this example shows the dangers, folly, and ruin that comes from drinking, even if conducted by good, moderate men in the privacy of their own home!

Now, about Jesus drinking wine, it is important that you know that wine in the Bible does not always refer to alcoholic wine. Often it refers to ordinary fresh grape juice. You have to look at the context to determine which is under consideration. The following is somewhat laborious, but if you would like a clear example, please consider the following:
  1. For example in Leviticus 23:10-14, the Israelites were commanded to offer some wine as part of their "firstfruit" offering. In fact, they were not to eat or drink anything of the new harvest until they had offered this sacrifice to the Lord in thankfulness for the harvest. How long does it take to turn fresh grape juice into alcoholic wine?
  2. Levites along with the rest of the Israelites, who brought the offerings, were commanded to eat part of the sacrifices, including the wine, after they were offered to the Lord (Deuteronomy 12:17-18). However, the Levites were not to drink any intoxicating drink (Leviticus 10:9). So, how did they drink the wine without drinking intoxicating drink? Clearly, wine does not always refer to the alcoholic variety.
  3. Examining the Hebrew words yields a little more information, although not necessary to understand the truth: The above passage in Leviticus 10 uses the common Hebrew word for wine, yayin, while the word in Deuteronomy 12 clearly uses a Hebrew word, tiyrowsh, that means new, fresh grape juice. This might be used to explain how the Levites were able to drink of "wine" (Deuteronomy 12:17 tiyrowsh, fresh grape juice), but not drink of "wine" (Leviticus 10:9 yayin, wine) at the same time. However, if you look closely, you will see that back in Leviticus 23, the word for wine is also yayin. Since the same sacrifice is referenced in Leviticus 23:13 and Deuteronomy 12:17, we see that two different Hebrew words are used for the same thing. Since the word for wine is used interchangeably with the word for fresh grape juice, we know that common "wine" must sometime refer to fresh grape juice. Please note that we had to go outside the immediate context to determine this. In fact we had to go to a completely different book to get the whole story! Sometimes we have to put the whole Bible together to get the complete story. God does not always say everything He wants to say about one subject in one place. We often have to do some digging to answer the tough questions (II Timothy 2:15).
Now, back to the New Testament and the topic of Jesus drinking - Can you find anything in the context of Jesus turning water into wine that suggests the wine was intoxicating? As we are thinking on this, let's look at some other passages that may help to soften our prejudices before we examine the account of Jesus turning water into wine.

Drinking alcohol is extremely unwise. King Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, advised that we stay far away from alcohol:
Solomon wrote: "Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, And whoever is led astray by it is not wise." (Proverbs 20:1)

"Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has contentions? Who has complaints? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who linger long at the wine, Those who go in search of mixed wine. Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly; At the last it bites like a serpent, And stings like a viper. Your eyes will see strange things, And your heart will utter perverse things." (Proverbs 23:29-33)
Even if one does not sin in becoming moderately intoxicated, even if one somehow manages to keep his mouth shut and avoid saying foolish and damaging words, then he is still in danger of the sin of "dissipation".
Paul wrote: "And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ," (Ephesians 5:18-20).
Like the one who went and buried his talent in the ground, if we waste exorbitant time on any earthly pleasure, then we are squandering the most precious gift that God has given us. This will leave us all but empty handed on the day the Lord returns to judge His servants (Matthew 25:14-46). I already have too much trouble redeeming the precious time that I have been given (Ephesians 5:14-18). I do not need another "monkey on my back", or some "ball and chain" slowing me down any more than I already have been slowed. If we want to serve the Lord, then we should lay these burdens aside, so we can run with all of the might that God has given us (Hebrews 12:1-2).

Now, you might be thinking these verses address being "drunk", not "moderate drinking" or "social drinking". While I could argue there is great danger expressed by these verses, and I could reference the command to stay far away from similar evils (II Timothy 2:22; I Timothy 6:11), and I could mention that we are to stay far away from things that may be innocent but lead to sin (Romans 13:14), instead I would like for us to examine the passage in I Peter 4:3 a little more closely:
Peter wrote: "For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles -- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you." (I Peter 4:3-4)
Please notice that three different kinds of drinking are prohibited: drunkenness, wild drinking parties, and social drinking parties. While the first two words clearly relate to excess of wine, the last word has reference to a slightly more moderated form of drinking. It is a party where people are not drunk, but they have been affected by the alcohol that they have been drinking at this occasion.

Finally, please consider Paul's command to Timothy:
Paul wrote: "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities." (I Timothy 5:23)
Please notice that the occasion for drinking wine was for medicinal purposes. If drinking was a frequent, and regular part of the Christian's life, then why did Paul have to command Timothy to drink a little? Why did he not chastise Timothy for unnecessarily avoiding wine altogether and binding what was not bound?

Their drinking water was not as clean as our water today, so a little bit of wine mixed with water would help to kill the bacteria in the water. This would remedy Timothy's upset stomach and other "infirmities" that were associated with drinking bad water.

Now getting back to Jesus drinking wine - It is important that you know that their wine was very different form our modern wine in one significant aspect: The alcoholic content was greatly reduced. It was dramatically lower for multiple reasons, some technological. But common hard wine was only about 1%-2% alcoholic, versus the much higher 15%-25% that we have today. Even at that time, one was considered a barbarian that drank this "hard" wine straight, without mixing it with water. The common wine they drank was cut down many times, such that you would have to drink gallons to become drunk. Or, you would have to drink it straight, which would still be much less potent than modern wine.

