Does god really help avg joes

[thetruth1]

My view is that there a lot of people who put their hope and faith in gods hands. They think as long as they are good Christians god will save them, perform miracles for them, answer their prayers, and help out with the bills sometimes.

when Christ was in trouble, such as being nailed to a cross, why didn't god help out? I mean it was his own son?
I know he had to die for other peoples sins (which i have no idea how that is moral or just) but, couldn't god take him to heaven a little early so he didn't have to suffer so much pain? Maybe god could have dropped down from the heavens, told people about their sins (In person!) then take Jesus away in some sort of theatrical way to show people that god exists. But nope, god just watches his son die a slow and painful death for what other people did wrong.
Now if god didn't do anything for his own son why would he ever do anything for us?

some people might get riled up with all the wrong things i just said but, i am not in church and do not know the bible that well so plz just post what you think on the subject. just don't be too, lengthy plz. Just short, simple and awesome ideas

thanks,
from your immoral, godless, sinning, going to hell, atheist =)
Aaron

[m273p15c]

No, god does not help people, because gods do not exist. However, yes, God does help people, since He cares about people as a father does for a son. (I realize you are an atheist, but some common respect would be greatly appreciated. I know you do not respect Jesus as an authority, but please try to treat others as you would like to be treated - Matthew 7:12.)

However, God does not always help people as you might think is best, or even as I think is best. If He was limited to think like you and me, He wouldn't be God, would He?

God's revealed plan does not seek as many followers as possible, regardless of means. God is seeking those who seek Him and His ways (goodness, honor, love, justice, mercy, etc.):

"God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising." (Acts 17:24-29)

God's desire is not to force an army of lesser creatures into subjection, but to persuade them to be His volunteers (Psalm 110:3; Philemon 1:12-14; II Corinthians 9:7):

"I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will guide you with My eye. Do not be like the horse or like the mule, which have no understanding, which must be harnessed with bit and bridle, else they will not come near you. (Psalm 32:8-9)

There is no great satisfaction in subduing witless animals, subjecting them to do your will. If God were to overwhelm mankind with His great power, He would doubtless receive the recognition and honor you projected. However, it would not be true, and it would not endure, because it would be an outward conversion under the weight of sheer power and fear.

God's essence, the part of His being that He lifts up as an ensign, is His character (II Peter 1:2-11), which is clearly revealed in the meek and humble person of Jesus:

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)

God suffered His Son to die on the cross for many reasons. Multiple themes climaxed there. One thing that God demonstrated was His sense of justice and mercy (Romans 3:25-26). (Sin, or injustice cannot just be dismissed. It must be reckoned, which requires mercy, and in this case, it required the Creator to suffer for the creation.) Another thing He demonstrated was His power, not just in the resurrection (Hebrews 2:8-18; I Corinthians 15:1-4, 12-20), but in the way He stripped the Devil of all His arguments and power (Ephesians 3:9-11; Colossians 2:15). After the cross, the Devil no longer had any basis, real or imaginary, for accusing the Lord or His saints (Revelation 7-12). Another theme is the role of suffering...

In the Lord's permitting of Jesus (and us) to suffer, He accomplishes many things:

1. He takes away the Devil's accusation. The Devil can no longer accuse God of protecting Jesus (or us) and building a "hedge" around us. God has demonstrated His confidence in His people by permitting the Devil to often have his way with His people, like Jesus. The introduction to Job's story (Job 1-2) has a very interesting look into the unseen workings between God, the Devil, and man. Here we find this very accusation from the Devil, God's confidence in His servants, and God's willingness to permit the Devil to try Job.
2. He brings glory to the sufferer. Just as Job was exonerated and vindicated before the Devil and that heavenly court, all who suffer and remain faithful are likewise promised a place of honor and glory from the Lord (I Peter 4:13; 5:1, 10; Revelation 2:10-11, 17). Although Jesus died horribly on the cross, He reigns in unspeakable splendor in heaven, primarily because He was willing to suffer and accomplish a marvelous feat (Luke 24:25-27; Revelation 5:1-14; Daniel 7:13-14).
3. Through suffering Jesus both experienced and demonstrated the ability to sympathize with our sufferings (Hebrews 4:14-16). No one can say, "God does not know how I feel!" Yes, He knows exactly how you feel, because He suffered and was tempted in all points, yet He overcame. This takes away an excuse we may use to prohibit our growth (John 15:22-24), but it also provides encouragement knowing that we have a merciful, faithful, sympathetic Mediator (Hebrews 4:14-16; 2:17-18). Related, Jesus' suffering provides an example of how and why we should suffer (I Peter 2:20-24).
4. Suffering strengthens our faith and helps to produce wisdom and patience (James 1:2-8). Occasionally, it may help to brings us back to the Lord (Psalm 119:67, 71; Hebrews 12:3-13).

