Instrumental Music in Worship?

[email]

Ever contemplated the fact that sound systems might be a sin to use in the church since instrumental music is viewed as such? After all it gives off a pitch sound that isn't authorized by Scripture. Right? Don't get me wrong I believe in the Church of Christ and I'm a fellow Christian. If instrumental music is a sin to use in the assembly of the church then it should be a sin to use for private use as well, even in the home. After all we don't cease being a part of the church when we leave the church building right? And yet there are many church of Christ members who use instruments of music at home. One final note I would like to add is that in Acts chapter 3:1 we find Peter and John going to the Temple at the time of prayer. If instrumental music isn't authorized in the New Testament then why do we find Peter and John going there for worship when the Temple incorporated instrumental music? I rest my case.

(oh by the way I belong to the Christian church in case you are curious).

[larry]

Thanks for visiting insearchoftruth.org and for your comments regarding instrumental music in worship. I will make some brief remarks in response to your email.

I realize that opposing the use of instruments in worship is not popular today since most churches use them. The question as far as we are concerned is whether the Bible authorizes their use, or does the authority originate with men.

Actually, I have never contemplated that the use of a sound system might be sin. I always thought that all a sound system did was to make it easier for the preaching, public prayers, comments at the Lord’s Supper, and singing to be heard by the audience. If they are working properly, all I hear is the one speaking.

Now I have heard people discuss singing religious songs with instruments in the privacy of their homes. I personally choose not to do that, but there are some members of churches of Christ who do so. When the members of a church come together, it is the church (I Cor. 11:18; 14:23). However, we are not the church when we separate and go to our homes or other places. I Tim. 5:16 makes that perfectly clear, “If any believing man or woman has widows, let them relieve them, and do not let the church be burdened, that it may relieve those who are really widows.” As a Christian functions in society, what he does is not the church doing it. He may vote, play golf, etc., but that is not the church voting and playing golf, etc. In fact, a member may choose to rob a bank, but the authorities would never charge the church where that person was a member with robbing the bank.

Therefore, even though members of a church may choose to use instruments with their singing in private, it is not the church doing so. The question is where is the Bible authority for the church to use instruments when it comes together to worship God?

Regarding Peter and John going to the temple, it was the practice of the apostles in the New Testament to go to the temple and into the synagogues to teach. There is no mention of the church meeting with the Jews in the temple or synagogues. We both know the Jews would have never allowed such. Peter and John were apostles and Christians, they were not the church when they functioned individually.

If you really have an interest in trying to better understand why we teach that the use of instruments in worship is not authorized, please go to our website and read the articles regarding Bible Authority under the section entitled “Studying the Bible and Determining Right from Wrong.” I would be pleased to address your questions or comments after you make that study.

Larry

[email]

Greetings my friend,

I realize we both have differences of opinion in this matter, and I'm in hopes you will eventually see my point. However, i don't want to embellish you with the notion that I think the Church collectively as an assembly has to use mechanical instruments in worship. It should be a matter freedom rather than a test of fellowship. Although if King David arose from the dead and wanted to play his harp in the Church of Christ would you deny him that opportunity? This could get interesting if you did. What would you tell him? ....."I'm sorry Dave you no longer have the authorization in Scripture to play your instrument......" Would that be your instruction to him? God no doubt gave him a talent to use and yet on your baseless argument are you willing to deny him the privilege of praising God?

On the issue of authorization I think we have some trouble here. You guys can't even agree on alot of things when it comes to "authorization." What is your argument to those who think the church should only use one cup for the communion service? What is your argument for those who think there is no authorization in scripture for having a fellowship hall? Better yet what about those who think it's wrong to use Christian literature or have Sunday School class? These are all chruches of Christ here. I kid you not. They all base their arguments on authorization and yet are divided. Who is right? who is wrong? Or are they all right? Or are they all wrong? You guys cannot even agree on what the scriptures have or haven't authorized. If you are honest with your yourself, I think you would have to agree all of this is trivial if not ridiculous. That is my argument with instrumental music. You haven't sinned if you use them or vice versa. The same issue in regard to marriage. If you remain unmarried that's better, but if you do married you haven't sinned either (1Cor. 7:36-38).

I do have to disagree with you about the "church" concept. The Scriptures teach, "so whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God" (1 Cor. 10:31). Does this only apply to the church when it comes together? I'm sure it applies to home life as well. According to Acts 2:47 we read....."and the Lord added to the church daily those who are being saved." From this Scripture we can deduce that the saved are the church. According to your argument the church is only the church when it assembles together, am i right? If that be case then that must mean I'm only saved when I'm at church fellowship and not at home. If I'm not "in the church" 24/7 365 days a year then I'm not saved my friend based on your argument and neither are you. You are either in the church or not in the church. It's as simple as that.