What kind of wine do you think they drank at the wedding feast, where Jesus turned water into wine? Do we see people getting intoxicated? The people had "well drunk". In fact, they drank all the wine. Yet, there is no record of intoxication Moreover, they were still able to distinguish and appreciate the good-tasting wine that Jesus created (John 2:1-10). How could people have "well drunk", even drank "all the wine", and not be intoxicated? The only reasonable answer is that the alcoholic content was dramatically lower and was not sufficient to affect one's senses or mental state.

Christians are to be sober, serious people. This does not mean that they cannot laugh or have a good time, but they should be characterized by a clearness of mind that never loses sight of who they are, Whom they serve, or where they are going (I Thessalonians 5:6-8; I Peter 1:13-15; 5:8).

In conclusion, I would argue against moderate drinking for these reasons:
  1. It is difficult to control, and may lead to the sin of drunkenness (Romans 13:11-14; Ephesians 5:14-18).
  2. It is difficult to control, and may lead to our ruin (Proverbs 20:1; 23:29-33).
  3. It is difficult to control, and may lead to us squandering our precious time and talents (Ephesians 5:18; Matthew 25:14-46).
  4. Social drinking parties, although not culminating in excessive drink, are condemned (I Peter 4:3-4).
  5. The evidence suggests Jesus did not drink alcoholic wine (John 2:1-10).
  6. Timothy had to be commanded to drink a "little wine", and only then it was for "his stomach's sake" (I Timothy 5:23).
  7. Christians are to be characterized by a sober mind (I Thessalonians 5:6-8), focused on their mission and the lost souls that are at stake.
Although I did not answer all of your related questions, I believe they were addressed, or you will be able to address them yourself after reading this. As always, I welcome your feedback, thoughts, questions, and comments.

Take care friend.
Last edited by m273p15c on Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by email » Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:07 pm

I thank you for your comments and ideas towards this subject. It hasa been interesting to read your points. One final question was in Mark 2:22, and Luke 5:37, talk about new wine in old wine skins. Being that pasturization didn't come around until around 1877, the climate in those days would ferment grape juice in about 20 minuites from being pressed. Thats why old skins with new wine in them would burst, because of the expanding liquid. Knowing that grapes only flourish around the globe in the temperature bands between 20 and 50 degrees Latitude north or south of the equator, shows that grapes only grow in places with seasonal weather. So then the drink that Jesus and his disiples drank " of the fruit of the vine" on pass over before Jesus' crucifixion (Matt 26:29, Mark 14:25, Luke 22:18) on good friday in April, would have contained alcohol because there was no way that grapes being approximately 5 months old would not ferment in Israels climate, without pasturization. Don't get me wrong I believe fully that one should be drunk, but I see nothing wrong with someone having a drink as long as it doesn't tempt them to sin. I know that it has ruined a lot of peoples lives, but so has guns and war because Jesus told us to love everyone (John 15:12) yet there is no movement to stop killing or war , but there is to stop people from drinking. It's like all other sins before God people are presented with the right and wrong path to take. Just because many take the wrong path doesn't give someone the right to dictate what someone should do or not do. These are just some of the ideas I have come up with because I know that different people are effected differently by things (ie. Jesus associated with tax collectors and harlets because He was un effected by their ways) I believe that it isn't up to society or the church to enforce man's concerns in the name of God. It is up to the individual to decide what is right or wrong. You can't force people down the path of righteosness. My last point is if Jesus didn't drink wine then why did the Jews call him a wine bibber, or a drunkard if all He was drinking was non- alcoholic wine? If He was drinking grape juice then what was the problem? These are only points I need to express and questions that I need answered for my growth. I don't mean to "harp on" or be blasphemous because the Lord knows my heart to be true. Again my favorite saying I came up with is " You can not know the real truth, unless you question the truth you already know"

Thanks for your time
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Post by m273p15c » Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:08 pm

Thanks for the quick reply. I appreciate you considering the points.

I have enjoyed getting to know you through your answers and questions. I feel like as though we have built a kind of friendship based on our honesty and mutual spiritual concerns. Based on this relationship, I would like to ask you a straightforward question: On what does your faith rest? On what are you basing this decision? In the clear light of Scripture? Why are you turning to facts that are not substantiated by Scripture? I have no problem with looking to outside history to better explain the context of Scriptural facts, but I am concerned when a case is mostly based in external history, despite the disparaging comments of Scripture. I fear your prejudices are clouding your judgment. How sure are you that Jesus drank alcoholic, intoxicating wine during that Last Supper?

Please consider these verses:
Moses wrote:"And thus you shall eat it: with a belt on your waist, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. So you shall eat it in haste. It is the LORD's Passover. ... Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses. For whoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. ... For seven days no leaven shall be found in your houses, since whoever eats what is leavened, that same person shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a stranger or a native of the land. You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwellings you shall eat unleavened bread. ... Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days. And no leavened bread shall be seen among you, nor shall leaven be seen among you in all your quarters." (Exodus 12:11-13:10)
I do not know a lot about wine, the geographies in which grapes flourish,nor their seasonal growing periods. However, I am fairly confident that some form of yeast is required to make all wine of significant alcoholic content. Since yeast is leaven, how could Jesus have partaken in a leavened drink, defying God's law of the Passover?

