Messianic Jews, Instrumental Music, Replacement Theology, and the Distinction between the 1st and 2nd Covenants to the Hebrews

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And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:18-20)

First of all I thank you for your articles they are very well done .I enjoy the Calvin articles which is helping me teach my friend.However I am Jewish a Messianic believer.Musical instruments were commanded in the Tanach and the Jews who started the Church continued to play and Sing.They were in Mid East Israel 2000 years ago whoshiping in Homes and Synogagues(Jacob-James) 2:2 Check the Greek the word is Synagogue. Your verse that all Churches of Christ use is Eph 5:18-20. Remember Ephesiana was written 61 years after the church was started. What did the congregation do for 30 some years ??? They were Jews and years later at Acts 10 Goyim were saved Gentiles. They did as they always did they played their Mid-East instruments and sang. Please do not start a Religion from the teaching of Barton Stone and A.Campbell as well as people have started a false doctrine from a 27 year old Frenchman Calvin.I really enjoy your other topics but now i understand your members of the C of C who most I have talked to believe God is finished with the Jews and This Denomination teaches Replacement Theology which is false read Romans 11:1 I am not saying you believe this but many C of C do. The First Church of Christ or Synaogoge of Messiah Yeshua (Jesus is an English name)Joshua would be His true English Name Jesus came from the Greek word Iesus Used Musical instruments. The C of C because of B.Stone and A.Campbell has went the way of Alexander and Allorgorize when it sutes them as in revelation The Picture of the New Jerusalem the new city we will live is an actual place will have Trumpets Harps and the Menorah frut on trees. I do not believe in this Kentuckien's false doctrine about Instruments of music. Remember thes Church was all jewish until Acts 10 then the Gentiles chimed in with the Jewish Pastors all was ok until the Gentiles took over. Again I reall enjoy your site it is very helpful.But please consider I am messiah Jewish I do not stop being Jewish because I have accepted my Jewish Messiah Rabbi Yeshua John 1:40 I write this in Love you may not agree but please consider and read the book 'Our Father Abraham " By Marvin Wilson

[m273p15c]

Thanks for the encouragement and expression of concern.

You mentioned several points that would be worthy of earnest Bible study. It seems to me that you touched on these points of difference or interest:

• Instrumental music in the Tanach and early Jewish-Christian church
• The role of Jews in present-day Christianity
• "Replacement Theology"
• Jesus and Instrumental Music
• Interpretation of the book of Revelation
• Gentile take-over of the church

I am not familiar with some of these points. And, I would like for us to come to unity in God's Word, as Jesus prayed (John 17:20-22). However, given that you have brought up so many points, may I ask that you choose one, the most fundamental one in your opinion, and present a couple of passages or facts that prove your point?

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,

m273p15c

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Really when you have time I would covet your view on each subject.I want truth anything else is a waste of our time. before Calvin was born there was no Calvinistic teaching.before Stone and Campbell the modern day C of C did not exist.If you say you are the C of C at the Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) well you cannot be because you are not Jewish .the (Synagogue-Assembly -Church-Meeting Saints-Congregation)as you know it did not start until Acts 10. even then All Pastors were Jewish.The Pagans were new in the faith and would not have been mature for years to be Elders 1 Tim. 3 and Titus 1 .I want to say we agree on many things such a Immersion which is Mikva (Baptism.) For this I commend you. Now that I know you are of the C of C persuasion ,I want to say I have many friends who attend the C of C. I have found a very shallow knowledge of scripture ,by these members,,you are an exception. Most all they know is Acts 2:38 .Excuse me this an exaggerationbut you know what I mean.Very little knowledge of the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith. Most of them when asked what our L-rds Name is ?their reply is Jesus ! The word Jesus did not exist ,English did not exist. Most all c of c members do not know the real Name of our L-rd Rabbi Yeshua the Messiah. He has One Name and that Name is above All names Yeshua ! His Hebrew Name all other names are translations.Now let me say nothing wrong with saying Isa,Iesus,Yaso,Jesus,,but the Name the Father gave Him is Yeshua.Most members of the C of C are in the dark to who this Rabbi is. John 1:49 You may want to open your Greek new Testament to Luke 24:1 English says on the first day of the week. what was written down in the Greek 'On the first of Sabbaths" also Acts 12:4 "Easter" KJV the NKJV took this Pagan word out put the Biblical word 'passover ' back in I am sure you know this already so I am now preaching to the Choir. Oh Oh Choir? we are all His Choir. Ha ha thought I would through that in .C of C s do not have Choirs. But wait a minute some now do have choirs and some are now using the piano and other instruments,,,Yes times seem to be changing even in the C of C.Florida college and Harding college are changing,,the young people are leaving the Church at alarming rate.A C of C preacher told me that. "WE have lost the youth" Many members now are over sixty Hmmmmmmmmmmm ! Anyway I want to say just because my family is Jewish we are not better than you because you were born Goyim-gentile.But really you are no longer a Gentile because Gentile means of the Nations which are Pagan and outside israel. Eph 2 states that now you Gentiles who were in Darkness and without G-d are now brought close and now are citizens of Israel.Romans 9,10,11, and 12 explains you being grafted in. When the door was open to the Gentiles ,in Acts 15 a meeting had to be called to see what we are going to do with these people in the Church of All Jews ! Many Many members said they had to become Jews.But after the meeting it was voted ed that No the Pagans who are now believers Do Not have to become Jews but there are four things they have to do if they want to be part of the Yehudim Meshikim- The Christian Community. Most of the Members of the C of C cannot even answer this.I asked one member of the Cof C Do you believe that Yeshua is both King and Priest They answered yes. I posed an answer as would the Hasadim Jews would answer. Yes Yeshua can be a King because He is in the line of David BUT he cannot be a priest because He is from the tribe of Judah. Only a man from the tribe of Lievi can be a priest. I have asked hundreds of members of all faiths and many many members from the C of C. No one has answered me.I am sure you know. The answer is found in the book of Tehellim-Psalms .Rabbi Yeshua the Messiah was made Priest after the order of Melchizedek !
I am spending time with you because I feel you are knowledgeable and I covet your view on most of your topics.My husbund and I took the hand of a Pastor infront of his congregation and walked him to the little bowl they use to sprinkle.1,400 members were in attendance we live in Chicago My husbund read Acts 8 Two men walked down into the water two men walked out. The pasto could not say it does not matter because befor we did this we asked is the Bible the Pattern we should use above all other books .He Said Yes ! After my husbund finished the teaching on Jewish Roots the Pastor had many many members asking why they are not Immersing ????? Dinner was served after church I also brought Luthers book 'Acompend of Luther's Theology" Luther said Make No mension of my name" The members were in the dark to most of what we shared with them that day.Also the Judensau is still on the Whittenburg Church.We were there in Germany and we saw it.We asked the Pastors to tear it down and they replied it has been there since the 15th century and it will stay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judensau

So much for Gentile Christian Love ! Maybe I can raise money for a similar 100 ft statue, except of Luther??? Put it in dowantown Chicago maybe on the side of a Messianic (Synogague(Church) You already know what would happen to me,, In Jail and lawsuits from everyone ACLU . Oh well nice to talk to you Please give me your view Oh let me use the terminology the Bible's teaching on each of my topics at your leasure no rush. Ibelieve each deserves its own merrit. One C of C told me that there are no more Jews and Gentiles. I had to correct the misuse of Scripture. The verse also says also no longer Men and females !!! Last time I checked WE Are Different ! There are Men and there are females,as well as there are Jews and Gentiles. The meaning of the verse is it does not matter what we are, we come to Messiah Yeshua the same way.I am sure you already know this. Have a great day.
Baruch Ha ba B' Shem Adoni Baruch B" Shem Rab Yeshua
Melok Melokim Adon Adoim
John 1:49

[m273p15c]

While I chew on this, may I ask few other questions? I am simply trying to better understand your position.

• What is your standard? The Bible?
• If you hold to the Bible, what language or translations do you hold to be authoritative? For example, must I read Hebrew and Greek to understand and decide God's will for me? Or, can I generally use an combination of English translations and be OK? (I generally work from the NKJV, although I frequently compare translations, and I look to the original Hebrew and Greek, whenever necessary.)
• Do you believe the Peshitta to be more authoritative than the Koine Greek manuscripts? If so, why?
• Do you believe that Jesus foretold of a coming kingdom? If so, has it come? When did it, or when will it come?
• How did Christ's coming change things for the Jews, especially modern Jews living after 70 AD?

Incidentally, I have no ill will against the Jews. In fact, as much as a Gentile can, my sentiments favor Paul's expression in Romans 9:1-5; 10:1-4. I also would condemn any anti-semitic expressions regardless of who expressed them. There is no excuse for racism among Christians (Acts 10:34-35).

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,

m273p15c

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My Standard is the Holy Bible the tanach and the Ha Brit hadasha Old and New Testament. Our English rendition NKJV is ok with a few exceptions KJV Easter -Ishtar pagan ! Luke 24:1 Jacob(James0 2:2 meeting is used because the Biblical word Synagogue must have sounded to Jewish.One does not have to learn Hebrew or Greek but it helps if you do.The Complete Jewish Bible is what I use along with the NKJV as well as the Greek and Hebrew there is a Aramaic N.T but I do not have one yet. I do have the Spanish and Latin and Syrian.No the Peshitta is not more authoritative although it may beer out some understanding such a Camel through in eye of a needle can also mean rope in Aramaic. Yeshua's Kingdom has come because He ushered it in after the Resurrection.But He will someday come back and set foot on the Mt of Olives ,I was there in 2009 was Married in Cana of Galilee Immersed in the Yardent-Jordan river.After 70 AD ? Well which Jews are you talking about? The Unbelieving Jews or the Yehudim meshikim ? Believing Jews?
All Jews were scattered the believing Jews who started the Church went to Pella on the orders of Rabbi Yeshua the Messiah. As a believing Jew my Husband cannot trust in his Meliah circumcision all have to come to the belief and faith of the saving blood of Messiah Yeshua. He alone is the King of Israel. John 1:49 We vdo have good interaction ,pray we both may gleen something from this interaction.