Also, Peter, Paul, and the other Apostles wrote to churches in what we call Epistles right? Based on your argument they bear weight only if we meet together collectively for worship and therefore would have no bearing on our personal or home life, since they wrote to churches and that their instructions would only matter insomuch that we were at church for worship. Funny how the Apostles wrote so much about what we should and shouldn't be doing in our day to day walk with the Lord even when we arn't at the church building and yet they wrote to churches.

Luckily for me you can't go to the Scriptures and say mechanical instruments are a sin to use in worship. So you want to make it a matter of authorization? Well it was authorized in the Old Testament and don't you dare say that it wasn't? :) So, we come to the New Testament and you say there is no authorization for it right? How can you legitimately say it isn't authorized in the New Testament? We are talking about worship my friend, not laws here. Worship directed towards God. In the Book of Revelation we find a myriad of Scriptures where mechanical instruments were used in worship to God. I know you are thinking well that's only a vision that John saw. Vision or not, it was mechanical instruments used to worship God and yes they were doing it collectively as would a church assembly would. Would it be wrong to suppose the authorization carried over into the New covenant as well since it was already authorized in the Old Testament?

I can go on and on but doubt you would be interested. It's my hope and prayer you will meditate on some of this. I'm not advocating that the church of christ should use instrumental music. Just dont make it a test a fellowship. Don't be like the hypocritical Scribes and Pharisees for shutting the people out of God's kingdom(Matt. 23:13) just because you think something isn't authorized. God in his greatness encompasses the past, present, and the future. You think he would leave us guessing as to whether or not we can use instrumental music in worship or not? No doubt God would know that in the future we would be wrestling with this important aspect. With that in mind maybe the Lord never intended for it to be an issue to begin with?

[larry]

Thanks for your email regarding our discussion. As you say, we do have differences of opinion about this matter. I would prefer not to agree with your opinion and I dont ask you to agree with my opinion. I am only interested in what the Bible teaches. One of the deficiencies in your email is the lack of scripture dealing with the subject. You do quote some unrelated scriptures, but do not provide scriptures to support your opinion on the subject matter. Of course, Christians are Christians whether they are assembled together or functioning individually. You failed to address the scriptures I provided showing the difference between the church and the individual. You just talked about unrelated issues.

You talked about what Churches of Christ teach and how they differ. You well know that most churches have differences in what they teach and practice. The Christian churches of which you are member certainly do, the Baptists do, etc. That is not the point. I am a member of a local church that follows the New Testament. The purpose of our website is not to defend what Churches of Christ practice, but to teach what the Bible teaches about the church that Jesus built (Mt. 16:18).

I dont mean to be unkind, but when you talk about David and his harp and the fact that the Old Testament authorizes mechanical instrumental music, it does indicate a lack of basic knowledge of how the Bible teaches. Do you not understand that we are no longer under the Law of Moses? The Law of Moses commands we remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy (Ex. 20:8). Have you ever worked on Saturdays? It is forbidden by the Old Testament Law of Moses (Ex. 31:12-18). Do you offer animal sacrifices? It is commanded by the Law of Moses”read the book of Leviticus. Or, do you just like to lift the instrument of music from the Old Testament?

You need to read Hebrews chapters seven through ten which makes it very clear we are now under the new covenant, the Law of Christ, not the Law of Moses. Jesus said we will be judged by His word, Jn. 12:48. We are no longer under the Law of Moses and it is not the authority for what we do today.

You make one interesting statement that puzzles me. You say, We are talking about worship my friend, not laws here. How do we know what worship we are to engage in if there is no law? What was Jesus talking about when He said in John 16:13 to his apostles that He would send the Holy Spirit who would guide them into all truth? What truth? What did Paul mean when he wrote to Timothy in II Tim. 3:16-17, All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work? Not laws here?

I will deal with one more item in your email. You say you are lucky that I cant go to scripture and show where the use of mechanical instruments of music is sin. That is a true statement. Neither can I go to scripture and show where the following are condemned: Hard rock bands in worship, infant baptism, baptism by sprinkling and pouring in addition to immersion, praying through at the altar for salvation, Lords supper once a month, year, etc., creed book, church membership in a conference, priests to which confession of sin can be made, cardinals, a pope, saying the rosary, transubstantiation, praying people from purgatory, and on and on and on.