Also, I believe you are mistaken concerning the fermenting process. It is my understanding that fresh grape juice, which is left alone, does not form wine. Although a process similar to fermentation has begun, it is actually forming nasty, vinegar-like, soured wine. It is rotting - not forming wine. If you leave a bottle of Welch's grape juice alone for a long time, you won't have wine. You will have an unpalatable drink - soured wine. Enjoyable wine requires special care. It won't occur without deliberate intervention. Also, I believe you are mistaken about the processes that were available during those days to preserve grape juice. If you would like to continue this discussion on the physics of wine-making, we can do that, but is that really the basis upon which you want your faith to stand? Is this the kind of answer you would feel confident in using to justify your actions on Judgment Day?

My argument regarding Jesus was not that Jesus did not drink wine with alcoholic content, but my argument was that if there was any alcohol present, it was too low to pose any danger of intoxication. Just because grape juice begins to ferment within 20 minutes of storing, does not indicate how much alcoholic content would be present. (Not to mention that is actually souring, not fermenting.) I am not concerned with the consumption of alcohol, as much as I am concerned with its intoxicating effects. I take cough-medicine, which has alcohol, but it has never altered my mental state. Even if Jesus consumed wine, it would not compare with the alcoholic content of modern wines of today.

Again, please put my previous points in the balances of decision, and honestly ask yourself, in which direction does the scale tip? In what direction does God's Word point us?
  1. It is difficult to control, and may lead to the sin of drunkenness (Romans 13:11-14; Ephesians 5:14-18).
  2. It is difficult to control, and may lead to our ruin (Proverbs 20:1; 23:29-33).
  3. It is difficult to control, and may lead to us squandering our precious time and talents (Ephesians 5:18; Matthew 25:14-46).
  4. Social drinking parties, although not culminating in excessive drink, are condemned (I Peter 4:3-4).
  5. The evidence suggests Jesus did not drink alcoholic wine (John 2:1-10; Exodus 12:11-13:10).
  6. Timothy had to be commanded to drink a "little wine", and only then it was for "his stomach's sake" (I Timothy 5:23).
  7. Christians are to be characterized by a sober mind (I Thessalonians 5:6-8), focused on their mission and the lost souls that are at stake.
If we cannot agree upon this point, I hope this will not prevent you from continuing your study of our online Bible correspondence course. I would be willing to lay this aside temporarily, so we could focus on these other concerns, which I believe will prove more fundamental. If you still feel you have Scriptural grounds for this, and you feel that I am not handling it thoroughly, then please let me know. I would be glad to discuss those passages first.

May God bless us to see and accept His truth for us,

Your friend
Last edited by m273p15c on Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by will » Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:10 pm

I am mailing you two useful reference paperbacks on subject of Bible Wines And Laws Of Fermentation, etc.,. Perhaps they will arrive by end of the week and be useful in future studies. Regarding this question, the material should help. To wit:
  1. The material provides bibliographed source quotes on:
    • How the ancients in fact preserved fresh fruits for months and years. Having fresh grapes and many other kinds of fruits out of season was common and ,if not bruised( i.e.skin not broken or grape fruit itself bruised) grapes would keep in a closed room well hanging in the clusters. They were kept packed in: sawdust, mustard seed and even cotton during English sailing ship days for delivery to England.
    • They could keep fresh squeezed grape juice by several ways: keep sealed in airtight new (antiseptically clean) bottles/ jars / skins( Covered w/ new pitch inside and out),
      boiling and reducing water content to a jell , syrup, solid and reconstitute as required. Fresh grape juice(fresh squeezed) would keep in a jar/ jug if cut off from air via olive oil + sulfur layer mixture.
    • They also made grape juice by reconstituting raisins w/ water and literature indicates rabbis had approved this as acceptable also for passover.
  2. Laws of fermentation developed and practiced today tell us alcoholic wine can only be made by 'art' under controlled circumstances / conditions involving several things. Only between 50-70 F, only if right sugar level( i.e., right water content ) and right yeast level for the sugar and access to air(oxygen). Books cite experience / experiments that no known instance that nature makes/ produces alcohol in any plant or food as part of its fruitage process. Grapes in a 'hot' land (i.e., avg daily temps of 90-110 F) always go to acetous state( (i.e., sour or vinegar).
  3. The correspondent mentioned distillation being discovered in 1800's . True, but that was a technique to increase alcoholic content / ratio. Distillation should not be confused with pasteurization techniques( No it was not discovered by Pasteur only that he "proved" what we call pasteurized items did not spontaneously generate life). Households since ancient times and it is recorded knew how to preserve (hence fruit preserves) fruits, etc, by boiling, reducing water content and sealing in air tight containers. I think we over endow the renaissance with learning new things. The truth appears they rediscovered much lost during the "dark ages", but I digress!
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Re: drinking wine?

Post by foc » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:37 pm

email wrote:1. Is drinking wine wrong biblicly? I don't believe it because Noah drank wine, and so did Jesus. I know that the bible tells us not to be drunk, but does it say not to drink wine? I've heard people say "you shouldn't drink alcohol because it is bad for you and you are suppose to look after your body because it is a temple for the Holy Spirit." I think if that was true then one shouldn't breath smog in cities, or eat fast food, or step into the sun because you'll get skin cancer, etc. Jesus even taught not to worry of these things in Matthew 6:25. Another place in scripture is Matthew 11:18-19 when Jesus tells about the people calling Him a drunkard. If all He was drinking was grape juice then why would it be a problem? Another point I thought of was that if Jesus is our example of how to live and He drank wine, then how could it be wrong with out making Jesus out to be hipocritical. I do believe that being drunk is wrong because in this state you are lead to sin quite easily, but I don't believe having the odd glass of wine should be looked down apon. I know the destructive effects alcohol can have on people, but it is up to us to know better and control our actions because we are responsible for everything that we do. Noone can make you do anything, even God has given us free will to choose what is right and wrong. By controlling what someone is exposed to, people take that choice away for something they see as "right". How can we force upon others what we think is right, when everyone has the duty to decide what they think is right and wrong in God's eyes. After all if we tell someone not to drink because we think it is wrong are we not adding to God's will?