Shalom, Daughter of Zion Servant of Messiah Yeshua

[m273p15c]

Your response provoked another question or two.

What do you mean by "the Resurrection"? Do you mean Yeshua's (Jesus') bodily resurrection (circa 30 AD)? Or, do you have something more encompassing in mind?

Please bear with my terminology. How do you decide which parts of the Old Testament to follow? I know there are some parts you can't follow, because of the temple's destruction. But, do you have line of distinction beyond that? Do you offer sacrifices, incense, etc.?

I'm just trying to get a better understanding. Once I do, I will try to arrange a friendly response.

Thanks!

m273p15c

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And in a short span of time 300 years the Church was Killing Jews,,What went wrong ? Read this book and our hands are stained with blood two books every Christian should read,,It will change your life ! You will cry many tears. After reading these books please read "Christianity is Jewish" an excellent book on how to share the Faith with Jewish people. I have bough these three and handed them out to people.Please read these books ,,Please.

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Yeshua was killed during Passover week not the Pagan Ishtar-Easter date on the Roman Calander and spring -Equniox. He was raised on First fruits. He is Messiah our High priest our Yom Yippur he conqured death when he walked out of the tomb.Prier to that he was under the law of Moshe-Moses The New Covenant starts when He walked out of the Tomb because He is the Fullfillment.He alone is Passover ! He alone is Firstfruits,He alone is Rosh HashannahThe Trumpet will sound and the Lion of Judah will return ,He alone is Yom Kippur because He is made High Priest and will carry His own blood into the Holy of Holies,He alone is the Feast of Tabernaccles he will return and Tabernacle with us.The tanach was given to the jewish people but do you know that the new (Covenant-Testament) is Given to the Jewish people ? the New Covenant is a Covenant between G-d and the Jewish People. Jer. 31:31 because of this verse as well as Isa.53 I becabe a believer.The N.T.is

100% as Ruth the Gentiles can belong and be saved if they accept the Messiah and King of Israel by faith believe and be Immersed . Thus the gentiles are Grafted in with us and we both are One New Man.both Jew and Goyim-Gentile in Yeshua the Messiah. Many many people do not know that the N.T. is a Jewish covenant to the Jewish people.The Gospels are really still the Old testament in Transition Yeshua was teaching a more perfect Torah because the Tanach was a shadow of things to come.Yeshua was teaching I am here.I am teaching you what was promised as a Covenant or testament in Jer.31:31 Most of my Jewish family missed it but ! many accepted it even some in the Sanhedren these Jews that accepted it went on to form the first in Jerusalem. We have no need for animal sacrificies yeshua is the last Lamb once and for all.The third Temple will be Built and the Counterfit Messiah (Anti-Christ) will appear.2 Thes.2:1-4 Scripture says that the Rapture or the catching up or taken away will not happen until the Counterfit Christ appears. Remember the word Rapture is not in scripture but the catching up is the same thing. remember Yeshua as well as all orthodox Jewish people kept Hebrew time. Sunset to Sunset. Thus yeshua was not killed on Friday as the Roman Catholic would have you believe. He was killed on Wednesday He came out of the Tomb Sat.evening at Sun down around 7 or 8PM The 1st day of the week starts Sat.evening The Sabbath is over Sat evening and (Sunday) Which is the 1st of the week starts on Sat. evening. What the Catholic Church did not understand is that During the Passover everyday is a Sabbath as well as the weekly Shabbot. So Rabbi yeshua came out of the Tomb at say 7 :00 pm Sat. evening then count three 24 hr. days back you get Wednesday very simple.

Shalom !

[m273p15c]

I appreciate your answers. So, would an uncircumcised Gentile man, who wanted to become a Christian, have to be circumcised? I am just trying to understand your concept of the NT being a "Jewish" covenant. Must Gentiles become Jews to be grafted into the olive tree?

What do you think about the epistle to the Hebrews?

Incidentally, I also do not observe the religious holidays of Easter or Christmas, since they are a Roman Catholic marriage of pagan feasts and Christian myth - without Biblical basis or authority.

Thanks!

m273p15c

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What do we do with the first covenant ? I am a Messianic Jew. Even with in our ranks people do different things. Yeshua is the fullfillment of everything and the New Covenant is a continuation of the Old. Remember knothing to do with the Gentiles yet.We follow Gods diet but animal sacrifices are no more.We obey the Sabbath because God instituted this in Genises and carried this through the Ten Commandments. the first church met on the Sabbath in local Synagogues read all of Acts. I believe as they closed out the Sabbath with the Havdalla service and brought in the 1st of the week(Sunday)at about 7:00 pm Sat evening they layed by in store searched the Scriptures played and sang songs as thy always have.God did not have to retell us to play instruments He told us this in Tehillim we have good memories. Remember All Scripture is profitable for correction etc that the man of G-d will be perfect...What All Scripture were they refering to ???? The only Scripture they had the Hebrew Scripture Scrolls of Scripture the 1st Covenant. We do not eat Filth we eat what G-d said is food the other animals are created a garbage collectors. And yes Peters vision was not about food as the Gentile Church would have you believe ,the vision was about the cleansing of the Pagan Gentiles at that moment a knock at the door ,,,who?? But Gentiles Romans stood at the door of Simon the tanner and kefa -Peter was there on the roof doing his daily Jewish prayer laying Teffila-prayer.most of the old has been fullied by Yeshua. The Law was not nailed to the Cross " Sin " was ! Gods Law stands as it did then however now its tougher we as Jews under the Old Covenant layed with people in the sex act and that was sin now Rabbi Yeshua says if you think it youve sinned.Alerady in your heart. Gentiles look at this whole thing through Gentile eyes. You should look through Mid eastern eyes as being Grafted in to our Covenant remember the Old and New are both Jewish,covenants by G-d to the Jewish people Gentiles are the wild branch grafted in Thus Gentiles are the Guests.Paul bears this out in Romans 9,10,11,12 Don't get the big head don't boast gentiles ,,but that is exactly what has happened. Acts 15 voted four things Gentiles have to do to belong in the Christian Community with us Jews. Note keeping Kosher food laws is Not one of them however the Jews continue with business as usual .We as they the Apostles,the Jewish Deciples the Jewish Pastors-Elders kept the Kosher dietary custom as well as keeping the Sabbath having the Synagogue-Church service. It was Rome who moved the service to "" Sunday Morning"" It was Rome who changed the Ressurection observance from Passover to Pagan Ishtar-Easter. I believe the verse is in Zach. or Zeph. that says when Messiah Yeshua returns and is King and resides in Jerusalem everyone must come to Jerusalem during the Feast of Tabernacles if they do not no rain will fall thus they will go hungry. This is yet to come.Also when He comes back Sacrifices will begin again.This cannot mean Animal Sacrifices cause Yeshua is the final Lamb,,so it may mean a sacrifice of praise and worship.I have a harp made for me in Jerusalem.Do you know after 2000 years ,,20 years ago Harrari started making the Davidic Harp once again .Israel commissoned him to build the Harp for the nex Temple. Enjoy this link close your eyes and listen and emangin 2500 years ago.

http://www.harrariharps.com/files/welcome.php

Jer.31:31
Matt. 10:5 Yeshua said Do Not take the Gosple to the Gentiles but only go to the Jews !
Matt 15 " My Father has Only sent me to the Jewish people
Acts 10 1st gentile saved
Acts 15 Gentiles Must be Jews,,, this was voted down Jacob(James) stood up,,No they do not ,,But 4 things the Gentiles Must do.

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I am using the term Jewish New testament or Jewish Covenant because it is Jer.31:31 This has not changed just because many jews have not accepted it. No we cannot and must not Judahise the N.T which means try to impose or try and say Gentiles must become Jews.You being a Gentile have been grafted into the Jewish Covenant you are no longer a Gentile meaning of the Pagan Nations you are no longer a Pagan you are a Citizen of Israel and a sead of Abraham with all the blessings of being adopped. So if there are Gentiles in your Church they are not saved if they become saved then they are no longer Gentiles ,in darkness without G-d They are adopped into the Family grafted into the Jewish Covenant given to the Jewish People Remember you are the Guest we are the Natural Branches. Now Please dont think I mean this by you being inferior I do not but this is the layout of G-ds plan. The Church is supposed to be like Ruth,,I mean the gentiles who come to faith. Ruth a Moabite said to Namoi Your people will be my peole Your G-d will be My G-d. Nowadays most gentiles have missed this point. You have joined yourself to a Jewish Covenant. You do not have to become physical Natural Jewish you have become adopped to Israel you are now a Spiritual Jew.

[m273p15c]

Thanks for the explanation!

[m273p15c]

Thanks for the additional explanation. I need to think and meditate on this, so I can ascertain our common ground and the most fundamental point of disagreement and start there.

I will be out of contact for a few days as I digest this and juggle some other responsibilities. I appreciate your manifest kindness and straightforwardness.

Oh, one last question: I have spoken with other Jewish people, who also believed that Yeshua (Jesus) was the Messiah. However, they were most unkind. Basically, because I was not a Jew, I was not qualified to respond to anything they could say or think. They were adamant that I work from the Hebrew and Aramaic texts or give up. They used the term "Natzaraya", I believe, although that may not be the proper designation. Of course, I would not judge all of that sect by my limited experience. ... How would you describe yourself, differentiating yourself from other Jews, who also believe in Yeshua but yet are still very different. I don't suppose you would offer a quick tutorial on the various, significant Jewish-Christian sects for an outsider?

Thanks again. I look forward to talking with you soon.

m273p15c

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I just wanted to say thank you for your time and comments.We Journey each day to gain more insight about Rabbi Yeshua the Messiah Son of G-D and King of Israel. John 1:49
Take a look at the 1st Century Church of Christ in Jerusalem Israel.

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Where did the word " Church " come from ?? I thought this was an interesting article thought I would share with you.
Have a great day !

http://ecclesia.org/truth/ekklesia.html

[m273p15c]

I wanted to get back to our Bible study. First, I want to thank you again for all your patient explanations. They have been very helpful.