Do you not see how your approach of saying that unless it is condemned it is ok to do would lead to doing just about anything that man could conceive? No, we need authority for what we do. Paul made that clear in I Cor. 4:6, Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, Peter said in II Pet. 1:3, as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, If you are truly interested in what the Bible teaches, I appeal to you again to go to our website and read the articles on authority. Pay attention to the scriptures that are listed. There are many more there teaching the same thing I have mentioned in this paragraph.

My authority for singing is Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16. Where is your authority in the New Testament for using mechanical instruments of music in the worship of the church?

Larry

[email]

Greetings my friend,

If you don't want to recognize or understand anything I'm saying, and you don't ask that I see your point of view as well, then why are we even having this discussion?

I'm well aware we are not bound by the Old Covenant. Are you suggesting that instrumental music is just an old covenant issue? Indeed I'm talking about worship, not Old Testament laws here.

Are there any suggestions in Scripture to suggest that people who become Christians in other parts of the world have to conform to how the Churches of Christ worship in America?

Some people who become Christians in other countries are a little bit more charismatic ( not referring to Pentecostals) in how they worship. I think we both can agree that instrumental music was authorized in the Old Covenant.

In comes the New Covenant which you and I live under, and yet we find where the Lord never stopped the authorization of the use of mechanical instruments in worship.

I could quote Scriptures to prove my point but according to you it's unrelated and has no bearing on the issue. You are aware there are Churches of Christ who have instruments used in their worship services right?

I'm not a lone ranger on this issue, in case you didn't know.

If you want to make instrumental music just an Old covenant issue, I can show you where we are not bound by the sacrificial system of the Old Covenant in the New Covenant, as well as keeping the Sabbath day ( the Sabbath day was just for the Jews and the aliens who lived in the land, proselytes to Judaism), and the law of circumcision. etc...but where do we find in the New Covenant that instrumental music has ceased?

Actually there are alot of Scriptures that show that baptism is to be by immersion and by immersion only. Also, there are alot of Scriptures to show that the early Christians communion ( the Lord's Supper) was at the first day of the week.

We know that the Sinner's prayer is not scriptural cause we know according to John 9:31 "now we know God hears not sinners , but if any man be a worshiper of God, and does his will, him he hears." How can they call it a sinners prayer when according to Scripture God doesn't hear sinners? Glad me and you can agree on that one. Also, the salvation pattern in the Book of Acts and elsewhere in Scripture doesn't line up with that teaching. I have to run to work my friend, God bless.

[larry]

Thanks for your response. I appreciate you taking the time to write. You are a busy man I am sure. I will answer your comments as best I can. See my comments in red below.

Greetings my friend,

If you don't want to recognize or understand anything I'm saying, and you don't ask that I see your point of view as well, then why are we even having this discussion?

The point I was trying to make is that while we may state our opinions, ultimately what matters is what the Bible teaches. Thus, emphasis should be on the Scriptures.

I'm well aware we are not bound by the Old Covenant. Are you suggesting that instrumental music is just an old covenant issue? Indeed I'm talking about worship, not Old Testament laws here.

What I am saying is that we cant go to the Old Testament for our authority today. The Hebrew writer made it very clear in Heb. 8:6-13 that we are under a new covenant, the law of Christ. We need to examine the law of Christ and do what He has authorized.

Are there any suggestions in Scripture to suggest that people who become Christians in other parts of the world have to conform to how the Churches of Christ worship in America?

No. As I have tried to say, our website, nor me personally, have any intention of defending Churches of Christ. I dont know of a single passage in the NT that ever mentions a church named a Church of Christ. In fact, there is no official name ever given to the church in the NT. It merely mentions churches in certain locations, (I Cor. 1:2; 16:19; Rev. chapters 2 and 3.) My interest is in doing things those churches did which were approved. Having the name, Church of Christ, on the sign in front of a building means nothing to me. What is taught and practiced is what matters.

Some people who become Christians in other countries are a little bit more charismatic ( not referring to Pentecostals) in how they worship. I think we both can agree that instrumental music was authorized in the Old Covenant.

Yes, we agree.

In comes the New Covenant which you and I live under, and yet we find where the Lord never stopped the authorization of the use of mechanical instruments in worship.