Many more things could be said, maybe should be said, but these came readily to mind at this time.

Finally, yes, God helps average Joes. He ensures that His saints have food and shelter, if they seek His kingdom first (Matthew 6:25-34). And, He promises to help all find the ultimate truth, who truly seek it (Matthew 7:7-11). However, the truth is that overcoming suffering is part of the path to glory!

Consider this: If God had employed your technique, the world would be full of mindless, cowering sycophants who would react only on instinct to an intimidating, overwhelming influence, and would seek their own whenever they imagined God was not looking. They would neither love, understand, nor choose God. They would be of little difference than the animals. However, using God's own method, He has separated a volunteer army, zealous for doing good, not because they were harassed into doing it, but because they answered God's call, loved Him, and were transformed in character to be like Him.

Which would you rather have? A child who answers your every whim out of fear of punishment or desire for reward, or an heir who understands you, respects your character, loves you, and seeks you and to be like you? Suffering is part of God's plan to separate and produce that second child.

[thetruth1]

I don't get it.
You say that god doesn't want to fear people into believing in him yet for every one that doesn't he is going to send them to a fiery hell to be tortured and burned for eternity.
thats not a scary thought at all! you tell a young kid that umm... their ganna do what you tell em.

If god made everything why would he make the devil?
If god was so supreme why would he make Jesus suffer just because the devil made an accusation?
why was god so intent on impressing the devil. Was the devil so cool that god would make the people he 'loved' suffer just to prove a point?

You say god is merciful but, if you aren't a good Christian you go straight to hell when you die. Wow I could never be that kind.

Like you said god uses persuasion not force because having your flesh being burned for eternity is an nice way of persuading people.

Just to clarify because i don't know what people think, Jesus = God or Jesus = son of God or both? If hes both hes his own father.

You say Jesus's suffering is to show gods mercy. do you mean on the people, or on jesus?
you also says it shows his just. If you were sentenced to death for someone else's murdering, would that be ok to you? I know that you would be ok with it because its god's will, right?

Why does god like when people suffer? you said he praises people that suffer. I dont like to suffer whether if its gods will or not.
suffering=bad

thanks,

[m273p15c]

I don't get it.

No, I don't suppose you will. That's not meant to be quippy, but faith is a primary component of the answer to your questions. Essentially, you are indirectly challenging God's existence by questioning His competency. The believer rests His faith not on his approval of God's judgments, but on the complexity of the creation (design demands designer, first cause, etc.) and the witness of the Bible (integrity of transmission, fulfilled prophecy, record of miracles, etc.). The believer accepts God's judgments on faith, not the other way around. If you are truly researching how to debate and understand the believer, then you need to learn to think as they do.

Even though faith is the primary answer, as God demonstrated in His answer to Job (essentially, "Trust me. I know what I'm doing."), I have tried to answer your questions as best as I understand according to the Bible. Many of these answers come from putting several passages together. It is possible that I have not drawn the correct conclusions, and others may come behind me or along side of me, refining or correcting my logic. I am sympathetic to your questions, because I have wondered about many of these myself, and in as much as I believe the Bible has offered an answer, I have tried to give it.