Second, I still have several questions. I am not looking to disagree with you. As I said previously, we should be looking for unity in Christ, as He sought and prayed. Although I am pleased that we agree on several points, such as baptism, I am still concerned about our differences in understanding the covenants and laws, because these have some practical applications. For example, your view on instrumental music seems to be rooted in your understanding of the covenants.

Rather than focusing on instrumental music, or any other point of application, I would like to discuss the fundamental difference: Is the Old Law still binding today? Does that seem fair and sensible?

For starters, what do you think about Hebrews, the NT epistle? Do you recognize it as an inspired letter? Specifically, what do you think about this passage?

For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated "king of righteousness," and then also king of Salem, meaning "king of peace," 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually. 4¶ Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. 5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him. 11¶ Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15¶ And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 For He testifies: "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. (Hebrews 7:1-19)

As best as I can tell, the writer is arguing that one change in the law (tribe of the priest, in this case) invalidates the whole - at least, as binding, authoritative law. My understanding is that the OT is still inspired and still extremely valuable as evidence (fulfilled prophecy) and as examples (I Corinthians 10:11; Romans 15:4), but I do not believe that anybody, even physical Jews must follow it as law. In fact, I think it would be a transgression of NT law to follow the OT law, wherever they conflict (for example, instrumental music). I understand that physical Jews can follow the customs of Moses' Law (Romans 14; Acts 21:17-26), but those traditions should obviously not contradict NT law. That's just my explanation. Back on topic...

What do you think of Hebrews 7:12, 18, which states that there was a "changing of the law" and "an annulling of the former commandment"? How can we continue to bind a law that has been changed and annulled?

Maybe one would venture that only the relevant portion of Moses' law as changed or annulled? Although I think the whole law is under discussion, because of the references to priesthood, justification, and hope, please allow me to bring up another passage that, in my mind, clearly invalidates the entire law, even the 10 commandments!

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4¶ Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another -- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." (Romans 7:1-7)

Some people think that Paul only had in mind the "ceremonial law" or "sacrificial laws"; however, please notice one of the commands proscribed in this law: "You shall not covet"! Which law says that? Was that not taken from the 10 commandments of the law given to Moses on Mount Sinai? And, what did Paul say was our relation to that law, by the body of Jesus on the cross? How much more separate can we get than "death"? How much more can we get away from that first "law" than being married to a new husband? Does this mean we are free to do as we please? No! Notice we are now free to marry the risen Christ. Do you suppose He has a law for His bride? Absolutely!

19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; 20 and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law; 22 to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. (I Corinthians 9:19-22)

So, please do not understand that I am arguing for a "lawless Messiah" or any other rebellious form of absolute liberty, because we are still very much under a law toward God - Christ's law, the New Law of the New Covenant.

What do you think? I look forward to hearing from you at your convenience. Thanks for patiently waiting for my reply. I will be sure to do the same, but if you delay a day longer, I'll delete all your email from my "Inbox"! Ha! Ha! Seriously, I am looking forward to hearing from you, but feel free to mediate, pray, and study these verses. I think we both are more interested in well-thought replies than rushed responses. And, if you have other issues that are more pressing, I will understand.

I understand that you may label this as "Replacement Theology" or "Replacement Theory", but please understand that this is what I honestly understand from Scripture - not because of Stone, Campbell, or anyone else. My standard is the Scriptures, and if you can help me to better understand God's will from them, you will be my true friend.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth,

m273p15c

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Shalom m273p15c, Yes I as well have been very busy .We went to the MJAA in Ohio. We saw Paul wilbur live again.The Messianic Worship Music and Song was great and we now have his new CD Desert Rain. Many song that really move people.The Lyrics are wonderful.

http://www.wilburministries.com/

The Diamond Turns is one of my Favorites. I will return this afternoon and try to answer your questions. We agree on many items. Immersion, the structure of the Messiah's Assembly . Pastors-Elders-Bishops etc. the Automous Local Assembly( Church).
But many Goyim-Gentiles have no clue of the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith. They only have been taught from those who departed from the Faith such as Augustien,Chrystosom,Irainus, all the Greeks and then Romans and then the Popes ,Constentine and the wholeof Rome.Then the Reformers starting with Luther.Then Calvin which has effected most of the Denominations.The teaching is when we are born we are already asigned to heavenor Hell.Thus we have no free will.Stone and Campbell came out of this teaching so no wonder most of these Churches are against Israel.
Untill later today please read Jer.31:31 I have just studyed two weeks ago with two families who attended the assembly which is called The Church of Christ. The Holy Bible is the only book we will use .These are my only ground rules. I started with this verse Jer. 31:31. I also asked them to close the Birit HaDashah (New Testament) and teach me about Messiah yeshua (Jesus) from the 1st covenant-Testament. They could not ! I reminded them that when Messiah Yeshua appeared on the road to Emaus this is how He taught. Have a great day and later today I will sit down and try to share this Music issue with you.
Blessings and Shalom.

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Shalom,

Was a busy day .After running around then preparing dinner and getting ready for the Sabbath tomorrow. Having guests at 5:00 P.M. this evening well yes It has been busy.Oh in the middle of all this two Mormon Boys knocked at our door.My Husband invited them in .These boys saw our 5 ft Flag pole with the American Flag on top and the Flag of Israel under. As my husband invited them to sit down in our formal living room they noticed a large Nativity in the coroner about 2 1/2 ft high. Very beautiful.It was a gift. Anyway they were perplexed due to knowing we are Jews and then seeing baby Yeshua with Joseph and Myriam the Mother of our Lord. Wise men were standing around,we have seven wise men .I use this as teaching because more than likely there were many wise men who traveled in that Caravan so far away. These boys were already to teach us.Little did they know ,they would get there feelings hurt. We told them we are Messianic Jews-believing Jews in Messiah. They were unaware that there were Christian Jews. Now by sharing the Jewish Roots of the Christian they were off guard .We directed them to their Book of Mormon and we pulled out our copy .Their eyes got as big as half dollars. Turn in the book of Mormon Alma 7:10 " and Jesus will be born in Jerusalem" Ah,,,,,,, I don't think so ,,,turn to Micah 5:2 Rabbi Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) will be born in Bethlehem and the Gospels confirm that He was. They wanted to leave but we gave them Scriptures and told them their badge was missing our Lords True Name Yeshua. Their Badge said Jesus ,,a man made name from England. These boys were so mixed up I doubt if they ever come back.But we did say come back anytime and bring your Pastors,,But only the Holy Bible will be used. We only showed you the book of Mormon so you could see the error. Anyway, we have been busy. Now tom your question. Law and Music. I understand your members want to distance yourselves from Stone and Campbell but this is impossible .The error of the stance of the Churches of Christ teaching stems from Calvin through them.Although some has been changed and they dropped some but the seed of Replacement Theology started in the 3rd and 4th century. The Greeks came up with the Allegory way of thinking this was not Jewish thought of the Apostles. I wanted you to get acquainted with the 1st lesson of the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith which is found in Jer. 31:31 The 1st Covenant was given to the Jewish People and the 2nd or New Covenant (Testimentum Latin- testament-English) was also given ONLY to the Jews. Now this truth is not taught in most Churches. The Church of Rome has done everything they could to de-Jewish the New testament. So the Gospel ,the New Covenant is Jewish and then the Church was started at the Feast of Shavote-Pentecost All Jews then the Church or Assembly was all Jewish for some years until Acts 10 . A Roman Acts 8 was a Black Jew from Africa reading a Scroll of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Now to your question Law. What you may have missed is that Yeshua commended the Pharisees for trying to keep the Law but Yeshua was condemning the " Oral" Law. The Law in the 1st Covenant exposed what sin is ,remember Yeshua said that All the Law hang on the first two commands .The New Covenant Law is really more difficult. Yeshua expanded the Law higher.For example before an individual could have sex and it would be called Adultery now in this New Covenant one only has to look at a man to lust after him or a man lusting after a girl in their heart and mind. Woh that is very difficult but this is a high standard. We as Jews do not cease being Jews. It was the Gentiles we had to find out what to do with these Pagans .A meeting was called by the Jewish Assembly-Church of Messiah-Christ if you will. After the meeting Jacob stood up ( His Name is Not James (Check your Greek) We cannot bind the Law on these Gentiles but only four things will be required of the Gentiles if they want to be a Part of the Church of Christ ,,,Most gentiles do Not know what these four things are ! Any way God told us Jews all through the Bible to Worship Him with everything .He did not have to tell us again. The verse that Stone and Campbell came up with was written some 60 years after the Church was established Messianic Jews that started the Church were playing and singing and we are doing today as the 1st Church of Christ did which was all Jewish until Acts 10 then Gentiles were able to be saved and be added to the Lords Church .1,800 years later two men decided not to play music and a handful of Kentuckians started a local assembly. This is false teaching as well as very Little knowledge of Scripture as well as very little knowledge of the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith. I am aware of the woe full numbers that have dropped from the Churches of Christ as well as many of the Young people have left.The attendance of Florida,Harding as well as other C of C Colleges have dropped way done. I am not surprised. You see if you look at this whole thing as Gentiles being the guests Romans 9,10,11,12 and that Salvation is of the Jews,,and that the Jewish Root supports you and you do not support the Root then things become much clearer. In the New Jerusalem we will walk streets of Gold. Harps will be handed out. and so on. Yes there are some things John saw that is hard to understand. Yes the first members still kept Sabbath as well as ending the Sabbath service Sat.Evening and brought in the 1st thus were meeting on the 1st Sat.evening after 6: P.M. Hebrew time. Not Sunday morning at 10:00 A.M. After 6:00 PM Sat. it was Sun.morning Hebrew time. I understand this may be new to you and I understand you have been under the Greek and Roman thought and Stone and Campbell one or both were Presbyterians steeped in this way of thinking as well as being steeped in Calvinism.
Paul Wilbur's Desert Rain Album is touching hearts all over the world. Harps are now being made in Jerusalem after 3000 years. I had one made for our family and we went to Jerusalem to pick it up.If you have never been to Israel please go with your family .You will never be the same. We were Immersed in the Yardent (Jordan River) Hebrews was written to the Jews the book of Jacob (James) was written to the 12 tribes of the Jews the entire New testament is Jewish a Covenant to the Jewish people,,Gentiles are now invited to become members of this Jewish covenant and become citizens of Israel Eph.Chapter 2 Please respect our Rabbi Messiah Yeshua and be good guests because in Romans 9,10,11,12 Rabbi Sha'ul (Paulos- Paul) said Hey Gentiles remember you are a wild branch from a tree not supposed to be on the Jewish tree but because of your faith of the Messiah Yeshua King of Israel you are allowed to be grafted in and be saved BUT do not get the big head and try to take over ! OR you will be broken off as the natural Jewish branches were broken off due to unbelief for if God broke off the natural branches which are His chosen people God will surly break off the Gentile wild branches if they try to mistreat Israel or try to take over. Sadly this is what has happened. And how sad two men said we cannot play what God has orthorised in his Word. I hope this helps. I only hope you take a long look and examine how this Faith and Covenant came from in the context of Hebrew eyes as it was written and intended to be. May The God of Israel and Saviour of the world Bless your continued study of His word and may we both find a home in the New Jerusalem. When you get your Harp in the afterawhile look me up and I will show you a few chords we will have along time to play,sing and worship The Father Yeshua the Lamb and the H.S. I understand Greek thought is,,,, well it is just symbolic not really a Harp,,,How Sad !
Blessings and Shalom and Happy New Year. All Praise to Rabbi Yeshua The Messiah John 1:49
Baruch Ha Ba B'Shem Adoni Baruch Messiah Yeshua !
http://www.harrariharps.com/files/home.php