When you say the Lord never stopped the use of instruments, if you mean by that He never specifically said those words, you are correct. But, He also never specifically said to stop observing the Sabbath, the offering of animal sacrifices, etc. What He did say was that the old law was removed (Col. 2:14) and nailed to the cross. He took it all away. Then He has told us what we are to do. Some of the things He said they were to do under the Law of Moses He has repeated in the NT for us. Nine of the ten commandments are repeated in the NT in one form or another. But, He never repeats the observance of the Sabbath. We are told to worship on the Lords day, the first day of the week. He has told us to do certain things, i.e., teach, pray, take the Lords Supper, contribute of our means and to sing. But, where did He ever say play on an instrument of music? Where is the authority in the NT for such? As you correctly say, we live under the New Covenant. That covenant never mentions the instrument of music.

I could quote Scriptures to prove my point but according to you it's unrelated and has no bearing on the issue. You are aware there are Churches of Christ who have instruments used in their worship services right?

Yes, I am. But, that does not prove anything? They dont have authority for doing such other than they like it I guess. Truthfully, I like it myself. I have heard some pretty awful singing in my day. The question is, does the Lord like it? And if He liked it and wanted us to use instruments, why didnt He tell us? He told us other things He wanted us to do. And why dont we find a single example of a New Testament church using them? And why was it almost a 1,000 years after the New Testament was written before we find a church using them?

I'm not a lone ranger on this issue, in case you didn't know.

I am well aware that most churches use the instrument of music in their worship. A majority does not always mean that a position is correct. There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, but that does not mean God approves of Islam.

If you want to make instrumental music just an Old covenant issue, I can show you where we are not bound by the sacrificial system of the Old Covenant in the New Covenant, as well as keeping the Sabbath day ( the Sabbath day was just for the Jews and the aliens who lived in the land, proselytes to Judaism), and the law of circumcision. etc...but where do we find in the New Covenant that instrumental music has ceased?

I believe I have already addressed this above.

Actually there are alot of Scriptures that show that baptism is to be by immersion and by immersion only. Also, there are alot of Scriptures to show that the early Christians communion ( the Lord's Supper) was at the first day of the week.

Yes, there are a lot of scriptures that teach baptism is immersion. But, there is no scripture that says sprinkling and pouring for baptism is wrong. So, since there is no prohibition to sprinkling and pouring, does that make it ok? You keep saying there is no prohibition to using musical instruments and therefore they must be ok. Look back at my previous email where I list a lot of things that are not specifically prohibited. Does that mean they are ok, or do we need authority to do them? By the way, when I say authority, I am saying do we have a direct statement or command, or do we have an approved apostolic example, or do we have enough scriptures to reach a necessary conclusion.

Actually, we only have one scripture that mentions the Lords Supper on the first day of the week. Acts 20:7 is an example of the church coming together to partake of the Lords Supper on the first day of the week. There is no scripture that prohibits taking it only once a month or once a year. We have the example of when the church did it. So we have authority to do it on the first day of the week and there is a first day in every week.

We know that the Sinner's prayer is not scriptural cause we know according to John 9:31 "now we know God hears not sinners , but if any man be a worshiper of God, and does his will, him he hears." How can they call it a sinners prayer when according to Scripture God doesn't hear sinners? Glad me and you can agree on that one. Also, the salvation pattern in the Book of Acts and elsewhere in Scripture doesn't line up with that teaching. I have to run to work my friend, God bless,

I am confident there are many things we agree on. Things like the deity of Christ, the virgin birth of Christ, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, and many, many other things. Our discussion relates to the use of mechanical instruments of music in worship. I don't find authority for their use.

May the Lord bless you as you serve Him.

[email]

Greetings my friend,

The point I was trying to make is that while we may state our opinions, ultimately what matters is what the Bible teaches. Thus, emphasis should be on the Scriptures. Does the Scriptures teach anywhere you are not allowed to use instruments in worship? If ultimately what matters is what the Bible teaches were is your proof for authorization that it isn't allowed?

What I am saying is that we cant go to the Old Testament for our authority today. The Hebrew writer made it very clear in Heb. 8:6-13 that we are under a new covenant, the law of Christ. We need to examine the law of Christ and do what He has authorized. Howbeit we are to abide by the new covenant for our ultimate authority, the Old Testament does carry some authority for today.

