James verses Paul

[JSM17]

Are all works excluded from salvation? Are Paul and James in a fued about salvation and works? Did Paul preach a different message than James? I Hope we will not have to deal with dispensationalistic Gospels to try to answer this question, because there is only one Gospel to the Jew and Gentile alike, God shows no partiality!

Rom 4:2-6
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
NASU

James 2:14-26
a What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, " Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
NASU

So what makes these works different, or what makes them the same.

I know this for sure, that in one scripture it seems as to what ever works Abraham could not be justified by(Romans 4) are not the same works in which does save (James 2)

What says ye are all works the same?

[sledford]

There is a key to understanding the difference in the phrase "of the Law". Do a phrase search in your favorite Bible program (which I did for the King James version), and you'll find 36 hits in the New Testament with 17 of those in Romans alone. Just by looking at the list, one has to reach the conclusion that Paul is emphasizing a point in Romans about things "of the Law".

13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Here Paul is emphasizing the point that the Old Law demanded perfect works to be declared righteous. Since man has not, and will not, perform the works of the Law perfectly then the Old Law will not save just as Paul concludes in Romans 3:23. And so Paul goes on further in Romans and establishes the main theme of his letter and how "works of the Law" will not save:

20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.

27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.
28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

I emphasized the phrase "law of faith" for the reason Paul did himself: what we are under now is different from the Old Law in that to be saved under the Old Law required perfect works but the New Covenant, the law of faith, thanks be to God, does not require perfect works. That does not mean that the New Covenant doesn't require ANY works but that it doesn't require PERFECT works.

[Mel]

If works help save us then Christ's suffering and death was all in vain.
James says that works perfect our faith. Most of James is about showing our works. Man seeks to justify himself before other men and before God. My suggestion is to do a word search of the word justify and let the Bible define the word.

Are we saved by faith or works? No.

Are saved by faith and works? No.

Are we save by faith that works. Yes.
I believe that we are saved by faith that works.

Romans says that working not is a condition of salvation.
Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(KJV)

I see nothing in the rules discouraging us from referring to an outside source so I would like to reccommend that you read Justification and the Book of James by Michael Pearl.
http://shop.nogreaterjoy.org/product_in ... ucts_id/58

It is an excellent source on this subject. As true Bible students we should use all resources available to us and not be confined to what we are comfortable with. We might be wrong. I have been.

[sledford]

If works help save us then Christ's suffering and death was all in vain.

Mel, mind if I ask a question? What do you mean by "help save us"? I'm not sure that's all clear to me what you mean given the comments you make in a short bit later.

James says that works perfect our faith. Most of James is about showing our works. Man seeks to justify himself before other men and before God. My suggestion is to do a word search of the word justify and let the Bible define the word.

Are we saved by faith or works? No.

Are saved by faith and works? No.

Are we save by faith that works. Yes.
I believe that we are saved by faith that works.

You asked some good questions above but let me ask a flip side question that James asks as a rhetorical question and then draws a conclusion from it:

Jam 2:14 My brothers, what is the gain if anyone says he has faith, but he does not have works? Is the faith able to save him?
Jam 2:15 But if a brother or a sister is naked and may be lacking in daily food,
Jam 2:16 and any one of you say to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but does not give them the things the body needs, what gain is it?
Jam 2:17 So also faith, if it does not have works, is dead being by itself.
Jam 2:18 But someone will say, You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith out of my works.

So, now my question to add to your is this:

If you do not do works, do you really have faith? And to this point James answered with a "No" (v17). Pay very close attention to how James defines faith by giving examples of both what Godly faith IS and what it IS NOT.

And therefore by extension into the remainder of the thought in James 2:19-24, there then is another question that derives from the one above:

Jam 2:19 You believe that God is One. You do well; even the demons believe and shudder.
Jam 2:20 But are you willing to know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not our father Abraham justified by works offering up his son Isaac on the altar? Gen. 22:9
Jam 2:22 You see that faith worked with his works; and out of the works the faith was made perfected.
Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled, saying, "And Abraham believed God, and it was counted for righteousness to him;" and he was called, Friend of God. Gen. 15:6; Isa. 41:8
Jam 2:24 You see, then, that a man is justified out of works, and not out of faith only.