Sorry to be so long I wanted to express most of my ideas about this subject for you. Unfortunatly I'll have to email you the others questions at a later date because I'm quite tried. Hope to hear back from you soon.
It is my view that drinking wine is permitted, but it is excess that is forbidden.
I know some use the 'strong wine' argument, and while there may be some substance to the idea that some 'wine' was fermented and some was not passages like these lose ALL meaning if they are not speaking of drinking fermented wine.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Whats the point of even saying not to be drunk if drinking fermented wine is intolerable to begin with?
Clearly whoever the subject is here they would HAVE to be permitted to drink fermented wine for this statement to even be remotely meaningful....yet it is EXCESS and being drunk that is prohibited therein.

And that is personally my non-negotiable position.
Drinking of wine is perfectly fine. It is excess and drunkenness that is 'sin'.

:)

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Post by JSM17 » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:54 am

First of all the "wine" of the bible in the first century is not the same wine that people drink today. This is a fact that can be concluded after a little investigation. However most who advocate such bad habits would not take the time to investigate that.

People like to say that there is nothing wrong with having a glass of wine or a beer and for some even a mixed drink. But I would like to pose the question "What is ones motivation for doing so? What affect does it have on you? If you say none, then why bother with it? If you say that it calms me down or relaxes me, is this not just medicating yourself and intoxicating yourself. Notice the word "inTOXICation", why do you think people today call it that?

I realize I am not making a biblical argument, I believe that has alreay been done well by m273p15c. The argument I raise is what is the motivation to drink at all and what affect does it have on the body?The comparison of having a drink and someone who eats fast food or tans is not a good one because I do not eat a cheeseburger with the intent of altering my body. Where as the person who wishes to have one drink does it because it makes them feel good.

After having said all this lets let a doctor tell us exactly what alcohol does to our systems:
ALCOHOL and the Body
by Albert S. Whiting, M.D.

ALCOHOL is the oldest and most widely used drug in the world. Primitive cultures believed alcohol to be a magical, mysterious cure for nearly every ailment. Clinical research has removed the mystery of what happens when a person drinks alcohol. We have learned a great deal about what alcohol is, what it does in the body, and how it affects behavior.

WHAT IT IS

Alcohol belongs to a family of chemicals that contain carbon and hydrogen. The active ingredient in alcoholic beverages is ethyl alcohol, also known as ethanol. It is a colorless and nearly tasteless liquid that is easily and quickly absorbed by the body.

Many people think alcohol is a stimulant, but actually it is a depressant. It slows down the function of all living cells, especially those in the brain. Alcohol belongs to the same group of drugs as anesthetics and tranquilizers.

HOW IT IS ABSORBED

Alcohol does not need to be digested after having been consumed. It moves with tremendous speed through the body, affecting every single tissue and organ. It quickly appears in the bloodstream, and its intoxicating effects are felt within a few minutes.

The body begins immediately to try to get rid of the alcohol. It is absorbed through the stomach or small intestine directly into the bloodstream. It then proceeds to the liver, where it is broken down or metabolized. This nrnrpss takes nlnre in several steDS. but the passes out in the urine), and sugar (which provides energy, or calories).

However, when it is consumed at a faster rate than the body's metabolism can handle (about one 12-ounce can of beer per hour), alcohol accumulates in the bloodstream and is distributed throughout the body. The higher the concentration of alcohol, the greater the disturbance it has on body cells. Severe disruption of function can occur and can cause death. The effects of alcohol on various organs will be discussed in more detail below.

EFFECTS OF ALCOHOL

* ON THE LIVER

Because the liver must perform most of the work of metabolizing alcohol, it bears the brunt of its effects. Even in the moderate drinker, after some years of continuous low-grade dysfunction, the damaged liver cells are gradually replaced by scar tissue. Irreversible scarring and destruction of the liver is known as cirrhosis of the liver.

As the liver becomes damaged, its ability to metabolize alcohol is reduced. The liver begins to accumulate fats, and there is further malfunction. The risk of other diseases such as hepatitis is increased.

* ON THE HEART

There have been reports that one drink a day slightly decreases the risk of heart disease because alcohol affects the way cholesterol is carried in the blood. However, there is a great deal of evidence to show that even a small amount of alcohol can be quite harmful to the heart.

Alcohol has a direct effect on heart muscle cells. It can progressively destroy heart muscle so the heart cannot pump efficiently. Alcohol also starves the heart by decreasing blood flow in the coronary arteries.

Alcohol has an influence on the risk factors for coronary heart disease. Drinkers have an increased rate of hypertension. Fat levels in the blood can be elevated by alcohol. And alcohol contains a great many calories, which can cause obesity and increase chances of heart disease.

Because of its sedative effects, alcohol depresses angina heart pains. If a person exercises after drinking and does not feel this pain, a heart attack may result.