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http://wheresthelinetoseejesus.com/inde ... Itemid=160

A little boy asked,Where's the line to see Jesus ?

Songs by Paul Wilbur Messianic Jew Rabbi Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) John 1:49 King of Israel !

These are some of Paul's new songs from "Desert Rain" The words are beautiful !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JL0SyTOZls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5mC4J0n ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJNJZwaX ... re=related

Paul's earlier recordings ,two of my favorites, You can sing these at your Church ,beautiful world and tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6FE8d05 ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYGk2EsP ... re=related

Sorry my reply yesterday was a little rushed but more people came over to our home. I would like you to read the book " Our father Abraham" This is the history and what happened from the first Church in Jerusalem up to present showing the departure in the 2nd century by the Greeks and Romans,then the Reformers till now. This is an excellent book I have conducted many many groups and used this Book by Marvin Wilson

Forever means Forever. Gen 17 The Land of Israel given to the Jewish people. Many Churches are pushing to divide Jerusalem and give half to the Muslim Arabs. Joel 3:2 is a serious Warning to anyone or Nation .Presbyterian USA is the Ring leader Pres. Obama is another. Many Churches of Christ as well have jumped on the band wagon against Israel. Please read this book it is an eye opener.



I have had several groups as well as my husband has had groups as well ,many members from the C of C have attended as well as many other Churches of different denominations. My husband just told me we are going back to Israel in January. I am so happy what a surprise. have a Happy New year and enjoy the Music from Paul Wilbur the words really touch the heart ! m273p15cafter you read this book and after we return from Israel,Lord willing,lets discuss the word of God further.It is my deepest desire to follow Rabbi Yeshua our Messiah and do His will and the will of the Father. And in the afterawhile live in the New Jerusalem dance on the streets of Gold with Moses and Aaron and meet the Disciples and sing and dance on those streets the Harps playing beautiful and angels bowing and the Lamb ,the Lion of Judah Rabbi Messiah Yeshua on the Throne next to the Father .What a day that will be. Shalom

Baruch Ha ba B'Shem Adoni Baruch Rabbi Yeshua( John 1:49 ) Messiah, King of Israel !

listen to Yeshua radio 24 hrs a day. Jewish believers from Israel (Jewish Christians) Wonderful station !

http://yradio1.radioyeshua.com/YRadio.asp

[m273p15c]

I apologize for the long delay. I greatly appreciate your kind and swift replies to my questions.

We have discussed many points where we share common beliefs and many points where our understandings differ. Originally, I planned to tackle every point of difference; however, I found it overwhelming. So, if you do not mind, I would like to address what I perceive as the most fundamental arguments of your case, and I would like to limit my response to a few central arguments as well. Below the following section, although not exhaustive by any means, I have included responses to several other points you have made. However, I think it could serve as a distraction, so I include them reservedly.

Answering The Fundamental Arguments

First, I would I like to focus on these compiled quotations, which I think articulate the "theory" (emphasis, mine):

We have no need for animal sacrificies yeshua is the last Lamb once and for all. ... What do we do with the first covenant ? I am a Messianic Jew. Even with in our ranks people do different things. Yeshua is the fullfillment of everything and the New Covenant is a continuation of the Old. ... We follow Gods diet but animal sacrifices are no more. ... I wanted you to get acquainted with the 1st lesson of the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith which is found in Jer. 31:31 The 1st Covenant was given to the Jewish People and the 2nd or New Covenant(Testimentum Latin- testament-English) was also given ONLY to the Jews

It seems that your belief that the New Covenant was given exclusively to the Jews AND is a continuation of the Old is the root of our differences. When applied, we run into this practical point of difference:

the first church met on the Sabbath in local Synagogues read all of Acts. I believe as they closed out the Sabbath with the Havdalla service and brought in the 1st of the week(Sunday)at about 7:00 pm Sat evening they layed by in store searched the Scriptures played and sang songs as thy always have.God did not have to retell us to play instruments He told us this in Tehillim we have good memories. ... Remember All Scripture is profitable for correction etc that the man of G-d will be perfect...What All Scripture were they refering to ???? The only Scripture they had the Hebrew Scripture Scrolls of Scripture the 1st Covenant. ... Any way God told us Jews all through the Bible to Worship Him with everything .He did not have to tell us again. ...

Is the New Covenant an extension of the Old? If so, then it would seem reasonable that all things authorized in the Old, including instrumental music, would continue to be authorized in the New unless specifically forbidden. But, can we harmonize this "theory" with all of Scripture? In response, I would like to focus on one Bible verse:

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? (Galatians 5:1-7)

I understand that you and your husband do not seek to be justified by keeping the law, much less perfectly, thereby avoiding its curse (Galatians 3:12-13). That is good. :-) However, in answering the Jews who sought justification by the Old Law, Paul argued that if any man seeks to keep any part of the law (for example, circumcision), then he must keep the whole law (see also, James 2:10; Galatians 3:10)! (He also says that circumcision is nothing and not part of "obeying the truth". Do you believe that Jewish men should obey a command to be circumcised? If so, Paul says that is not "truth".) Other passages teach the same point, which is that nobody can modify a covenant. If one part is changed, then the whole thing is changed (Hebrews 7:12-19)! There is no piece-meal, picking and choosing what to keep and what to discard (Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32). If somebody seeks to obey any part of the covenant, then they are responsible for the whole covenant (Galatians 5:3). Nobody, even God, can change a covenant:

Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. (Galatians 3:15-17)

God's covenants can only be broken or fulfilled. And, the Old Covenant has definitely been fulfilled:

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:4)

But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. (Galatians 3:23-25)

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." (Romans 7:1-7)

The main point of the Old Covenant and its Law was to bring us to Christ. Christ has fulfilled it - both in fulfilling its prophecies and perfectly obeying its commands (Luke 24:25-27; Romans 8:3-4). So, how is anyone justified in including parts of the Old Covenant with the New? The Old Law has been fulfilled. And, the Old Law cannot be augmented or modified. By divine law, no one can extend the Old into the New. Therefore, we cannot use the Old Covenant to justify instrumental music, unless we are willing to grant that Jesus failed, and unless we are willing to authorize incense, temple worship, animal sacrifices, special priests, polygamy, physical violence, and so forth.

Dear friend, I have asked you these questions in a previous correspondence. You need to answer these for anyone to have confidence in your arguments. By now you surely know that I will not be satisfied with mere assertions or an interesting story. You will need clear, unambiguous arguments from Scripture to convince me, and so far I have not seen it, nor have you answered the reasoning that underpins the above arguments. I am not trying to be hurtful. I am just trying to be clear on where I think we are and what we must do to come to unity in God's Word, which is what I believe we both seek. You need to answer the above verses.

Other Replies

The above summary represents my primary concern. By my understanding, those should be answered first. I hesitate to include next the following replies, because I fear they will distract or prove overwhelming. I am including them primarily for both of our benefits as reference, but also for completeness and integrity's sake. You have made several arguments, some referencing Scripture, so I wanted to answer those. Please do not feel like you must answer all of these, as they are answers themselves. I spent several nights over several weeks compiling these, so I would not expect an immediate response. However, I would welcome whatever questions, replies, or comments are generated by studying these as you have time after your first response.

Musical instruments were commanded in the Tanach and the Jews who started the Church continued to play and Sing. ... They were Jews and years later at Acts 10 Goyim were saved Gentiles. They did as they always did they played their Mid-East instruments and sang. ... The First Church of Christ or Synaogoge of Messiah Yeshua (Jesus is an English name)Joshua would be His true English Name Jesus came from the Greek word Iesus Used Musical instruments. ... If you have never been you don't know what you are missing.The Davidic dance is beautiful. No dead Church here. You will truly have an experience of what Church was like 2000 years ago in the first( Assembly)Synagogue (Church)in Jerusalem Israel. ...

By "Tanach", I understand you mean what I would call, the Old Testament or Covenant. But, how do you know that the early Christians sang and played instruments? What verse says this? If left unsubstantiated, the above statement is just an assertion and assumption.

Your verse that all Churches of Christ use is Eph 5:18-20. Remember Ephesiana was written 61 years after the church was started. What did the congregation do for 30 some years ??? ... The verse that Stone and Campbell came up with was written some 60 years after the Church was established Messianic Jews that started the Church were playing and singing and we are doing today as the 1st Church of Christ did which was all Jewish until Acts 10 then Gentiles were able to be saved and be added to the Lords Church .