If your faith does not work, can you be saved? And to this point James turns to a basic observation about the demons and the difference between believing (demons) and having TRUE faith (Abraham). The answer is a "No", a workless faith cannot save because it is not true faith.

Romans says that working not is a condition of salvation.
Ro 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(KJV)

Let me refer back to my post just before your recent reply. Define what Paul means in context about "worketh not" (4:5) in connection with the "works of the Law" that is the constant theme of the first 2/3rds of Romans. You have to ask what KIND of works you are doing, what is the motive and intent of the worker? Paul establishes in the context leading up to this statement in 4:5 that the Jews sought to be justified through "works of the Law", by keeping it and therefore being OWED salvation by God. If a person does works to be OWED something by God they are sorely mistaken, that is Paul's message over and over again in Romans. A person working to be OWED something from God needs to realize what they have really earned by not perfectly executing everything God has said and are really owed by God:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If I had to state a theme for the contexts in Romans and James it would be:

Romans: If you think that doing "works of the Law" to be owed salvation by God, you're wrong.
James: If you think that faith does no work and no works are needed to be saved, you're wrong.

The difference between the type, the motive of the worker, in the works being performed is at the heart of reading and harmonizing Romans and James. Would you agree that both writers through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit are going to agree and say the same thing about the true nature of works and salvation?

Can I be baptized and turn to God and say "God, you owe me salvation because of what I have done?" Heaven forbid. But on the reverse can I say to God, "Lord save me I have faith in you!" and then expect him to do so if I do not do what he has asked? The answer to both is at the heart of Romans and James.

[JSM17]

Some time ago I wrote this outline. The reason I wrote it was because of the very ideas that Mel is holding to. I know it is long but this issue is important and deserves the space. I hope it can help people that sruggle with the ideas of faith and works. Welcome Mel it is good to have you with us.

JAMES 2:14 SERMON

INTRODUCTION:
1. The book of James has proven to be an epistle that clearly reveals the “Testing of Faith.

a. Trials, temptations (1:2-18); word of God (1:19-27); social classifications in society (2:1-13); works (2:14-26); suffering, joy, sickness, sin, compassion of erring brother (5:13-20).

b. Let us concentrate on the testing of our faith by our works.

READ JAMES 2:14:
“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?”

The N.A.S.B. adds the word “That” between can and faith.

2. What kind of faith is James speaking of?
3. What kind of works does this person not have?
4. What kind of faith can save a person?

A. TYPES OF FAITH, TYPES OF WORKS

Aa. Types of faith

Dead faith
1. The question in (v. 14) is answered in (v. 17). It is a dead faith.
2. James gives us 3 characteristics of dead faith. That is a false or worthless faith.

a. Empty confession (v. 14)
b. False compassion (vv. 15-17)
c. Shallow conviction (vv. 18, 19)


Living faith

1. The rhetorical question about the empty confession forces the position that there is a faith with works that can save. (2:14)

2. Notice James 2:22, “Who can perfect a dead faith”?

3. Back in (v. 18) James challenges us. Read Notice the word “show”

4. Wayne Jackson writer of Christian Courier wrote in April 2000 that: “Faith is not a mere attitude; rather it is a word of action”.

a. Read (Mk. 2:1-5), what did Christ see?
b. He literally saw there faith.
c. That action is called FAITH!

Ab. Type of works

WORKS (ERGON) rendered work, labor, and deeds. Employment or task

Works not of God’s will
1. James describes many types of works that do not save.

a. Lack of control of lust. (1:14-16)
b. Disobedience to God’s word (1:23-25)
c. partiality (2:1-9)
d. Lack of mercy (2:13)
e. Untamed tongue (3:1-10)

2. These are works unbeliever: there are also works of the devil, the law and Babylon.
3. These are all works that are dead.