* ON THE BRAIN

The organ most sensitive to alcohol is the brain. Alcohol affects the entire body, but its effects on the functions of the brain are the most noticeable —and to the person who is drinking, the most important. People drink alcohol because of the way it makes them feel, ignoring the damaging effects on the brain itself.

The brain reacts to alcohol in stages. The first portion of the brain to be affected is the cerebrum — the outermost layer, which is responsiblefor controlling the senses, speech, understanding, and judgment.

Alcohol depresses first the parts of the brain that normally inhibit or control actions and emotions. It appears as if alcohol —although it is a depressant —is acting as a stimulant because, as these higher centers of the brain are knocked out. the drinker feels liberated from moral and legal restrictions. The loss of these restraints can cause exhilaration and loss of inhibitions.

The alcohol continues to depress brain functions, resulting in slurred speech, unsteady walk, blurry vision, and loss of co-ordination. Drinkers often feel that their manual skills have been improved because their judgment has been impaired, while in reality their reaction times are slowed and their muscle coordination is less efficient.

Next. the drinker experiences various exaggerations of the emotions that can range from violence and aggressiveness to tearfulness and withdrawal. If a person continues to drink, the body protects itself from further damage by falling asleep or "passing out".

Alcohol destroys brain cells which, unlike the blood cells it also destroys, are irreplaceable. Alcohol ir.roairs the memory as well as the ability to learn new things.

* ON THE DIGESTIVE SYSTEM

Alcohol has absolutely no nutritive value other than calories, called "empty calories" because of the body's inability to store them. In fact, alcohol could be called an anti-nutrient because it actually increases the need for other nutrients.

Because alcohol supplies calories, alcoholic drinks can be very fattening. Alcohol is absorbed so quickly that its energy is available almost immediately. This energy is burned first, so the body fuel that would normally be used for energy is instead stored as fat.

The gastrointestinal system is irritated and damaged by alcohol. Thus it is less able to absorb nutrients, which can lead to malnutrition.

* ON THE REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM

When a pregnant woman drinks alcohol, it is distributed throughout both her body and the body of her unborn child. The developing baby is very sensitive to toxic substances, and alcohol can cause irreparable damage.

Alcohol interferes with the flow of oxygen to the fetus. This can result in smaller babies, birth defects, and even miscarriage.

The set of defects caused by drinking alcohol while pregnant is called fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS). This includes a range of disabilities involving facial deformities, limb and cardiovascular defects and impaired intellectual and motor development.

FAS, retarded growth, and behavioral difficulties are seen in the children of women who have consumed as little as a drink or two per day. Women who go on binges and drink excessively on occasion run the greatest risk of having brain-impaired babies.

The evidence is overwhelmingly conclusive that the only safe policy is complete abstention from alcohol during pregnancy. It has been shown that alcohol is harmful to the human system. The only wise response is to avoid its use as a beverage.

ALCOHOL TOLERANCE

Regular drinking increases a person's tolerance for alcohol. More is needed to feel the same effects —the single drink which once produced a feeling of relaxation is soon increased to two, and so on. The slide from drinking for pleasure to dependence is gradual.

The body tries to adapt to chronic alcohol use —the liver attempts to metabolize the alcohol more quickly, the cells work harder to get rid of it, and the drinker's behavior adapts to disguise impaired abilities. But after a while the body can no longe maintain equilibrium, and many organs become dysfunctional and permanently damaged.

IN CONCLUSION

Alcohol is not an antidote for snake bite. It does not prevent colds. It is of no value in treating frostbite. It does not relieve fatigue or shock. It does not enhance sexual performance —it may release inhibitions, but it impairs the follow-through. As a drug, its sedative value is offset by the toxic effect it has on the brain, heart, liver, and gastrointestinal tract. Medically speaking, there is no possible benefit which can be derived from the use of alcohol internally.
We could argue this point till the days are done, we could say that Jesus drank it why cannot we also drink it, people do this without understanding the difference of potency between the two. It really does not matter, what does matter is that God tells us not to be drunk! How does the bible define drunk? Does anyone know at what point alcohol takes affect on the body?

Paul said that all things are lawful, but not helpful. How does alcohol help you? We see that Paul told Timothy to take a little wine, but this was purely for his stomach not for his mental state. What profit does drinking even one beer have in a Christians life?
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

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Post by foc » Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:15 am

First of all the "wine" of the bible in the first century is not the same wine that people drink today. This is a fact that can be concluded after a little investigation. However most who advocate such bad habits would not take the time to investigate that.
What, was it some new space age wine, then?
Sorry friend, but wine is wine is wine.

The Jews would have had to have had a crop growing continually round the year in constant production to keep from every drinking fermented wine becuase it doesnt take long at all for fermentation to start unless someone claims they had refridgerators ;)

Personally, Im not impressed with all the arguments and points, one single verse blows them ALL away, Im afraid.


Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Conclusions from that verse.
1. FERMENTED 'wine' MUST be the topic there.
2. There is NO prohibition listed, otherwise it would be impossible to even be drunk.
3. EXCESS/drunkeness is what is condemned, directly inferring that FERMENTED wine IS being consumed and is NOT prohibited.

You can thru another 4000 word essay up there chap, it doesnt make any difference.
With so many warnings against drunkeness in scripture we KNOW FACTUALLY that drinking of FERMENTED wine WAS going on and WAS permitted completely, not being defined as 'sin' in any way.

This nonsense that this was some other kind of miracle wine just doesnt fit the facts involved and no amount of handwaving away those facts is going to change them, Im afraid.