You say that god doesn't want to fear people into believing in him yet for every one that doesn't he is going to send them to a fiery hell to be tortured and burned for eternity.
thats not a scary thought at all! you tell a young kid that umm... their ganna do what you tell em.

Hell is a reality, and fear is a natural and expected reaction to that reality. Fear often plays a motivating role in conversion and preservation of the young (or weak) Christian; however, it is not strong enough to propel one into maturity. Love overcomes fear and is the primary driver in the mature Christian (I John 4:18).

If god made everything why would he make the devil?

Who said the Devil was made evil? I believe that is your assumption. God made some other being, and he corrupted himself into the Devil, (which literally means "accuser, slanderer"). I think this is a necessary conclusion, since God made all things (Colossians 1:16, 17), and in Him, no evil dwells (I John 1:5). The exact, primary function of the being who became the Devil is not revealed, although speculations abound. Generally, we know that it was good, because all beings are originally made to serve God (Colossians 1:16).

If god was so supreme why would he make Jesus suffer just because the devil made an accusation?
why was god so intent on impressing the devil. Was the devil so cool that god would make the people he 'loved' suffer just to prove a point?

Silencing the Devil was not the primary reason for the cross or suffering. Although it may have served as the occasion for the suffering, the primary point of suffering is to satisfy His just nature and bring good to the sufferer (Romans 8:28). This is just one of many themes that were realized at the cross. Certainly, it was not the primary reason. Be careful that you do not pounce on a lesser thought and elevate it beyond the significance of the first thoughts.

You say god is merciful but, if you aren't a good Christian you go straight to hell when you die. Wow I could never be that kind.

You forget that God is merciful and just, which is the reason for the cross. God's just nature required a propitiation for sins. Jesus paid the price for us (Romans 3:24-25; I John 2:2). God's justice required reckoning. God's mercy provided Christ as a sacrifice. If man rejects God's mercy, then he will face God's justice alone after death. God cannot change His nature. He must be true to His identity (II Timothy 2:11-13).

Like you said god uses persuasion not force because having your flesh being burned for eternity is an nice way of persuading people.

Fear is one part of the "persuasion package". If one fears because he believes God to be an arbitrary, cowering dictator, then he has not understood God or the gospel. Fear for God should grow out of recognition of one's sins and realization that justice demands reckoning. Until one believes in a Creator and obligation to Him, then sin, punishment, and fear will seem strange.

Furthermore, you misunderstand both heaven and hell. Heaven is heaven because God is there. Hell is hell because God is entirely not there. There is nothing good there. Hell is a complete separation from God. If God brought an unsaved person to heaven, I imagine it would be hell for him, because he hates God.

Just to clarify because i don't know what people think, Jesus = God or Jesus = son of God or both? If hes both hes his own father.

I believe that 3 beings possess divine attributes, and could therefore be called "God": the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. They are united perfectly, such that they can be thought of as "one", yet they are really 3 beings.

Other people believe the Holy Spirit is not a person. He is just a personification of God's power. Some go farther and suggest that Jesus is also an incarnation of the Father, so they would believe that all 3 are same being. I do not think the Scriptures teach this. See these articles for more info:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... deity.html
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles/trinity.html

You say Jesus's suffering is to show gods mercy. do you mean on the people, or on jesus?

It is the means of salvation for those who did not deserve it; therefore, the cross was a demonstration of mercy for us.

you also says it shows his just. If you were sentenced to death for someone else's murdering, would that be ok to you? I know that you would be ok with it because its god's will, right?

You misunderstand the gospel. Jesus volunteered to suffer in that way so we could be saved. At any point, He could have backed out (John 10:15-18; Matthew 26:53-54), and we would have all been lost eternally.

Why does god like when people suffer? you said he praises people that suffer. I dont like to suffer whether if its gods will or not.
suffering=bad

True, pointless suffering is bad. However, if one suffers to accomplish something admirable, then that suffering brings honor to the one willing to endure for the sake of his goal.