The Ten Commandments didn't originate in the new covenant and yet we abide by them. Jesus said in Matt. 5:17-"I did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

When you say the Lord never stopped the use of instruments, if you mean by that He never specifically said those words, you are correct. But, He also never specifically said to stop observing the Sabbath, the offering of animal sacrifices, etc. What He did say was that the old law was removed (Col. 2:14) and nailed to the cross. He took it all away. Then He has told us what we are to do. Some of the things He said they were to do under the Law of Moses He has repeated in the NT for us. Nine of the ten commandments are repeated in the NT in one form or another. But, He never repeats the observance of the Sabbath. We are told to worship on the Lords day, the first day of the week. He has told us to do certain things, i.e., teach, pray, take the Lords Supper, contribute of our means and to sing. But, where did He ever say play on an instrument of music? Where is the authority in the NT for such? As you correctly say, we live under the New Covenant. That covenant never mentions the instrument of music. I'm not sure I understand why you want to tie in instrumental music along with Sabbaths, and animal sacrifices, and the Law of Moses?

I've already noted that the Sabbath day was addressed for Israel to keep, the slaves, and those who joined the Hebrew people. Not for gentile Christians. The same can be said for animal sacrifices as well. I could be wrong but in the Pentateuch, nothing is commanded there specifically that we have to worship the Lord with instruments.

So why are you equating instrumental music on the same playing field with Sabbaths, and sacrifices?

Actually the new covenant does mention instrumental music. According to Ephesians 5:19-"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord." Psalms means "Strong's: #5568 "...A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode [accompanied with the voice, harp or other instruments; a 'psalm']; collectively the book of the Psalms..."

The verse says " singing and making melody." How do you make a melody without an instrument?

To say instrumental music isn't authorized in the new covenant isn't really being truthful.

Yes, I am. But, that does not prove anything? They dont have authority for doing such other than they like it I guess. Truthfully, I like it myself. I have heard some pretty awful singing in my day. The question is, does the Lord like it? And if He liked it and wanted us to use instruments, why didnt He tell us? He told us other things He wanted us to do. And why dont we find a single example of a New Testament church using them? And why was it almost a 1,000 years after the New Testament was written before we find a church using them? Why would the Lord not like it? He authorized it in the Old Testament. We don't find an example of a New Testament church using sound systems either, so lets get rid of them. Instruments make a noise, so do sound systems when they crackle and make popping sounds. Do you really believe God is going to get ticked off at you for a playing an instrument in worship and service to him? I wonder if God really disliked David praising him with a harp? My friend Jesus isn't legalistic. If you study the life of Christ you will be amazed at how many traditions Jesus broke just to demonstrate and show God's love for humanity.

I am well aware that most churches use the instrument of music in their worship. A majority does not always mean that a position is correct. There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, but that does not mean God approves of Islam. Amen!

Yes, there are a lot of scriptures that teach baptism is immersion. But, there is no scripture that says sprinkling and pouring for baptism is wrong. So, since there is no prohibition to sprinkling and pouring, does that make it ok? You keep saying there is no prohibition to using musical instruments and therefore they must be ok. Look back at my previous email where I list a lot of things that are not specifically prohibited. Does that mean they are ok, or do we need authority to do them? By the way, when I say authority, I am saying do we have a direct statement or command, or do we have an approved apostolic example, or do we have enough scriptures to reach a necessary conclusion.

Actually, we only have one scripture that mentions the Lords Supper on the first day of the week. Acts 20:7 is an example of the church coming together to partake of the Lords Supper on the first day of the week. There is no scripture that prohibits taking it only once a month or once a year. We have the example of when the church did it. So we have authority to do it on the first day of the week and there is a first day in every week.

Sprinkling and pouring is a substitute that was established my man and not by God. The very Greek word behind baptism means that its an immersion. Sprinkling and pouring is not validated in Scriptures as a substitute.

Instrumental music is not an addition or substitute for anything in God's word.

Instrumental music is in the Scriptures.

The Lord's Supper is in the Scriptures. According to 1 Cor. 11:26- "For as "often" as you eat this bread and drink this cup..." Once a month, every 3 months, or once a year communion services isn't very "often" would you say? If you want to debate the Baptists on that issue be my guest.

Any church that wants to seriously reflect on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus seriously, will take the communion service "often" or every Lord's Day. I don't understand why you think there has to be a specific authority about instruments in worship? Where is the authority that we have to meet in an actual church building as opposed to someone's house?

What about Sunday school class or even the website you have up that addresses the issue of instrumental music?

Do we need permission to worship God if the bible never existed?

Where is the authority for having 2 worship services at church, one in the morning and one in the evening? There is no authority for any of these things and yet we both do them.

I'm not insisting the church should have instrumental music, just that if one does doesn't mean they are not following the New Testament or acceptable to God.

[larry]

Hope you had a happy Thanksgiving and all is well with your family. See my comments below.