You are presuming that Ephesians 5:18-20 was the first occurrence of instruction on the matter. Remember, well before the recording of the New Testament, spiritual gifts (tongues and prophesy) served to instruct the saints (I John 2:20-27; I Corinthians 12:1-11, 28; 14:1-40; Acts 8:12-20), not to mention the oral teaching of the apostles and prophets (Acts 2:42; 15:22-32). Their inspired recording only preserved what had been universally, orally proclaimed and miraculously confirmed in the years prior (Colossians 4:16; I Corinthians 4:17; 7:17; 16:1; I Thessalonians 5:27; II Thessalonians 2:15; Hebrews 2:3-4; Mark 16:20). The later date for the writing of Ephesians no more invalidates the instruction on music than it does on baptism, Christ's supremacy, or any other doctrinal matter discussed in Ephesians. Your suggestion that the Ephesian epistle could in any way change the New Covenant as previously delivered is unnecessary, unsupported, and frightening. ... What Bible verse shows that they worshiped with mechanical instruments between Acts 2 and Ephesians 5?

The C of C because of B.Stone and A.Campbell has went the way of Alexander and Allorgorize when it sutes them as in revelation The Picture of the New Jerusalem the new city we will live is an actual place will have Trumpets Harps and the Menorah frut on trees.

I interpret John's Revelation as figurative and symbolic, because that is how John told us to interpret it:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants -- things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. (Revelation 1:1-3)

I interpret John's Revelation as directly applicable to his near time, because that is how John was told to interpret it:

Then he said to me, "These words are faithful and true." And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book." ... And he said to me, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. ... And behold, I am coming quickly ... He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! (Revelation 22:6-21)

More here: http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... revelation

But please consider I am messiah Jewish I do not stop being Jewish because I have accepted my Jewish Messiah Rabbi Yeshua John 1:40

I am not asking you stop being Jewish or to give up your Jewish traditions. Please feel free to continue in them (Romans 14:1-23; Acts 21:17-26; I Corinthians 9:19-23). However, if any of the "commands" under the Tanach, which you keep as traditions, come in conflict with the New Law, then we must realize that the Tanach's traditions are no longer binding and prefer the New over the Old:

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. (I Corinthians 7:19)

The Tanach bound circumcision, but now circumcision is not part of the "commandments of God"; therefore, the Tanach is no longer the "commandments of God", unless we are willing to pick and choose (Deuteronomy 4:2).

now i understand your members of the C of C who most I have talked to believe God is finished with the Jews and This Denomination teaches Replacement Theology which is false read Romans 11:1

I do not use the term "Replacement Theology", and I am not sure what you mean by it. However, I do believe that the Old Law of Moses is no longer authoritative or binding as law.

I do not believe that God has entirely "cast off" the Jews per your reference. In fact, I understand that Jews enjoy this favor:

What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. (Romans 3:1-2)

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen. (Romans 9:1-5)

That is a tremendous heritage that Gentiles can only read about. However, your version of "casting off" may not be the same as Paul's. Was Paul speaking of salvation or covenants? Individuals or nations? I understand that Paul was saying that God has not completely and utterly rejected physical Israel (Romans 10:16-20). They could be saved like everybody else, despite their disobedience (Romans 10:21). In fact, Paul was living proof that God had not forgotten or excluded physical Israelites from salvation, since he was one (Romans 11:1)! God could redeem a remnant of physical Israel according to the gracious terms of the New Covenant without necessarily invoking, requiring, or preserving any remnant of their Old Covenant and Law. I believe you have over-stretched and over-applied the verse by not realizing the full severity of the rejection denied by Paul in the term, "cast off". (Compare to same Greek word, apotheomai, in: Acts 7:27, 39; 13:46; I Timothy 1:19; Jeremiah 2:36-37; 4:30; 6:19; Psalm 93:14; 94:14.)

Also, Zechariah prophesied that the physical, Jewish nation would be destroyed in a way, such that they would lose any special status before the Lord (Zechariah 11:1-17). Although their legacy, witness, and history would be preserved, they would lose their right to the land through their disobedience, culminated in the rejection of Christ and His saints.

C of C s do not have Choirs. But wait a minute some now do have choirs and some are now using the piano and other instruments,,,Yes times seem to be changing even in the C of C.Florida college and Harding college are changing,,the young people are leaving the Church at alarming rate.A C of C preacher told me that. "WE have lost the youth" Many members now are over sixty Hmmmmmmmmmmm ! ... I am aware of the woe full numbers that have dropped from the Churches of Christ as well as many of the Young people have left.The attendance of Florida,Harding as well as other C of C Colleges have dropped way done. I am not surprised. ... If you have never been you don't know what you are missing.The Davidic dance is beautiful. No dead Church here.

This is an emotional and prejudicial argument. I am disappointed to see you stoop to this level. I could just as easily argue, "Our singing is more spiritual, because we are focused on the melody of the soul, not a lifeless machination." Would that prove anything? I could point out the beautiful singing and the swelling attendance, where I worship. In fact, we are discussing plans to increase our auditorium size. Does that make me right? Hopefully, you are not drawn to instrumental music and dance by their beautiful appeal. (Do not forget how Eve was deceived, Genesis 3:6.) Please do not use "human wisdom" in an effort to persuade (I Corinthians 2:1-5).

Most of the Members of the C of C cannot even answer this.I asked one member of the Cof C Do you believe that Yeshua is both King and Priest They answered yes. I posed an answer as would the Hasadim Jews would answer. Yes Yeshua can be a King because He is in the line of David BUT he cannot be a priest because He is from the tribe of Judah. Only a man from the tribe of Lievi can be a priest. I have asked hundreds of members of all faiths and many many members from the C of C. No one has answered me.I am sure you know. The answer is found in the book of Tehellim-Psalms .Rabbi Yeshua the Messiah was made Priest after the order of Melchizedek !

Again, most Christians I know would have no problem with this. This is another prejudicial statement. But, more to the point, if Jesus was ordained according to an order outside the Law of Moses, then why would you try to serve Him according to the Law that He overshadowed, eclipsed, and superseded (Hebrews 7:1-19)? The Old Law was built on top of the priesthood (Hebrews 7:11). If the priesthood changed, then the law came tumbling down (Hebrews 7:12, 18-19).

One C of C told me that there are no more Jews and Gentiles. I had to correct the misuse of Scripture. The verse also says also no longer Men and females !!! Last time I checked WE Are Different ! There are Men and there are females,as well as there are Jews and Gentiles. The meaning of the verse is it does not matter what we are, we come to Messiah Yeshua the same way.I am sure you already know this.

The terms, "Jew" and "Gentile", are no longer valid "in Christ" (Galatians 3:26-28). However, as much as we operate in this world, where there is still male and female, master and slave, Jew and Gentile, I would agree that there are laws concerning some of those distinctions (I Timothy 2:8-15; I Corinthians 14:34-35; Ephesians 5:22-6:9), even though those distinctions are temporal. I understand those distinctions to disappear, once we exist exclusively in Christ (Matthew 22:23-30).

But, how do you explain Romans 10:12 - "no difference between Jew and Greek"? Outside of Jewish traditions, which are optionally observed, what real difference is there?

I do believe that the land contract and covenant by G-d to israel is binding todat and forever do to Scripture Gen 17 Forever means Forever and all those who would divide jerusalem are in trouble Obama as well Joel 3:2.

Are Aaron and his sons supposed to offer sacrifices forever, or does "forever" not always mean "forever"?

"In the tabernacle of meeting, outside the veil which is before the Testimony, Aaron and his sons shall tend it from evening until morning before the LORD. It shall be a statute forever to their generations on behalf of the children of Israel. (Exodus 27:21)

"'For the breast of the wave offering and the thigh of the heave offering I have taken from the children of Israel, from the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and I have given them to Aaron the priest and to his sons from the children of Israel by a statute forever.'" This is the consecrated portion for Aaron and his sons, from the offerings made by fire to the LORD, on the day when Moses presented them to minister to the LORD as priests. The LORD commanded this to be given to them by the children of Israel, on the day that He anointed them, by a statute forever throughout their generations. (Leviticus 7:34-36)

The sons of Amram: Aaron and Moses; and Aaron was set apart, he and his sons forever, that he should sanctify the most holy things, to burn incense before the LORD, to minister to Him, and to give the blessing in His name forever. (I Chronicles 23:13)

I believe most lexicographers agree that "forever" can mean "age lasting", as seen in the above verses (see also, Exodus 21:6).

Keep in mind, God's promises to Abraham were fulfilled (Genesis 12:1-3, 7; 13:15-17; 15:18-21; 23:30-31; Joshua 21:43-45; I Kings 4:20-21; II Chronicles 9:26; Nehemiah 9:7-8), and His promises to Israel were conditional, which they did not keep (Deuteronomy 28:1-68, especially verses, 62-68).