Even in this life, people don't generally get raises, receive medals, or garner accolades because they did something easy or trivial. They receive these things because they suffer depravation, risk, toil, or anguish for the sake of something admirable, like the benefit of others (soldier, teacher, doctor, firemen, etc.).

Remember, I accept many of these things based on faith. You will only strengthen my convictions through scoffing. Peer pressure doesn't make a true convert any more than fear alone, because it is fear! ... Furthermore, why do you use fear, intimidation, and ridicule to build your case and make converts? How can you condemn a being for doing what you attempt? ... If you really want to debate Christians, then you must know that strong Christians are highly logical and reasonable. Their faith is based on evidence. If you want to win the debate, you must understand that evidence and remove it in a kind, honest, considerate way. If you handle the evidence unfairly, then you will lose credibility. If you scoff, then you will be rejected out of hand.

[thetruth1]

if god loves us why would he even make a hell in the first place. if the devil turned out bad why didn't he get rid of him.
you say Christianity is based on evidence. What evidence, i am yet to see any. So a couple people back a couple thousand years ago said they saw a miracle. whats more likely, that a miracle happened or those people just told a lie.
If you look around you will see that people lie, a lot. People will always lie if it suits their purposes. whether they swore on the bible or not.

I think christianity should get a lot more scoffing then it is now. Millions of people have died and are dying because of that book and others like it. The witch hunts, the crusades, car bombings all in the name of faith. Religion provides all the justification for immoral acts.

this quote says it best: "evil people will do evil, good people will try to do good, but if you want a good person to do evil; that takes religion."
not all religions and not all people.
The only evidence for god is when you die, and the dead aren't talkin.
You can say that Jesus was resurrected, but i don't buy that.
If you look at all the poverty, disease, murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, invasions, wars and starving people you must say god does very bad work. I would never higher god to run my universe.
you can say god must not think like us, and i agree hes a lunatic.

[m273p15c]

if god loves us why would he even make a hell in the first place.

Hell was not made for us. It was made for the Devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). However, if we follow the Devil, whether through neglect or deliberation, we will find a home there too (Matthew 25:31-44; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:7-8).

if the devil turned out bad why didn't he get rid of him.

God will - eventually (II Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6; Revelation 20:7-10). However, in the meantime, He both has the right and appears to be exercising the right to use him for His own purposes, as has used other evil beings to accomplish His work, even though they did not know it, because they intended to do evil (Romans 9:17, 22-23; Habakkuk 1:5-17).

you say Christianity is based on evidence. What evidence, i am yet to see any.

Evidence abounds. Since you are discussing this topic with Jeffrey, I will not interrupt. However, I would be happy to discuss it another time.

So a couple people back a couple thousand years ago said they saw a miracle. whats more likely, that a miracle happened or those people just told a lie.

A careful analysis of the witness suggests otherwise. Here's a recent sermon I heard that provides a good introduction to a legal, logical analysis of the witness:

http://209.51.142.198/Audio/Sermon_0619 ... edible.mp3

http://www.eastside-church.org/Sermons/ ... edible.ppt

After you listen to it, and look over the charts, please let me know what you think. I would be happy to discuss it with you.

If you look around you will see that people lie, a lot. People will always lie if it suits their purposes. whether they swore on the bible or not.

So, what's your point? Because some people lie, all people lie? This proves nothing.

I think christianity should get a lot more scoffing then it is now. Millions of people have died and are dying because of that book and others like it. The witch hunts, the crusades, car bombings all in the name of faith. Religion provides all the justification for immoral acts.

Again, why do you employ scoffing if you condemn fear-based motivation? Is not scoffing a form of intimidation and peer-pressure, techniques rooted in fear? This seems hypocritical to me.

this quote says it best: "evil people will do evil, good people will try to do good, but if you want a good person to do evil; that takes religion."
not all religions and not all people.

So, because some people, who wore the label, "Christian", did evil things to fulfill their own agenda, therefore, all Christians are evil? Hitler's genocide was rooted in Darwinism. Does that make all atheistic, evolutions equivalent to Hitler?