You have a nice day now, y'heah :)

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Post by JSM17 » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:27 pm

Where in scripture do you find a positive notion of drinking wine? Jesus in John ch.2 turned water into wine, is Jesus now a bartender? After all these people drank all the wine that had been set out before this miracle, they must have been ripped because then Jesus turns 120 Gallons of water into what you are telling me is the same wine as today. I believe that either this was a huge party or these people were ripped and Jesus was just helping them along in getting even more ripped right?

No one has said anything about miracle wine or new space age wine, it is a matter of study, understanding and logic.

What about beer or whiskey? Does God advocate all strong drink or just wine, would the wine of today be concidered strong drink according to the standard of Jesus' day?

Is there any reason other than being a closet drunk or wanting to get a BUZZ that anyone who claims to be a Christian could do these things with a good conscience? Besides why play with fire, when you take a chance of getting burned! No pun intended

You wrote:
It is my view that drinking wine is permitted, but it is excess that is forbidden.
At what point is excess? When you start feeling BUZZED, when you start to alter your mind, what about the man who get use to sipping wine and builds a tolerance, and before you know it he is drinking three glasses, is that still OK?


What about being an example to other Christians.Do you not have that reponsibility?

Rm 14:21
21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
NKJV

Many will go astray because another brother sipps a little wine now and then. Not all things are profitable!

Even if I thought it was ok to drink, I certainly would not allow it to become a stumbling block to other Christians, that would mean that I would have to do it in private, so much for being social.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

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Post by foc » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:55 pm

I had a longer post, but decided to delete it and post what is simply a clear refutation to your erroneous views.
you either accept Gods word or you push your personal agendas instead.
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess;

Conclusions from that verse.
1. FERMENTED 'wine' MUST be the topic there.
2. There is NO prohibition listed, otherwise it would be impossible to even be drunk.
3. EXCESS/drunkeness is what is condemned, directly inferring that FERMENTED wine IS being consumed and is NOT prohibited.

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Post by foc » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:28 pm

What about being an example to other Christians.Do you not have that reponsibility?
So what are we discussing here, poster....that wine is unlawful or our responsibility to others?
Make up your mind what the issue is here.

Either wine is UNLAWFUL in Gods word and Ill require PROOF of that fact....or.....it is NOT unlawful and we have responsibilities where wine is concerned...including the responsibility towards our WEAKER, LESS MATURE brethren who might stumble if they see someone else take an innocent drink of wine.

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Post by JSM17 » Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:02 pm

Facts are facts, if we are going to talk about whether somethings is permitable, we should concider the scriptural conscequences of how we will affect other Christians. I didn't think I had to start another thread just to state the negative outcomes and affects of drinking.

I still would like to know what purpose it serves. Do you like the taste? Do you like the buzz? Why drink it? Do you have a bad stomach like Timothy?

In today's day and age alcohol serves one purpose to selve serve, is that what we are called to be? Alcohol is a drug just like all the rest of them, thats why it is called poison. I understand that the legthy article by the doctor was intimidating but it served the purpose of showing of how great of a negative affect that alcohol has on the body, even if it is just a glass of poison, its still poison.

The wine you drink today is concidered strong drink !
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

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Post by foc » Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:23 pm

JSM17 wrote:Facts are facts,
Yes, they are. And I suggest you learn to accept the hard fact that scripture does not prohibit the drinking of fermented wine.
if we are going to talk about whether somethings is permitable, we should concider the scriptural conscequences of how we will affect other Christians. I didn't think I had to start another thread just to state the negative outcomes and affects of drinking.
I understand the issue, but you seem to be hopping around trying to cover the next base when one is taken from you.

Please answer the questoin with yes or no.
Is the use of fermented wine PROHIBITED for the believer in Gods word?

If you cannot answer that plainly when there is a clear answer in scripture, then it shows me that you know precisely what the answer actually is, but would rather push your agenda instead.

That said, Ill give a response.
NO. the use of fermented wine is NOT prohibited in Gods word.
There are MANY passages about the evils of wine, but we also know factually that many men, such as myself, can drink a glass of wine and not turn into this 'closet drunk' you are so worried about.

After the doctors got me addicted to morphine a few years ago because of the pain I was in for months *I* broke that addiction with no help from anyone. Wine is hardly going to be much of a challenge after kicking a morphine addiction on my own.
there are MANY people just like me...there is no chance they are going to let a drink of wine turn them into some wine crazed lunatic foaming at the mouth for the next drink.


Yes, we need to be careful around WEAKER brethren who are not strong enough in the Lord yet to handle seeing a brother or sister take a drink of wine, but that is another issue altogether and does NOT determine the lawfulness of fermented wine and its use by the believer.


I still would like to know what purpose it serves. Do you like the taste? Do you like the buzz? Why drink it? Do you have a bad stomach like Timothy?
Personally I cannot drink. The last time I had a glass of wine a few times around meal time I ended up having my hands about 75% paralyzed for about 4 months because of this genetic disease I have that is triggered very quickly by any kind of alcohol.

Do I like the taste?
Of some wines, yes.

Do I like the buzz?
There was a time many years ago when Id have said yes to that, but not now.

Why 'would' I drink it?
Because as a believer in Christ I am permitted to do so as long as it is not causing someone else to stumble and Im not being excessive.
Any information beyond that is frankly none of your business.

