Death, spiritual or physical?

[JSM17]

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned --
NKJV
1 Cor 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
NKJV

Is it spiritual or physical death that passed on to all men?

[Darrell]

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned --
NKJV
1 Cor 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
NKJV

Is it spiritual or physical death that passed on to all men?

If you think about this logically, you can see that it is a spiritual death when you put these 2 verses together. Christ brought us eternal, spiritual life, which is how we can be made alive. Adam and Eve brought sin into the world, seprating man from God and requiring some way to bridge that separation again, which Christ made possible. Also remember that all doesn't necessarily mean all. All that obey will be made alive. I don't know your knowledge level, but if you still have questions, please post them and I will do my best to answer them for you within my time constraints. Thank you for studying!

[JSM17]

If it is indeed spiritual within the context of those two verses then I walk away thinking that all are spiritually dead in Adam. When did this happen , at birth or when we sin. How does the spiritual deadness of Adam get passed to me? How did the spiritual death pass on to all men? I see that "All men die" When do they die? When they sin (1John3:4) or when the spiritual death is passed to them some other time?

As for in Adam "all die" if it is spiritual then I am wondering when we die spiritual in Adam?

Welcome Darrell

[Darrell]

I will get a reply together for you, but it will have to be after the weekend.

[JSM17]

I look forward to it! I have been studying calvinism for about two months. I have been in discussion with many who hold to this teaching. I have gone back and looked at Augustine and palagious (sp), Then I look at Arminious and of course Calvin.

I do not think that any of these views are fully biblical. But I struggle with Adam and his sin and how it is passed on. I am aware of Ez. 18 and many other passages. I do want to better understand the death, because brethren are divide on this. Some say that we died physycally because of the seperation of the tree of life and that Adam did indeed die spiritually when he sinned. But the guilt and the consequence was a physical one. If it was spiritual then I receive the consequence of his death spiritually, the question then is when does that happen, at birth as many would say (which I have not found evidence for), or when we sin against God?

Look forward to our discussion,
Thanks for your time brother

[Darrell]

First of all, let me say that I believe you are correct. Physical death did enter the world when Adam and Eve sinned. I believe there had been no death before this point. However, I think the spritual death is more significant. Satan used the distinction between the two to trick Eve. He knew God was speaking of spiritual death, yet he ignored that in his conversation with her.

I think the first thing to address is what is the effect of sin. It separates us from God:

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

Sin leads to destruction.

You asked about when sin is upon us, when we sin or when we are born. I know many believe in original sin, but I have never understood why they do. Ezekiel 18 tells us we are only responsible for our own deeds, and only will be judged by those deeds. In Matthew 18, Jesus says,

Mat 18:2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, Mat 18:3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

If we were born with sin upon us, why would he make such a statement? Why would he want us to be converted and be sinful? The logic doesn't seem to support original sin to me. Therefore, it us upon us when we sin, with one caveat. The person has to be aware of their sin (knowing right and wrong, or capable of understanding it). After all, I am sure these children Jesus spoke of were not infants. And we all know at some point, children do things wrong and have to be corrected. But there was no sin to their account at this time.

The spiritual "deadness" of Adam is passed on because sin has entered the world. It is our nature now. By Adam and Eve's sin, they gained the knowledge of right and wrong (morality) and they have the freewill to choose one or the other. Their offspring and all mankind now has this knowledge, because they brought it in. This is how it is passed on: the knowledge, and sin itself.

All men die spiritually if they are not redeemed.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
Rom 6:7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.

and

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Christ redeemed us and gave us an opportunity to obey the gospel and live a life for Him, and we will gain eternal life.

We don't die spiritually "in Adam." I think the word "in" is being given a little too much weight. By his actions, sin and death entered the world. Because of this, we have been given the gospel, an opportunity to escape that everlasting spiritual death.

I hope this helps. If not, please ask questions, and I will attempt to clarify further.

May God bless you in your studies.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

[Darrell]

I also apologize for taking so long to get a response to you. Mondays are my day off, when I run must of my errands, and then Tuesday I spent all day recovering my computer from a virus!

[JSM17]

So are we born with this nature? Is this spiritual death imputed onto us in birth or when we sin? If the death is spiritual that is passed on to all men when does this occur?

If we are dead spiritual through Adam, what happens if we die in that position?

[Darrell]

I am sorry you had to wait for my reply. The end of the week and weekends are very busy for me.

For your first question, I thought I had addressed it with this in my last post:

You asked about when sin is upon us, when we sin or when we are born. I know many believe in original sin, but I have never understood why they do. Ezekiel 18 tells us we are only responsible for our own deeds, and only will be judged by those deeds. In Matthew 18, Jesus says, Quote:
Mat 18:2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, Mat 18:3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
If we were born with sin upon us, why would he make such a statement? Why would he want us to be converted and be sinful? The logic doesn't seem to support original sin to me. Therefore, it us upon us when we sin, with one caveat. The person has to be aware of their sin (knowing right and wrong, or capable of understanding it). After all, I am sure these children Jesus spoke of were not infants. And we all know at some point, children do things wrong and have to be corrected. But there was no sin to their account at this time.

If I wasn't clear or you had a question on it, please tell me.

As far as your question of what happens if we die in a sinful state, please read Matthew 25. I think that will give you the answer you seek.

Keep studying!

[JSM17]

Darrell you said something to me that I have pondered for sometime and have yet to find sufficient scripture for, this to me does not mean it is not true, it is just that I struggle with anything that is yet to be proven to me scripturally. Here is what you said:

The person has to be aware of their sin (knowing right and wrong, or capable of understanding it). After all, I am sure these children Jesus spoke of were not infants. And we all know at some point, children do things wrong and have to be corrected. But there was no sin to their account at this time.

It seems to me that one does have to understand that they are transgressing Gods laws according to 1 John 3:4, but does the fact that they are ignorant excuse that fact that sin can occur without the knowledge of the sinner. If I sin today and do not realize I have done something wrong is that sin? I think of Paul when he was persecuting Christians with a good conscience, did he sin even though he did not now what he was doing was actually against God? So when does one die, when he can acknowledge his sin before God or before he can acknowledge his sin? Does this sin produce death (spiritually or physically) before or after acknowledgment?



So the question for me is still begged :

Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned -- NKJV
1 Cor 15:22
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
NKJV

When do we die this death, only when we can acknowledge our sin before God? (Scripture?, possibly 1 John 3:4, is it a understanding of the trangression only?)

The point is most of us have children and when a child is 8-10 years of age they can understand that they sin against God, but they cannot yet fully understand the redemptive work of God. They do not fully understand forgiveness of sins, does this excuse then from being guilty?

For me I am convinced that the death within the context of Roman 5 and 1 Corinth. 15 is physical death and not spiritual. I believe that scripture do teach that one does die spiritually when he sins i am just not sure when that occurs inthe life of a human. As for these other questions I am still looking into them, hope these questions will stimulate more thought into the issue. Look foreward to hearing from those who may have a better insight than I, or at least a different one.

Thanks

[Darrell]

I have been out of town for a week. I will try to get a reply to your questions this week. Thank you for being patient.