The only evidence for god is when you die, and the dead aren't talkin.

So, evidence is limited to what you personally, empirically experience? Can you prove that George Washington lived? I don't see him now. I guess he did not exist. ... Neither historical facts nor future events can be verified using the scientific method. It is beyond the scope of the tool.

You can say that Jesus was resurrected, but i don't buy that.

How do you explain the empty tomb?

If you look at all the poverty, disease, murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, invasions, wars and starving people you must say god does very bad work. I would never higher god to run my universe.
you can say god must not think like us, and i agree hes a lunatic.

The difference here is that I believe that this universe became doomed the instant sin entered. God has no intentions of saving this universe. In fact, He plans to destroy it in a sudden release of heat and noise (II Peter 3:10-13).

Death and all evils are a result of sin. If you want a universe without genocide, disease, poverty, murder, wars, etc., then you want a universe without sin. Have you considered heaven (Revelation 21:1-4, 22-26)? No hypocrites will be allowed to enter there. If you want to avoid hypocrisy, I would suggest you avoid hell.

[thetruth1]

thanks for explaining what the bible says on certain matters and not getting involved with me and Jeffrey's conversation =)

I listened to some of the sermon and read the power point looking forward for something debatable but then i found out that the eye witness accounts were in the bible! So the evidence of eye witness accounts that support claims made in the bible are written in the very thing they are trying to prove, and written by the very people who wish to prove it. The people who wrote the bible knew that there would be no evidence to support their statements so they added some lines that obviously were created not just to justify things that never happened, but also to directly oppose the arguments made by people that haven't been coerced to believing these false stories. They say that the people who wrote these eye witness accounts had nothing to gain. That is an outright lie. They sought to gain control of stupid peasants and take their money. Today churches rake in billions of dollars and the Vatican is one of the most wealth hording places on earth.
But Christianity is nothing special or different from countless other religiouns that came before it and are around today. Like Buddhism, Hindu, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, ect, ect, they contain almost the same story or at least some key features. Born of a virgin, crucified on a cross, dead for three days, then resurrected. Its just a big fairy tale that has been around for thousands of years.
Jesus wasn't real, he's just a metaphor for the SUN. The bringer of the age of the Pisces, a zodiac of the two fish. When they said he gave millions of people bread and TWO FISH, he didn't preform a miracle he just ushered in the age of the Pisces. Most people that have the Jesus fish on their car don't even know why. Christianity is completely astrological, like all the religions previous to it.

I never said all people lied, it is just kind of annoying when people swear on the bible and every one watching thinks that now hes more likely to tell the truth. Thats a lie.

You said scoffing fears people. Maybe at school but this is different. I dont think you feel intimidated if i mock christianity. Religions have been treated like little children- you have to be nice. I have no reason to be nice to something that has caused so much anguish and torment.

Some people wear the label of Christian to do horrible things, but most of the time the people believe that god told them to burn witches or kill people for holy land, or blow up an orphanage, or burn non-believers at the stake. People that do bad things in the name of god are devout believers, which justifies their actions, which some one who doesn't believe could never think that that action could be moral or justified. When did i ever say all christians are evil. You keep twisting what i say. What i mean is that moral people can only do immoral acts and evil acts if only provided with divine justification. You say Hitler was a confirmed atheist and by all means he might have been, but he was fully supported by the Pope and the catholic church. Atheists can do immoral acts too but their reasons for their acts are not because of their beliefs while the same can not be said for people who do believe in god.
The evil done because of divine justification greatly out ways the evil done with out.
Hitler was insane, his reasons are irrelevant, he was just a crazy person given too much power.

The proof for Jesus is eye witness accounts written in the bible. see any conflict of interests?
The empty tomb just shows how he never existed.
You last remark says god does not care for this universe and will destroy it. And before in another post you said he loves us. make up your mind. If god made us then he made sin, and then he made us pay for the thing he created in us, then hes going to destroy us, and he loves us? I know you will say that he loves those who love him but how can you love something that isnt real?