The tanach was given to the jewish people but do you know that the new (Covenant-Testament) is Given to the Jewish people ? the New Covenant is a Covenant between G-d and the Jewish People. Jer. 31:31 because of this verse as well as Isa.53 I becabe a believer.The N.T.is 100% as Ruth the Gentiles can belong and be saved if they accept the Messiah and King of Israel by faith believe and be Immersed . Thus the gentiles are Grafted in with us and we both are One New Man.both Jew and Goyim-Gentile in Yeshua the Messiah. Many many people do not know that the N.T. is a Jewish covenant to the Jewish people.The Gospels are really still the Old testament in Transition Yeshua was teaching a more perfect Torah because the Tanach was a shadow of things to come. ... Gentiles look at this whole thing through Gentile eyes. You should look through Mid eastern eyes as being Grafted in to our Covenant remember the Old and New are both Jewish,covenants by G-d to the Jewish people Gentiles are the wild branch grafted in Thus Gentiles are the Guests.Paul bears this out in Romans 9,10,11,12 Don't get the big head don't boast gentiles ,,but that is exactly what has happened. Acts 15 voted four things Gentiles have to do to belong in the Christian Community with us Jews. ... I am using the term Jewish New testament or Jewish Covenant because it is Jer.31:31 This has not changed just because many jews have not accepted it. No we cannot and must not Judahise the N.T which means try to impose or try and say Gentiles must become Jews.You being a Gentile have been grafted into the Jewish Covenant you are no longer a Gentile meaning of the Pagan Nations you are no longer a Pagan you are a Citizen of Israel and a sead of Abraham with all the blessings of being adopped. So if there are Gentiles in your Church they are not saved if they become saved then they are no longer Gentiles ,in darkness without G-d They are adopped into the Family grafted into the Jewish Covenant given to the Jewish People Remember you are the Guest we are the Natural Branches. Now Please dont think I mean this by you being inferior I do not but this is the layout of G-ds plan. The Church is supposed to be like Ruth,,I mean the gentiles who come to faith. Ruth a Moabite said to Namoi Your people will be my peole Your G-d will be My G-d. Nowadays most gentiles have missed this point. You have joined yourself to a Jewish Covenant. You do not have to become physical Natural Jewish you have become adopped to Israel you are now a Spiritual Jew. ... non Jewish believers are Grafted in . Romans chapters 9,10,11,12 Eph .chapter 2 says that gentiles become part of and citizens of Israel. If the Church could learn the story of Ruth. Your people will be my people your God my God The God of Israel. They would understand how the gentiles were supposed to treat God's people.The Jewish People. ... But many Goyim-Gentiles have no clue of the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith. They only have been taught from those who departed from the Faith such as Augustien,Chrystosom,Irainus, all the Greeks and then Romans and then the Popes ,Constentine and the wholeof Rome. ... Untill later today please read Jer.31:31 I have just studyed two weeks ago with two families who attended the assembly which is called The Church of Christ. The Holy Bible is the only book we will use .These are my only ground rules. I started with this verse Jer. 31:31. I also asked them to close the Birit HaDashah (New Testament) and teach me about Messiah yeshua (Jesus) from the 1st covenant-Testament. They could not ! I reminded them that when Messiah Yeshua appeared on the road to Emaus this is how He taught. ... Law and Music. I understand your members want to distance yourselves from Stone and Campbell but this is impossible .The error of the stance of the Churches of Christ teaching stems from Calvin through them.Although some has been changed and they dropped some but the seed of Replacement Theology started in the 3rd and 4th century. The Greeks came up with the Allegory way of thinking this was not Jewish thought of the Apostles. I wanted you to get acquainted with the 1st lesson of the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith which is found in Jer. 31:31 The 1st Covenant was given to the Jewish People and the 2nd or New Covenant(Testimentum Latin- testament-English) was also given ONLY to the Jews. Now this truth is not taught in most Churches. The Church of Rome has done everything they could to de-Jewish the New testament. So the Gospel ,the New Covenant is Jewish and then the Church was started at the Feast of Shavote-Pentecost All Jews then the Church or Assembly was all Jewish for some years until Acts 10 . A Roman Acts 8 was a Black Jew from Africa reading a Scroll of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Now to your question Law. What you may have missed is that Yeshua commended the Pharisees for trying to keep the Law but Yeshua was condemning the " Oral" Law. The Law in the 1st Covenant exposed what sin is ,remember Yeshua said that All the Law hang on the first two commands .The New Covenant Law is really more difficult. Yeshua expanded the Law higher.For example before an individual could have sex and it would be called Adultery now in this New Covenant one only has to look at a man to lust after him or a man lusting after a girl in their heart and mind. Woh that is very difficult but this is a high standard. We as Jews do not cease being Jews. It was the Gentiles we had to find out what to do with these Pagans .A meeting was called by the Jewish Assembly-Church of Messiah-Christ if you will. After the meeting Jacob stood up ( His Name is Not James (Check your Greek) We cannot bind the Law on these Gentiles but only four things will be required of the Gentiles if they want to be a Part of the Church of Christ ,,,Most gentiles do Not know what these four things are ! ... You see if you look at this whole thing as Gentiles being the guests Romans 9,10,11,12 and that Salvation is of the Jews,,and that the Jewish Root supports you and you do not support the Root then things become much clearer. ... Hebrews was written to the Jews the book of Jacob (James) was written to the 12 tribes of the Jews the entire New testament is Jewish a Covenant to the Jewish people,,Gentiles are now invited to become members of this Jewish covenant and become citizens of Israel Eph.Chapter 2 Please respect our Rabbi Messiah Yeshua and be good guests because in Romans 9,10,11,12 Rabbi Sha'ul (Paulos- Paul) said Hey Gentiles remember you are a wild branch from a tree not supposed to be on the Jewish tree but because of your faith of the Messiah Yeshua King of Israel you are allowed to be grafted in and be saved BUT do not get the big head and try to take over ! OR you will be broken off as the natural Jewish branches were broken off due to unbelief for if God broke off the natural branches which are His chosen people God will surly break off the Gentile wild branches if they try to mistreat Israel or try to take over. Sadly this is what has happened. ... I hope this helps. I only hope you take a long look and examine how this Faith and Covenant came from in the context of Hebrew eyes as it was written and intended to be. ... I would like you to read the book " Our father Abraham" This is the history and what happened from the first Church in Jerusalem up to present showing the departure in the 2nd century by the Greeks and Romans,then the Reformers till now. This is an excellent book I have conducted many many groups and used this Book by Marvin Wilson

Jer.31:31
Matt. 10:5 Yeshua said Do Not take the Gosple to the Gentiles but only go to the Jews !
Matt 15 " My Father has Only sent me to the Jewish people
Acts 10 1st gentile saved
Acts 15 Gentiles Must be Jews,,, this was voted down Jacob(James) stood up,,No they do not ,,But 4 things the Gentiles Must do.

This is a wonderfully elaborate explanation. I realize that you were not trying to defend this entire story, but I believe you have made too much out of the verses that support your story:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying,'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

I will not deny that this covenant was originally made with members of physical Israel and Judah (Acts 1:1-8; 2:1-47). But, does that necessarily mean that the New Covenant contained the baggage of those people? Consider this:

"Now therefore, fear the LORD, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the LORD! And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:14-15)

At one point "Israel" was itself pagan! Did the Law of Moses incorporate and extend their pagan belief system? No! So, why should we assume that the New Covenant incorporated the Old Covenant, just because it involved the same people? Was not the Lord clear through Jeremiah, "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers"? You have assumed too much.

Now, let us look more closely at Romans 11:

For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (Romans 11:13-25)

If the covenant was given to the Jews, then why would any Jew be jealous of a Gentile? How can a Gentile or minister to Gentiles possibly provoke Jews to jealousy, if the New Covenant was given ONLY to the Jews?

You have assumed that the root and stock in Paul's above analogy is the Jewish Old Covenant. However, alternative interpretations exist which satisfy not only this passage but more of Scripture:

1. Abraham - The promise was given to Abraham that he might be the father of the faithful. All those of faith are blessed with believing Abraham (Galatians 3:8-9). Although the Jews descended from Abraham, his physical lineage is not what is important (Matthew 3:9-10).
2. Jesus - Jesus is the only tree I know in Scripture that provides sustenance and life (John 15:1-6). I did not know that the Jewish covenant produced life. I thought it produced death (Romans 7:5-25).

Either of these better fit the context of providing life first to the Jews and later to the Gentiles without extending the authority of the Old Covenant, which violates the other passages we have cited.

Although the New Covenant was first delivered and preached to the Jews (Acts 1:8; Romans 1:16), we should not assume that it was inherently Jewish, preserving all the authority of the first covenant to the Jews.

...

Salvation of any Jew is an occasion of great rejoicing for both Gentile (Romans 11:12) and heaven (Luke 15:1-7). So, they had not been utterly cast off. Yet, even though a remnant would be saved (Romans 11:14), the Jewish nation had been indeed cast away (Romans 11:15; compare with, Acts 27:22). So, in what sense? If not in a national way, then in what way? Not individual, because individual Jews could be saved, like Paul...

most of the old has been fullied by Yeshua. The Law was not nailed to the Cross " Sin " was ! Gods Law stands as it did then however now its tougher we as Jews under the Old Covenant layed with people in the sex act and that was sin now Rabbi Yeshua says if you think it youve sinned.Alerady in your heart.

I confess that the New Law calls us to a higher, spiritual standard than the Old Law (Matthew 5). However, the Old Law was part of the documents that defined sin and demanded a reckoning, and they were therefore included in the documents "nailed to the cross". Look at the context:

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (Colossians 2:13-17)

In what document did Jesus triumph (Romans 8:3-4; 10:4)? What "shadow" regulated food, drink, festival, new moons, and sabbaths? Where else do we read of such laws, except in the law given at Sinai?

You are right that the document against us was not simply the Old Law. It was all systems of law and statements of debt, which pronounced sin, because we cannot be justified by any of them (Galatians 3:21-22), which included the Old Law.

We obey the Sabbath because God instituted this in Genises and carried this through the Ten Commandments.

The Seventh Day Adventists also claim that the Sabbath was instituted at Creation. However, the evidence of Scripture shows that God instituted Sabbath for the Israelites as part of their covenant. Please see this forum post with more detail:

viewtopic.php?p=2260#p2260

We do not eat Filth we eat what G-d said is food the other animals are created a garbage collectors. And yes Peters vision was not about food as the Gentile Church would have you believe ,the vision was about the cleansing of the Pagan Gentiles at that moment a knock at the door ,,,who?? But Gentiles Romans stood at the door of Simon the tanner and kefa -Peter was there on the roof doing his daily Jewish prayer laying Teffila-prayer.

In that vision, the Lord told Peter that the animals were now clean. Even if it was a figure, it was still true. But, regardless, Paul is very clear:

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. (I Timothy 4:1-5)

Again, if you feel uncomfortable or unsafe in disobeying the Jewish dietary laws, please do not disobey them (Romans 14:13-23). However, please do not command others to abstain (Romans 14:1-12), since there is no Bible authority for such condemnation. The authority of the Old Law has been dissolved; otherwise, Paul would clearly be violating the dietary laws and absolving men of their guilt accordingly, which would make him a false teacher and false prophet according to the Old Law. Would it not?