Is my stomach like Timothy's?
Id venture a guess that nothing Timothy could have experienced in this lifetime with his stomach could compare to the pain Ive lived thru from severe neurological damage due to the severe attacks of Acute Intermitant Porphyria that I have.
Do I need to have an excuse of having a bad stomach like Timothy to drink wine ...for 'permissoin' ?
No, I dont.


In today's day and age alcohol serves one purpose to selve serve, is that what we are called to be?
Spoken like a true self-righteous pharisee who condemns others while Im betting he himself has some sin he is not disclosing for us here.

Drinking wine is not a sin....deal with it.

Alcohol is a drug just like all the rest of them, thats why it is called poison.
I suggest you study your facts out friend. Red wine has its benefits and frankly, do you think that bigmac you had at lunch last week could be defined as 'poison' by some standards given the absolutely UNhealthy things it had in it?

Please, I had to use Vitamin B-12 for my nervous system and even THAT is a neuro-toxin when taken to EXCESS.
I understand that the legthy article by the doctor was intimidating but it served the purpose of showing of how great of a negative affect that alcohol has on the body, even if it is just a glass of poison, its still poison.

The wine you drink today is concidered strong drink !
And the 'wine' they drank back then WAS fermented, friend, or NO one would be being warned not to be drunk.
Are you calling God a drug/poison pusher for not PROHIBITING fermented wine?


Are we thru here because I have REAL work to do on my website and you have yet to show anything that is actually relevant to FERMENTED wine being unlawful in Gods word. Mostly what youve done is distract and dodge the point, frankly.

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Post by JSM17 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:10 am

Notice the text of John 2:9, 10 “When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.”

a. The governor was able to discern between the two. Is this characteristic of those who have “well drunk” of an alcoholic beverage?

b. Notice that also they were drinking freely. Would Jesus really give an alcoholic beverage to those who were drinking freely to induce a state of drunknness?

c. These very facts indicate that in fact, this was not alcohol, but very good tasting grape juice.

Notice the text of John 2:9, 10 “When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.”

a. The governor was able to discern between the two. Is this characteristic of those who have “well drunk” of an alcoholic beverage?

b. Notice that also they were drinking freely. Would Jesus really give an alcoholic beverage to those who were drinking freely to induce a state of drunknness?

c. These very facts indicate that in fact, this was not alcohol, but very good tasting grape juice.

Prvb 20:1
Wine is a mocker,
Strong drink is a brawler,
And whoever is led astray by it is not wise.
NKJV

Jesus turned 120 Gallons of water into wine, in which before hand they were drinking freely, were they drunk? Was Jesus advocating drinking wine FREELY?

The Greek expression, paroinos, means “given to wine, drunken” (Thayer, Greek Lexicon, p. 490). To read into that some sort of license for moderate drinking is an irresponsible stretch. Would an admonition against “drug addiction” grant any measure of comfort to someone wishing to “smoke pot” recreationally? Would such a warning be interpreted as a license for the moderate use of cocaine?

Moreover, Paul’s restriction regarding deacons—that they must not be “addicted to much wine” (1 Tim. 3:8 – NASB; Thayer, p. 546)—similarly provides no permission for the moderate use of recreational alcohol in today’s world of distilled spirits—which are far, far stronger than were the fermented beverages of the primitive age. The fact is, within the same context, church officers are charged to be “sober” (nepho), which signifies “to be free from the influence of intoxicants” (Vine, Expository Dictionary, p. 746).

Josephus employs the word nephaleos (“sobriety”) of the priests, as they functioned in their appointed roles, commenting that they “are [not] permitted to drink wine” (Antiquities 3.12.2). The word literally means “holding no wine” (Bromiley, ed., Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 634).

In context, it denotes the “abstemious lifestyle” required by apostolic instruction (Verbrugge, Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 863).

It is entirely possible that the use of “wine” in the Timothy and Titus contexts may be an example of the figure known as synecdoche, a form of which is when a specific object is made to stand for a general truth. For example, “bread” (Mt. 6:11) stands for food of any sort. It is mentioned specifically, however, because it was commonly eaten at meals.

Accordingly, moderation in “wine” may simply stand for the principle of self-control in at large. It is interesting how certain terms appear to balance one another. The bishop must be “temperate” (1 Tim. 3:2), and ” . . .deacons in like manner . . .not given to much wine” (3:8); similarly, ” . . .women in like manner . . .[are to be] temperate” (3:11). In Titus 2:2, men are to “be temperate” and “women likewise . . .not . . .enslaved to much wine” (2:3).

Thus “wine,” because it was a common beverage, may be a specific illustration for moderation in general—without any allusion as to whether or not it involved fermentation.

The New Testament represents the abuses of wine in a series of words that depict stages in transgression.

First, there is potos (rendered “banqueting” – 1 Pet. 4:3). It denotes a drinking party, but as R.C. Trench noted, “not of necessity excessive . . .but giving occasion for excess”—and yet it is condemned! This aptly describes the modern cocktail scene.

Second, there is oinophlugia, which is rendered “wine-drinking” (Berry, Greek-English Interlinear, 1 Pet. 4:3), or “excess of wine” (KJV). Trench says that this word “marks a step in advance of methe [drunk]” (Synonyms of the New Testament, p. lxi).

No conscientious Christian would want to dabble with beverage alcohol—in any of these degrees
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

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Post by foc » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:01 am

Here is the prohibition.


Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess;

Anything added beyond that is YOUR false teaching that you are giving as extra-biblical instruction.
Teach that AS your own viewpoint and your are fine.
Teach it as Gods own word and you are preaching falsehoods

Conclusions from that verse.
1. FERMENTED 'wine' MUST be the topic there.
2. There is NO prohibition listed, otherwise it would be impossible to even be drunk.
3. EXCESS/drunkeness is what is condemned, directly inferring that FERMENTED wine IS being consumed and is NOT prohibited.


Anything I add beyond this point will be to simply repeat what is said here, so you decide if you want to talk to yourself or not.

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Post by foc » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:35 am

Ahh, I finally figured out how to stop watching this topic and getting those annoying emails.
It really shouldnt set it to watching a thread just because I post in it by default.

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Post by JSM17 » Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:04 pm

Often efforts are made to justify the light intake or consumption of alcoholic beverages based on the KJV rendering of Paul. The claim is advanced that since Paul places emphisis and on "excess", the imbibing of alcoholic beverages in lesser quantities is permissible. The conclusion is not warranted however for "excess" has reference to RESULTS, not quantity. The term, asotia, from which the expression comes, is rendered "riot" in Titus 1:6 and 1 Peter 4:4, and as an adverb is redered "riotous" in Luke 15:13. It is also rendered "riot" in the American Standard Version of the alleged proof text. As employed, the term has reference to an incorrigible, abandoned, and dissolute life. Because of such effects therefore persons should not inbibe alcoholic beverages to any degree!
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

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Post by foc » Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:38 pm

JSM17 wrote:Often efforts are made to justify the light intake or consumption of alcoholic beverages based on the KJV rendering of Paul. The claim is advanced that since Paul places emphisis and on "excess", the imbibing of alcoholic beverages in lesser quantities is permissible.
guy, you can ramble on for 100 more pages for all anyone cares.
The FACT IS that there is NO prohibiton to consuming wine in Gods word....FACT !

You can either learn to live with that FACT from Gods word, or you can push YOUR agenda because YOU personally arent able to handle a drink, I assume, and therefore must project your own weakness for drink and weakness of faith, onto everyone else.

IF and when you actually find something from GODS WORD that PROHIBITS FERMENTED wine consumtion you can reach me here
foc@assembly-ministries.org

Until then I really dont have the time for ranting back and forth with you over an issue you simply do not have a leg to stand in.

there is NO prohibition for drinking fermented wine in His word.
Learn to cope with that fact as I had to do, and then you might end up being able to approach this issue from some other intelligible direction
The conclusion is not warranted however for "excess" has reference to RESULTS, not quantity. The term, asotia, from which the expression comes, is rendered "riot" in Titus 1:6 and 1 Peter 4:4, and as an adverb is redered "riotous" in Luke 15:13. It is also rendered "riot" in the American Standard Version of the alleged proof text. As employed, the term has reference to an incorrigible, abandoned, and dissolute life. Because of such effects therefore persons should not inbibe alcoholic beverages to any degree!
Nice try but EXCESS isnt the word we're worried about, DRUNK is as that is what Paul is calling 'excess'. Excess isnt the defined 'sin' in that passage...being DRUNK is.

Since you want to play greek scholar...lets, shall we?

Eph 5:18 And2532 be not drunk3182, 3361 with wine,3631 wherein1722, 3739 is2076 excess;810 but235 be filled4137 with1722 the Spirit;4151
"drunk"
G3182
μεθύσκω
methuskō
1) to intoxicate, make drunk
2) to get drunk, become intoxicated

"wine"
G3631
οἶνος
oinos
oy'-nos
A primary word (or perhaps of Hebrew origin [H3196]); “wine” (literally or figuratively): - wine.

"excess"
G810
ἀσωτία
asōtia
1) an abandoned, dissolute life
2) profligacy, prodigality
There you go readers.
Paul shows that the 'excess' is what? being DRUNK.
and what is the definition of "DRUNK"(which IS the excess Paul speaks of)

1) to intoxicate, make drunk
2) to get drunk, become intoxicated


Poster, it doesnt matter how many times you try to twist this DRUNKNESS is what is EXCESS and what is PROHIBITED.
There can be NO drunkess at ALL *IF* no one is ever permitted to drink wine.
Your arguments dont even classify as such at this point. Its merely deflection of FACTS.
And this little deflection from the relevant word 'drunk' to try to focus on 'excess' is pretty easy to see and understand as to motivation.
Of course no Christian wants to live riotous lifestyle. Precisely why one would abstain from being DRUNK. ;)

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Post by JSM17 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:55 pm

Very well mister Tipton, I will bother you no longer about this matter, perhaps we can talk about speaking in tongues or something?
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

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Post by foc » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:16 pm

JSM17 wrote:Very well mister Tipton, I will bother you no longer about this matter, perhaps we can talk about speaking in tongues or something?
interesting.
did you find anything you like on the website?

There probably isnt any reason for you and I to discuss tongues.
Either you believe like I do in which case we'd only end up stroking each others egos....or you disagree with what I believe and, seeing that that is another topic Ive spent many years on, I dont think anything youd present would change my views and so we'd be right about the same place we are on the wine issue...

Ive unsuscribed to this thread twice now...what do I have to do to not get those intrusive emails every time someone posts here?

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Post by JSM17 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:34 pm

I believe there are two possible ways to stop the e-mails, you can go to your profile and click "no" on the preference section that says to notify you when there is a response. I am not sure whether the bottom of the "post a reply" also gives you the option of notification of reply. Hope that helps.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...

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