[m273p15c]

I listened to some of the sermon and read the power point looking forward for something debatable but then i found out that the eye witness accounts were in the bible! So the evidence of eye witness accounts that support claims made in the bible are written in the very thing they are trying to prove, and written by the very people who wish to prove it.

What did you expect? In a court case, people who witness a event usually believe it. The Bible, especially the New Testament, proposes to be an eye-witness account. The sermon addresses the credibility of the witness, which is what you called into question. Do you want a witness for the witness? How about a witness for him? Will he need a witness for him too? How many witnesses are required? ... I would suggest you listen to to the lecture fairly, instead of looking for a reason to dismiss it and doing so rashly.

The people who wrote the bible knew that there would be no evidence to support their statements so they added some lines that obviously were created not just to justify things that never happened, but also to directly oppose the arguments made by people that haven't been coerced to believing these false stories.e

Even a brief overview of Christian apologetics will produce quotes from non-believers that verify Jesus existed, was crucified by Pilate, and that His followers claim He was resurrected. If you doubt the historicity of those facts, then you are raising a standard that would doubt the historicity of everything that you have not personally experienced. ... Again, what basis would you suggest for verifying the veracity of any historical claim? I believe any fair, consistent standard that you suggest to validate accepted events (George Washington, the American Revolution, etc.) will also embrace the resurrection. If you would like to discuss these, let's start another thread, since this thread is about whether God helps the average person, not whether God exists or the Bible is true.

They say that the people who wrote these eye witness accounts had nothing to gain. That is an outright lie. They sought to gain control of stupid peasants and take their money.

This is an assertion. History shows that each of the apostles were impoverished and died horrible deaths (sawed in two, crucified upside down, banished to desolate islands, etc.). They did not become rich or powerful, and they maintained their story to death. What scam artist would do that? If you disagree, then I suggest you start another thread.

Today churches rake in billions of dollars and the Vatican is one of the most wealth hording places on earth.

Admittedly, many historians have associated "Christianity" with "Catholicism"; however, many Christians (especially "Protestants") would denounce Catholicism. ... The local church where I worship, although being quite large, maintains a balance less than the personal savings of many people. Over 85% of the funds leave each month in supporting preachers or performing benevolence. The rest pays light bill, water bill, etc. ... Again, just because some people abuse or pervert a noble cause, you should not assume that everybody does so, neither should you assume the original cause is ignoble.

But Christianity is nothing special or different from countless other religiouns that came before it and are around today. Like Buddhism, Hindu, Egyptian, Greek, Roman, ect, ect, they contain almost the same story or at least some key features. Born of a virgin, crucified on a cross, dead for three days, then resurrected. Its just a big fairy tale that has been around for thousands of years.
Jesus wasn't real, he's just a metaphor for the SUN. The bringer of the age of the Pisces, a zodiac of the two fish. When they said he gave millions of people bread and TWO FISH, he didn't preform a miracle he just ushered in the age of the Pisces. Most people that have the Jesus fish on their car don't even know why. Christianity is completely astrological, like all the religions previous to it.

This is pure assertion! This has no more power than me saying, "You're wrong!" Are you trying to debate or stir up a shouting match? If you don't want me resting my arguments on mere assertion, please don't offer any yourself.

I never said all people lied, it is just kind of annoying when people swear on the bible and every one watching thinks that now hes more likely to tell the truth. Thats a lie.

I never said you did. You should read and write more carefully:

If you look around you will see that people lie, a lot. People will always lie if it suits their purposes. whether they swore on the bible or not.

So, what's your point? Because some people lie, all people lie? This proves nothing.

Again, what's your point? Why are you raising this point except to dismiss the witness of the Bible? If that's the case, then your observation is neither novel nor effective, because it proves nothing. Unless you are willing to assert that all people lie, then your observation offers nothing.

You said scoffing fears people. Maybe at school but this is different. I dont think you feel intimidated if i mock christianity.