I believe the verse is in Zach. or Zeph. that says when Messiah Yeshua returns and is King and resides in Jerusalem everyone must come to Jerusalem during the Feast of Tabernacles if they do not no rain will fall thus they will go hungry. This is yet to come.Also when He comes back Sacrifices will begin again.This cannot mean Animal Sacrifices cause Yeshua is the final Lamb,,so it may mean a sacrifice of praise and worship.I have a harp made for me in Jerusalem.

Just as you have interpreted the sacrifices of Zechariah's vision (Zechariah 14:16-19) as figurative (not animal, but Jesus), I have interpreted the entire vision as figurative (not physical Jerusalem, but spiritual Jerusalem, etc.), and so I understand it fulfilled from Pentecost onward (Isaiah 2:1-3; Micah 4:1-2; Acts 1:1-8, 2:1-11, 38-47).

I would like you to read the book " Our father Abraham" This is the history and what happened from the first Church in Jerusalem up to present showing the departure in the 2nd century by the Greeks and Romans,then the Reformers till now. This is an excellent book I have conducted many many groups and used this Book by Marvin Wilson ... please read this book it is an eye opener. I have had several groups as well as my husband has had groups as well ,many members from the C of C have attended as well as many other Churches of different denominations. My husband just told me we are going back to Israel in January. I am so happy what a surprise. have a Happy New year and enjoy the Music from Paul Wilbur the words really touch the heart ! m273p15cafter you read this book and after we return from Israel,Lord willing,lets discuss the word of God further.

Dear friend, I appreciate the book recommendation. I have saved the reference, but over the years of operating the ISOT site, I have been "recommended" several books - more than I can ever read. Since you have read it and are persuaded by it, I will trust you to champion its strongest arguments.

Several statements were addressed to the precise chronology of Christ's last week and to "last events" (Christ's return to Mt. Zion, rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem, etc.). I am postponing comment on these, because I believe our other discussion is more fundamental, and any attention spent on these topics - at this point would be distracting. Hopefully, we can discuss these, once we conclude our discussion on the nature of the covenants.

Additional Verses

Several verses have already been provided, and I do not want to "pile it on"; however, I am including these just for reference, not to ask your immediate answer:

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband." Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free. (Galatians 4:21-31)

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:7-13)

Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. (Matthew 17:1-6)

...

I realize that I have provided an enormous amount of material. Please do not feel like you must study and answer it all, although I would not clear your conscience from any of it. However, for the sake of this discussion, I would request that you focus on the first part, because I believe it addresses the fundamental points of difference.

I look forward to your response.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12; Isaiah 66:4),

m273p15c

[email]

Shalom, I also am very busy,as a result ofpeople in different countries discussing issues with me as you, and I, are sharing views. I do not argue Religion I share the good news with love. A Baptist preacher once said to me when we were studying ,that he does not add to nor take from.I replied ,Really ! Acts 2:38 states otherwise among other passages. Also The New Testament Book of Jacob ! The Baptist preacher said their is no book of Jacob in the N.T. I then opened the Greek -English Interlinear N.T and showed him that the book of James is Not James ! Our Lord is a Hebrew and His half brothers are all Hebrews one of which is Ya'acob Jacob in the Greek it is written Jacob . Now you violate Gal.1:8 James is the wrong word.Jacob 2:2 they use the word meeting the N.T. Biblical word in the Greek is Synagogue .Another change Luke 24:1 KJV ,as well as others say on the 1st day of the week. The Biblical words in the Greek are On the one of Sabbaths Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Interesting ! People should learn their Jewish Roots .Yeshua the Messiah is Jewish ,lived in Israel all His life. The Father sent Him Only to the Jewish people .Matt chapter 15. Sad most Jews rejected Him. But Thousands accepted Him as Israels Messiah and the Jews started the Eka.,the called out,the Assembly. The word Church is wrongly used. (The world Kirkel or circle org. from Pagan witchcraft who make human circles in their covens.)Church is a Building ,Our Lord died for people not a building. Romans 16:16 really reads The Assemblies of Messiah (or Christ) salute you. Anyway.Back to the book of Jacob ,which the Gentile publishers and King James wrongly changed to James.Did you ever wonder why the Tyndale Bible does NOT use the word "church" Later the Geneva added the word church.and so on KJV etc.Is this a violation of Gal.1:8 ? James is the wrong word !!!! Hisname is Jacob !Ha ha this would be interesting to bring up in a group Bible study .m273p15cI am sure you have a copy but if you don't please get a Greek -English interlinear. As I said before I really am very busy answer ,not just you but others around the world .People who we have met on our travels.I will attempt to share with you our topics in light of Scripture.Many times I feel you do not understand me as a Jewish lady who is also a Yehudim Meshikim a Jewish Believer in Messiah Yeshua. We are no under the Law of Moses. We are under the 2nd Covenant or New Covenant given to The Jewish people. And By saying this please don't get the Idea that I think we are better.No we are not.We are the chosen people of God.But remember God said I choose you Not because we deserved it. We were chosen to bring forth the Messiah to the world and we were suppose to be a light to the Gentiles. I am trying to fulfill my intended role. The Gentiles have through the years changed the message,the Name of our Lord to Iesus-Isa-Yaso-Isu-Jesu-Jesus,,, The Father Named His Son From Heaven " Yeshua" which in Hebrew means Salvation.
Many gentiles have changed the Mode of Purification Mikva which the Greeks called Baptismos or Baptism.Most churches sprinkle but the Hebrew way was and is Total Immersion. Most churches, or let me use the Biblical word, Assemblies cannot even tell me how a sinner is saved. Yeshua plus nothing is taught. I asked do I have to believe ?? The Baptist,Presbyterian etc said yes .Well the door is opened .This is not a work but a condition.Let's see if their are any other conditions,Repent ??? They answered yes one must Repent .I said Wow !!!! Yeshua Plus nothing ???? We have just found two .Let's proceed Confession ?? How about Immersion-Baptism ?? Go to Acts 2:38 and tell me which side of the water sins are forgiven? Conditions are not works. WE are under Grace yes but do people understand this .? We as well are under Law and Commands of Yeshua the Messiah and now His Law and Command is far tougher.Before a man could lay with a woman and this would be considered Adultery but now it only takes a look and lust. So you see all this is the Big Picture that the Gentile Church has hidden for years.The Picture of the Assembly is found in the Book of Ruth. The gentile saying where you go I will go your people will be my people Your God my God. You see the Gentile Assembly was warned by Paul Not to try and Take Over,Don't get the big head because You Gentiles do not support the Jewish Root,,The Jewish Root supports you.But the Gentile Assembly did not listen to Paul.Now we have a thousand different denominations. The Gentiles came into the Assembly years after Acts 2 Acts 10 was when God opened the door to the Pagans. grafted the once Pagans now believers in the Messiah of Israel. Read Romans chapters 9,10,11,12 study these word for word very careful. It will teach you the Olive Tree Theology meaning how a gentile is Grafted in the true tree of the Jews. Remember God always loved the whole world even before the first Hebrew Abraham. God told Abraham all the Gentile Nations will be blessed IF ! they bless Israel then I will bless them But if the Gentiles do not bless Israel then I will curse them. Gen.12:3 We as Jews started the Assembly our people the Jews were the 1st Assembly of Messiah or ,if you will, The 1st Church of Christ for years all Jewish. Years later it was Kefa Simon Peter who went to Cesseria with some Jewish buddies.He was asked to preach to the Pagans but this Roman at some point in his life believed in Judaism,and now wanted to learn of the Messiah of Israel and King of The Jews ( John 1:49) 1st Gentile saved.
Anyway, many changes down through the years in the Gentile Assembly starting with the 2nd century people like Augustine who changed the literal view that was taught by the first church and changed to Greek thought and the Allegorical view.
Barton W. Stone was a Presbyterian minister. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barton_W._Stone Alexander Campbell came from Ireland to the United States and also became a Presbyterian minister,,,, Presbyterians are Calvinists which believe that we have No Free Will and we are predetermined to go to heaven or Hell before we are born .Note Both used Musical Instruments in the Churches they attended and where they preached. Then some years later they settled in KY. and somehow came up with the idea we cannot use musical instruments now but the Church did for 1700 years until these Kentucky transplants tried to again change their theology. m273p15cyou may believe in there teaching but I most assuredly do not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_ ... (clergyman) I respect your views but as well respect mine. WE are leaving for Israel in a few days so I do not have the time to share our topics now .Maybe I will be able to spare some time upon our return.My husband would share with you but his English is not so good he is Hebrew. Gentile Father Hebrew Mother.
Please read "Our father Abraham" by Marvin Wilson after you read this short book then we will pick up where we left off. Answering The Fundamental Arguments

First, I would I like to focus on these compiled quotations, which I think articulate the "theory" (emphasis, mine):

We have no need for animal sacrifices yeshua is the last Lamb once and for all. ... What do we do with the first covenant ? I am a Messianic Jew. Even with in our ranks people do different things. Yeshua is the fulfillment of everything and the New Covenant is a continuation of the Old. ... We follow Gods diet but animal sacrifices are no more. ... I wanted you to get acquainted with the 1st lesson of the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith which is found in Jer. 31:31 The 1st Covenant was given to the Jewish People and the 2nd or New Covenant(Testimentum Latin- testament-English) was also given ONLY to the Jews. see again Acts 15 the counsel of Jerusalem. The All Jewish (Church) were deciding what to do with these new Gentile believers. I believe the Jew's continued with their customs and diet,,but they did not impose the diet on the Gentiles nor any of the old law.But four things were imposed on the Gentiles that they had to do if they wanted to be a part of God's Assembly. The four things are listed in Acts chapter 15,, Most Gentiles I ask cannot even tell me what they are.

Today there are both Jews and also Gentiles also Men and Women,but it does not matter what we are or if we want to flaunt a pedigree being Jewish it does not matter.The only thing that does matter is that we all come to the Rabbi ,Messiah of Israel Son of God and King of Israel ( John 1:49 ) by Hearing Repenting Confessing and being Immersed.

My ancestors played and sang and danced for the lord I play the Harp and I sing the Psalms and praise the Lord and when I get to the New Jewish City with Jewish names greeting us on the Gates and Jewish names on each of the foundations and the Jewish name on the Jewish City 'The New Jerusalem " and we will all were a Jewish name forever New Jerusalem.