Larry

Greetings my friend,



The point I was trying to make is that while we may state our opinions, ultimately what matters is what the Bible teaches. Thus, emphasis should be on the Scriptures. Does the Scriptures teach anywhere you are not allowed to use instruments in worship? If ultimately what matters is what the Bible teaches were is your proof for authorization that it isn't allowed?

I have already answered this question. The Scriptures nowhere say specifically we are not allowed to use instruments in the church. However, they do teach we are not allowed to use them by the complete omission of any mention of them. We have no authority other than we like it. I will ask you again. Where does the Scriptures say we should not have a pope? Where? Since it does not say we cannot have a pope, you would have to agree that it would be ok using your logic. You need to be consistent. Maybe you think a pope would be fine. You certainly could not say it would be wrong because the Bible does not say it is, and because one of your arguments for using the instrument is that they are not specifically condemned. You cant have it both ways and be consistent.

What I am saying is that we cant go to the Old Testament for our authority today. The Hebrew writer made it very clear in Heb. 8:6-13 that we are under a new covenant, the law of Christ. We need to examine the law of Christ and do what He has authorized. Howbeit we are to abide by the new covenant for our ultimate authority, the Old Testament does carry some authority for today.

What authority does the Old Testament carry today? Scripture please. Dont just make comments. The Bible clearly says in Col. 2:14, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.



The Ten Commandments didn't originate in the new covenant and yet we abide by them. Jesus said in Matt. 5:17-"I did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

We dont abide by the Ten Commandments. I am surprised you would make such a statement. We do not keep the Sabbath holy (Ex. 20:8). You need to understand what Jesus is teaching in Matt. 5:17. I will try to explain it to you.



He did not come to destroy the Law. I am come reflects the consciousness of a special mission, but that mission was not to destroy,(to loose, throw down; the Law or the prophets(an idiom denoting the entirety of the Old Testament). Loosening or relaxing the Laws requirements was tantamount to Law destruction. Jesus never destroyed the Law by lowering or down playing its legislation. By word and deed He exemplified the spirit, as well as the letter, of the Law.



Christ came to fulfill the Law of Moses. Fulfill can mean to accomplish or obey, to bring out the full meaning, to complete, or abundantly supply. By His obedience, by satisfying its demand for justice and by being the One to whom it pointed, Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament. The Law would remain valid until it was fulfilled, but once fulfilled it would pass away, go away, come to an end, lose force, become invalid.

II Cor. 3:14, But their minds were hardened. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

Heb. 10:9, then He said, Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God. He takes away the first that He may establish the second.



The Law and the Prophets, the Old Testament, has been taken away. We no longer go there for our authority. We look to the Law of Christ recorded in the New Testament.

When you say the Lord never stopped the use of instruments, if you mean by that He never specifically said those words, you are correct. But, He also never specifically said to stop observing the Sabbath, the offering of animal sacrifices, etc. What He did say was that the old law was removed (Col. 2:14) and nailed to the cross. He took it all away. Then He has told us what we are to do. Some of the things He said they were to do under the Law of Moses He has repeated in the NT for us. Nine of the ten commandments are repeated in the NT in one form or another. But, He never repeats the observance of the Sabbath. We are told to worship on the Lords day, the first day of the week. He has told us to do certain things, i.e., teach, pray, take the Lords Supper, contribute of our means and to sing. But, where did He ever say play on an instrument of music? Where is the authority in the NT for such? As you correctly say, we live under the New Covenant. That covenant never mentions the instrument of music. I'm not sure I understand why you want to tie in instrumental music along with Sabbaths, and animal sacrifices, and the Law of Moses?

The answer is simple, thats why. It was a part of the old law just as were animal sacrifices.



I've already noted that the Sabbath day was addressed for Israel to keep, the slaves, and those who joined the Hebrew people. Not for gentile Christians. The same can be said for animal sacrifices as well. I could be wrong but in the Pentateuch, nothing is commanded there specifically that we have to worship the Lord with instruments.

The Old Testament Law did command such. II Chron. 29:25 reads as follows:



Then he stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, with stringed instruments, and with harps, according to the commandment of David, of Gad the kings seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for thus was the commandment of the Lord by his prophets.



So why are you equating instrumental music on the same playing field with Sabbaths, and sacrifices?

Because it was clearly a part of the Old Testament law.



Actually the new covenant does mention instrumental music. According to Ephesians 5:19-"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord." Psalms means "Strong's: #5568 "...A set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode [accompanied with the voice, harp or other instruments; a 'psalm']; collectively the book of the Psalms..."