Surely, you don't believe it's convincing? So, why do you do it, unless you hope to motivate people through intimidation and fear? An honest man relies on the trutfulness of his words, nothing more.

Religions have been treated like little children- you have to be nice. I have no reason to be nice to something that has caused so much anguish and torment.

Again, you unfairly lump all religions and all Christians in the same basket? As you asked previously, have you met all the millions of us? It seems you like to dish out what you cannot take.

Some people wear the label of Christian to do horrible things, but most of the time the people believe that god told them to burn witches or kill people for holy land, or blow up an orphanage, or burn non-believers at the stake. People that do bad things in the name of god are devout believers, which justifies their actions, which some one who doesn't believe could never think that that action could be moral or justified. When did i ever say all christians are evil. You keep twisting what i say.

I guess I assumed you brought up things to make a point. ... What is the point of saying that religion causes people to do bad things? Unless you assume that fact means all religions are wrong, there is no logical value in mentioning that some are bad. It seems you are continually making this logical error, for example:

"All ducks are birds; therefore, all birds are ducks."

Just because some birds are ducks, you cannot assume all are. ... The converse of a true statement is not necessarily true, as demonstrated above.

Likewise, just because some people did horrible things in the name of religion, even a good one, we should not assume that all religions are bad or all followers of certain religion are bad. If that was not your point, then what was it? Were you trying to mislead, confuse, or just ramble? If there was some other reason that was relevant to the topic, I would be glad to know what it was. ... Obviously, I thought you were trying to prove something; otherwise, I would not be pressing you so.

What i mean is that moral people can only do immoral acts and evil acts if only provided with divine justification. You say Hitler was a confirmed atheist and by all means he might have been, but he was fully supported by the Pope and the catholic church.

Which only confirms my denouncement of them. This holds no value to me.

Atheists can do immoral acts too but their reasons for their acts are not because of their beliefs while the same can not be said for people who do believe in god.

So, why did Hitler do it? Because of somebody else's beliefs? Your statements are nonsense.

The evil done because of divine justification greatly out ways the evil done with out.

I disagree. None of the things you mentioned were done because of true Christianity. They were done because of evil people who wore a cloak of Christianity to cover-up or enable their agenda. ... Again, I denounce these things, and I would use the Bible to prove they are wrong. So, mentioning them is of no value to your case, that I can see.

Hitler was insane, his reasons are irrelevant, he was just a crazy person given too much power.

No, he's very relevant. It shows that a group of people are not necessarily wrong because some of them are wrong. Otherwise, atheism and evolution is wrong, because Hitler was clearly wrong. ... Again, I am using reduction to the absurd to the show the error of you assuming the converse is true.

The proof for Jesus is eye witness accounts written in the bible. see any conflict of interests?

I would, if they were the only witness, if they were inconsistent, if they gained something, etc. However, by all accounts, they maintained their story in consistency and faithfulness, while losing everything.

The empty tomb just shows how he never existed.

Look, let's get straight to the point. You have no interest in really examining evidence. You are just looking for things that bolster your preconceived convictions. Otherwise, you would grapple with the arguments. It seems you just came here to make fun and collect counter-arguments. If your flippant and shallow handling of the above argument has another rational explanation, I would be glad to hear it. Otherwise, I'm done. ... How can you expect someone to respect you or your words, if you demonstrate no respect for them?

You last remark says god does not care for this universe and will destroy it. And before in another post you said he loves us. make up your mind. If god made us then he made sin, and then he made us pay for the thing he created in us, then hes going to destroy us, and he loves us? I know you will say that he loves those who love him

No, God made us with free will, and He made us good. Between, the Devil, his angels, and us, we made sin. If I was Calvinist, you might have a point, but I am not, and therefore, you do not.

but how can you love something that isnt real?

For the purpose of the this thread, didn't you already grant that He exists, given the title of the thread, "does god help average joes"?

When you get ready to fairly and honestly discuss the evidence instead of bluffing and scoffing, let me know. Otherwise, I think the sermons I listed, in addition to the material we have on this web-site are sufficient:

http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... #evidences