Read Hebrews 9:14


Works of God’s will
1. James describes many types of works that do save.

a. Endurance (1:3)
b. Perseverance under trial (1:12)
c. Purity of life (1:21)
d. Obedience to scripture (1:22, 23)
e. Compassion for the needy (1:27)
f. Control of the tongue (3:2-12)
g. Humility (4:6, 10)
h. Truthfulness (4:11)
i. Patience (5:8)

2. Read John 6:26-29; Belief is a work of God.
3. Read Phil. 2:12

a. Work is “KATERGAZOMA”; A form of ERGON.

b. It is Ergon expressed with emphasis.

c. Means to work out. To achieve, strive. To accomplish.

These works that are of God will always produce a good outcome. But specifically lets look at are immediate text.


B. WORD STUDY: “JUSTIFIED”

1. Read James 2:24, what does it mean to be JUSTIFIED?
2. Vines: Justified: dikaioo, dik-ah-yo’-o


a. To deem to be right. To declare, pronounce on to be just.

b. Signifies to show to be right or righteous.

c. Root: dike, dee’-kay= justice or just, INNOCENT

3. Read Rom. 6:7, the verb dikaioo, translated “is freed” signifies to justify i.e. in legal sense.

a. Death annuls all obligations.

b.The death penalty which Christ endured holds well for the believer, through his identification with Christ in his death, Justified from sin.
It is through the burial in baptism which connects us to His death that is how we contact His cleansing blood that is how we are justified from our sin.

4. Let us not be confused about the work of the law. For the law never saved anyone, so therefore the works of the law never saves anyone.

a. Read Rom. 4:2

b. Paul is referring to the works of the law.

c. Just as we have in Gal. 3:1-6 read, Paul speaks of the works of the law. Did they receive the Spirit through those works or by hearing with faith?

d. Read Gal. 3:23-27 notice the connection with justification and baptism.


C. ILLUSTRATIONS OF WORKING FAITH
1. Abraham 2:21-23
a. Offered up Isaac.

b. Not only belief, but action; “By going is a result of “by faith”.

c. Justification by works, Faith + work = perfection.




2. Rahab 2:25

a. Notice the word “In the same way”

b. Was not a Hebrew, of the chosen people, non- covenant relationship with God?

c. Still found righteous (Justified) in Gods view.

d. Is this not a good example of how we work out our salvation as believers in faith through obedience when we are still in a non-covenant relation with god?


CONCLUSION

Read James 2:14 again

1. What kind of faith and works saves you?

2. Obedience to scripture is a work

3. On the contrary to popular belief these works are not only directed to Christians.
4. Rahab was found justified because of her faith that was working just like Abraham.

5. Works that can save us:

a. Belief John 6:26-29

b. Confession Matt. 10:32, Rom.10:10

c. Repentance Acts 26:20

d. Baptism 1Pet3:21, Mk. 16:15, 16

6. Are you justified, are you working out your salvation.

7. Faith saves; but only when it prompts to faithful and unquestioning obedience to the will of God.

8. Notice in Heb. 11 all the “by faith” quotes have action words following such as:

a. Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain. (v, 4)

b. Noah prepared the ark. (v. 7)

c. Abraham offered up Isaac. (v. 17)

d. Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau. (v. 20)

e. Moses parents hide him for three months. (v. 23)

f. Moses refused to be called the son of pharaoh’s daughter. (v. 24)

g. Left Egypt (v. 27)

h. Kept the Passover.(v. 28)

i. Passed through the Red Sea. (v. 29)

9. Does your faith have works because if not, your faith is dead!

10. Is it important, is works a salvation issue?

11. Close with reading Matt. 16:27 and Rev. 20:12, 13.


One of the works that we will be judged on will be obedience to God’s word.
This is a work that all who have a desire to be with Christ in heaven must
Complete.