American Standard Version

He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

We will be given Harps I already know how to play mine but just think of the Heavenly throng of music .What a wonder it will be.The churches who teach God is done with the Jews are very mistaken .In the last day 12,000 Jewish young men from each tribe or Gods service.Rom. 11 Paul answered very plainly God is not done with the Jewish people. And with all this Jewish stuff in the Jewish city the New Jerusalem I hope some people who do not like Jewish things will not be to shocked because they will see hear and were a Jewish name forever.

Have a great day we will be in Jerusalem for about two months .Please read Our Father Abraham,and Lord willing we will once again talk later.

Bruch HaShem Baruch Rabbi Messiah Yeshua

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[m273p15c]

I understand that you do not have time to answer my questions. I have appreciated your time, but before I go, I want to respond to a few items you raised in your closing letter.

You claim that we are to interpret Ruth allegorically, as applying to the church of the New Covenant and the relationship between Jews and Gentiles. Why? The book is about literal people, who even appear in the genealogy of Jesus (Matthew 1:5). Therefore, what basis do you have for assuming an allegorical interpretation of Ruth? Now, contrast that with your interpretation of Revelation. It is a fantastical book that we are told is symbolic and applicable to then near-term events (Revelation 1:1-3; 22:10-12, 20), and yet you deride those who interpret the book of Revelation as figurative, even though they are following the very instructions given by the Lord. Why? Where is the consistency?

Now, about the proper words for things. I agree that it is important to use Bible words in Bible ways for clarity's sake. However, you are not quite right about James and Jacob. Here's the NKJV English and original Greek:

"Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? (Matthew 13:55)

οὐχ οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τοῦ τέκτονος υἱός; οὐχ ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ λέγεται Μαριὰμ καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτοῦ Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωσὴφ καὶ Σίμων καὶ Ἰούδας; (Matthew 13:55)

If you look closely, you'll see that "James" is a translation - not of Jacob - but of Jakobos! And, look, "Joses" is not a translation of Joseph - but of Joses! Actually, more accurately, I see neither Jakobos or Joeses, we see Ἰάκωβος and Ἰωσὴφ! Admittedly, those 2 men most likely were given Hebrew names, Jacob and Joseph. Although I do know for certain, I would agree with you that is most likely the case. However, if under inspiration God permitted Jesus' apostles and prophets to use Hellenized forms of their Hebrew names, names translated from Hebrew to Greek, then who are you to say that we must go back to the Hebrew form, when God was happy with the Greek form? Was Matthew, Mark, and Luke sinning by using the Greek form? Were they adding to God's Word? The same goes for Jesus' name. How did God inspire it? The recorded NT form was Ἰησοῦς, transliterated "Jesous", or Jesus (Matthew 1:21). If God was content to use Jesous, then by what authority do you demand we use Joshua or Yeshua instead?

Not only are you not using the inspired forms, you are arguing about things that God said not to argue about:

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. (II Timothy 2:14-16)

If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. (I Timothy 6:3-5)

But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, (Titus 3:9-10)

We are told to "contend earnestly for the faith" (Jude 3); however, we are commanded not to argue about some things, because they have nothing to do with the faith. Now, there are "wholesome words of Jesus", which we are to follow, and we are to reject men who do "not consent to wholesome words". However, words themselves should not become the subject of argumentation. I have generally ignored your Hebrew usage, because I will not argue about such things; however, your adding to the requirements of God's Word and drawing lines of fellowship over it (you referenced Galatians 1:8) cannot be permitted to stand.

If the Lord saw fit to permit the translation of Hebrew names into Greek, who are we demand others return to the Hebrew form? If Jesus' exact name was essential, why did they not name Him Immanuel (Matthew 1:23)? Remember, Christians' true names are not yet even known (Revelation 2:17), so why are we quibbling - even condemning others - about names assigned by men and trivialized by God Himself? Such demands are divisive, producing needless strife and envy, and people who are divisive about such things are ultimately to be withdrawn from. I pray you will not insist on following that road.

Again, thank you for the book recommendation; however, as I said last time, I rely upon you to champion its teaching, since you have already read it and believe it. Plus, throwing a book at somebody and walking away is like throwing the Bible at an atheist and walking away. Yes, they could and should read it and understand it on their own, but then why did God send teachers, elders, and evangelists (Ephesians 4:11-16; Acts 8:27-35)?

About "blessing Israel", did God bless Israel, when he sent Nebuchadnezzar or the Romans to annihilate Jerusalem? Why did Jesus tell the Christians to flee Jerusalem in 70 AD, if that was their promised land and they should have stayed and fought (Matthew 24:14-28)? I believe you already know this: Bible references to Israel do not always mean physical Israel. Some times, many times, they refer to the greater spiritual Israel, which descends from Abraham by faith, not by flesh (Galatians 3:8-9):

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." (Romans 9:6-7)

Maybe the blessing you require is misdirected? How do you know that spiritual Israel was not God's true "apple of His eye"?

I understand that you do not have as much time to study in as much depth or with as many people as you like. From your responses, I can see that you have not fully read or generally understood what I have said. (For example, I have already responded to Romans 11 and the olive tree, but you did not acknowledge it.) I also have to limited resources and must pursue the most favorable and profitable prospects.

I pray you will have a safe trip, that you may have time to give these further thought, and that we may at a future date resume a profitable exchange based on Scripture. If you are more comfortable with your husband speaking to me, feel free to dictate or translate for him. I will be glad to speak with him, if it will be more appropriate. My door is always open. :)

A true friend who truly loves is manifested not by his smile but by his rebuke (Proverbs 27:6, 17). Although I have disagreed with you, please do not believe that I have not loved you or am not sharing the truth in love, for love compels me to speak.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth and each other (II Thessalonians 2:9-12; Isaiah 66:4; John 13:35; I John 3:14),

m273p15c

[email]

http://www.kkcj.org/ King of Kings congregation Jerusalem Israel

http://www.mjaa.org/site/PageServer MJAA Messianic Organization we belong to .Not connected to any local Assembly. Messianic Congregations are Autonomous .Yeshua the Messiah is the Head of every local Messianic Synagogue ( Assembly-congregation-(Church) )

We will be attending K of K Assembly while in Jerusalem. This is the link thought you might like to view this site where we will be.

We had a study group yesterday in home about 60 people in our home. many of these people come from all denominations.I and my Husband share the Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith and some of the Jewish background of Yeshua.We try and explain things such as the woman that touched the hem of his garment. What she touched was the fringe on His Jewish Prayer Shaw or the Tallit . We share how to teach the Gospel from the O.T. Last night I shared to three Baptist families that baptism was always Immersion in the O.T. Mikvah. Or Baptism for purification. Thus Immersion not only is the mode but the Greek word Baptismos means Immersion. We also are meeting many people who believe in CCalvinism , T-U-L-I-P ,,once saved always saved .I do not believe the Bible teaches this .From what I know about the C of C I don't think you believe in this teaching either. Blessings, and looking forward to sharing with you the Gospelupon our return.
Baruch Ha Shem Baruch Yeshua

[m273p15c]

I pray you have a safe trip. I look forward to your responses to my questions, when you have time.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12; Isaiah 66:4),

m273p15c

[email]

Shalom,

We had a wonderful Sabbath yesterday and met with a group of about 70 and shared the Good News of Messiah.The reason I am writing ,our computer crashed and we lost all data that was saved. If you would be so kind as to re-send your questions .please number them so I can answer them in the light of Gods word one by one.
Remember, we, as Messianic Jews , started at the Jewish Festival Shavout (Pentecost) Acts 2 Your strain of teaching started with two Presbyterian preachers in a tent in Kentucky Stone and Campbell. This teaching of Musical instruments started there in the 18th century. Before the Kentucky tent meeting,even Stone and Campbell were worshiping with instrumental music. Some Catholic monks walked the halls chanting songs.Both of these men were ordained teaching falce doctrine and swore by the Westminster Confession as PresbyteriansSo if we want to look at the Assembly of Messiah modern (Church of Christ modern) then the Kentucky tent is where it started.
The Jewish people at Shavout (Penticost) Started the Assembly(Church) playing instruments ,singing,dancing in the Assembly(Church). Anyway please list your questions and send them to me .Maybe now with this new computer it will be faster and last us for a few years.I must say to you as I say to the Mormon boys who come to my door and I always invite them in. I only study using God's word ,Not the book of Mormon nor the teaching or views or doctrine of Stone and Campbell. Everyone ,every group we talk to says they have the truth.I have herd this many times and many timeswe have studied with members of the (Church of Christ) Many have visited the Messianic worship we attend with beautiful music ,song and Davidic worship dance and messages from the word of God.We started at Acts 2 as Messianic Jews, your form started at the following.Please sen your questions in numbered form and as time allows I will answer them with the Scriptures. Much of my time now is with a group of Calvinests from the Presbyterian Church. Shalom

In Kentucky, in 1804, Barton Stone,a Presbyterian Minister,launched a similar movement among the Presbyterians,,,The Campbells left the Presbyterians and for a while worked among the Baptists. Barton W. Stone an ordained Presbyterian Preacher in kentucky,, IV. Arrival in Kentucky.

Stone's travel west took him through Tennessee into Kentucky. Once in Kentucky, he preached temporarily at Cane Ridge and nearby Concord in Bourbon County. He efforts were successful and 50 joined the Concord church and another 30 joined at Cane Ridge.

In the fall of 1797, Stone returned briefly to Georgia but hurried back to Kentucky when Concord and Cane Ridge offered him a full-time position in 1797. His return to Kentucky required ordination by the Transylvania Presbytery in Lexington, Kentucky. Stone knew that before this presbytery would ordain him, he'd have to state his adherence to the Westminster Confession of Faith. He did and was ordained a Presbyterian Preacher.

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http://aent.org/

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[m273p15c]

I am including my last email, which contains all my questions. You'll notice that I only quote Scripture - not Barton or Stone. I look forward to your responses from Scripture.

May God help us to have a sincere love of truth (II Thessalonians 2:9-12; Isaiah 66:4),

m273p15c