Here is the part of Strongs #5568 you conveniently left out. Regarding the New Testament references of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, he says, the phrase is used of one who has it in his heart to sing or recite a song of the sort, I Cor. 14:26. Eph. 5:19 says speaking. It does not say a word about playing. It says singing. It does not say playing.



The verse says " singing and making melody." How do you make a melody without an instrument?

You make melody with the voice. Have you never heard a barbershop quartet sing without instruments? They make music with the voice. With the voice the singing of spiritual songs results in making melody in the heart to the Lord. We have joyously done just what the Lord has authorized.



To say instrumental music isn't authorized in the new covenant isn't really being truthful.

The one failing to be truthful is the one who uses the instrument without authority.

Yes, I am. But, that does not prove anything? They dont have authority for doing such other than they like it I guess. Truthfully, I like it myself. I have heard some pretty awful singing in my day. The question is, does the Lord like it? And if He liked it and wanted us to use instruments, why didnt He tell us? He told us other things He wanted us to do. And why dont we find a single example of a New Testament church using them? And why was it almost a 1,000 years after the New Testament was written before we find a church using them? Why would the Lord not like it? He authorized it in the Old Testament. We don't find an example of a New Testament church using sound systems either, so lets get rid of them. Instruments make a noise, so do sound systems when they crackle and make popping sounds. Do you really believe God is going to get ticked off at you for a playing an instrument in worship and service to him? I wonder if God really disliked David praising him with a harp? My friend Jesus isn't legalistic. If you study the life of Christ you will be amazed at how many traditions Jesus broke just to demonstrate and show God's love for humanity.

The Lord also liked animal sacrifices in the OT. And we have clearly shown the OT has been taken away. It is not about what He liked then. It is about what he likes now. Read Mt. 7:21-23. Jesus said you better have authority for what you do today in verse 23, And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! That is people who do things without authority. Yes, Jesus did break their traditions, but He didnt break the Old Testament law under which He lived. If He returned to earth today and lived among us, He might break your tradition of using instrumental music since it is not part of His law.

I am well aware that most churches use the instrument of music in their worship. A majority does not always mean that a position is correct. There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, but that does not mean God approves of Islam. Amen!



Yes, there are a lot of scriptures that teach baptism is immersion. But, there is no scripture that says sprinkling and pouring for baptism is wrong. So, since there is no prohibition to sprinkling and pouring, does that make it ok? You keep saying there is no prohibition to using musical instruments and therefore they must be ok. Look back at my previous email where I list a lot of things that are not specifically prohibited. Does that mean they are ok, or do we need authority to do them? By the way, when I say authority, I am saying do we have a direct statement or command, or do we have an approved apostolic example, or do we have enough scriptures to reach a necessary conclusion.

Actually, we only have one scripture that mentions the Lords Supper on the first day of the week. Acts 20:7 is an example of the church coming together to partake of the Lords Supper on the first day of the week. There is no scripture that prohibits taking it only once a month or once a year. We have the example of when the church did it. So we have authority to do it on the first day of the week and there is a first day in every week.



Sprinkling and pouring is a substitute that was established my man and not by God. The very Greek word behind baptism means that its an immersion. Sprinkling and pouring is not validated in Scriptures as a substitute.

That is exactly correct. But, where does it say in Scripture specifically that it is wrong to sprinkle or pour for baptism? If you tried to tell someone they didnt have authority for sprinkling or pouring, all they would have to say to you would be it doesnt say it is wrong just like you say it doesnt say instrumental music is wrong. You cant have it both ways.



Instrumental music is not an addition or substitute for anything in God's word.

It is an addition because the Bible never tells a Christian or church to play an instrument in worship today.



Instrumental music is in the Scriptures.

Not in the New Testament.



The Lord's Supper is in the Scriptures. According to 1 Cor. 11:26- "For as "often" as you eat this bread and drink this cup..." Once a month, every 3 months, or once a year communion services isn't very "often" would you say? If you want to debate the Baptists on that issue be my guest.

I would be pleased to debate a Baptist. The problem is you couldnt debate a Baptist even if you wanted to. They would simple say where does the Bible say it is wrong to partake of the Lords supper once a quarter, or once a year. And exactly what would your answer be since you use that same argument to justify your instrument. You cant have it both ways.



Any church that wants to seriously reflect on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus seriously, will take the communion service "often" or every Lord's Day. I don't understand why you think there has to be a specific authority about instruments in worship? Where is the authority that we have to meet in an actual church building as opposed to someone's house?

The authority is in Heb. 10:25 where we are told to assemble. Assembling requires a place. You do believe your church building is authorized dont you?



What about Sunday school class or even the website you have up that addresses the issue of instrumental music?

We are told to teach in Mt. 28:20.



Do we need permission to worship God if the bible never existed?

Ill pass on that question.



Where is the authority for having 2 worship services at church, one in the morning and one in the evening? There is no authority for any of these things and yet we both do them.

I'm not insisting the church should have instrumental music, just that if one does doesn't mean they are not following the New Testament or acceptable to God.

I understand you are not saying that an instrument is necessary. My question is why not just be satisfied to sing since we both know God approves of that. Why even take a chance that He could say that you went beyond His word and practiced lawlessness.



I will do a brief summary. You basically have made two arguments to justify the instrument.

1. They were used in the Old Testament so why not today. I have shown over and over from Scripture that the Old Law has been taken away and is not authority for what we do today.

2. You keep saying over and over that the Bible does not condemn them. To use that approach for authority opens the door for just about anything the mind of man can conceive. We must be consistent. We cant say just because something is not condemned, then it must be ok.



I have given you specific authority for singing (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16). There is no record of the New Testament church ever using instruments of music in worship. The first record of their use comes about 1,000 years after the apostles walked this earth and after the church went into apostasy. If they were authorized, why werent they used in the early church. They certainly had instruments to use. The answer is plain and simple. There was no authority for their use.

Larry

[email]

Greetings my friend,

I could go around with you in circles and I'm beginning to see you that you are blatantly refusing to see my point. I'm beginning to disagree with you on a lot more levels than just instrumental music. I think a lot of Church of Christ pastors and laypeople would disagree with you as well on a lot of your logic. I will say this, on the Eph. 5:19 text it says at the end of that verse" singing" and "MAKE MELODY." You are attempting to explain away Scripture, in which case you are no better than the Baptist who shun Baptism and explain it away as meaning something other than what Scripture says. The text just doesn't say "singing" and "speaking." It says make melody also. You can produce all the literature you want to try to make it say something other than your bias opinion all you want. There is a whole host of literature that explains away your literature for opposing it as well. I suppose both views can't be right can they? A catholic pope and instrumental music isn't on the same level. Again I will say this one last time. Instrumental music is in the Scriptures, whether it be in the narrative, hyperbole, figuratively, etc..POPE IS NOWHERE MENTIONED IN EITHER THE OLD OR NEW COVENANT. The very mention of instruments in worship in mentioned in Scripture. I don't care if you say there is no authorization for them or not. It's mentioned in Scriptures, both Testaments, so get over it. I'm not going to run through the whole entire New Testament and quote scripture to someone who blatantly refuses to see the truth. Don't misunderstand me. I said "mentioned," and not talking about in the worship service. The fact that it is "mentioned" ought to be a key to you, but evidently to you that isn't good enough. I think my last email hit a nerve and I'm not going to debate you based on your pride. Pride is the reason a lot of people won't inherit eternal life. They think they have it all figured out and don't need Jesus. There is no authority in Scripture for a lot of things churches do "INCLUDING THE NON-INSTRUMENTAL CHURCH OF CHRIST" and yet we do them. You guys have a lot of division in your own ranks due to the the whole"authorization" nonsense. If you want to divide the flock over something petty as a stupid instrument in worship, or one cup communion services, or no Sunday school class, or even not having a fellowship all be my guest, but I will have no part with you.

[larry]

I can empathize with your situation. I used to be a member of a denominational church, and like you, I couldnt provide Scripture for my practices. It was frustrating.

However, unlike you, I decided to study the Bible and do only what I could find within its pages. You are choosing just to lash out. I am sorry about that.

I have enjoyed out discussion.

Larry

[email]

Unlike you, I don't belong to a denominational church. I don't divide the flock over petty foolishness. I've provided Scripture and you refuse to see the truth. Therefore there is no hope for you. I will leave you with this: 1 Cor. 10:23 - "Everything is permissible" - but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible - but not everything is constructive." (NIV) At best you can argue that instruments in worship are not "beneficial" or "constructive." However, it's too bad you can't argue that they are not permissible. A believer does have freedom in Christ. Hope someday you will be able to experience that freedom as well.

[larry]

I thought our last two exchanges ended this discussion. But, I am sort of glad you sent this one today. ... You say, I've provided Scripture. I took the time to go back over all exchanges and count the Scriptural references and verses we each provided. You have given 10 references covering 12 verses. I gave 31 references covering 154 verses. Now who has provided Scripture?

Frankly, you don't understand what the last verse you last included teaches. I assume this will end our discussion.

Larry