There is much controversy in the church about the indwelling of the Spirit. It has divided many and has caused people to black list those who hold to certain doctrine about the Holy Spirit.
The question of the day is does the Holy Spirit dwell in the Christian literally in conjunction with the word or is it by the word only that the Holy Spirit dwells within?
Indwelling of the Holy Spirit ... Word Only?
Moderator: grand_puba
Indwelling of the Holy Spirit ... Word Only?
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...
just a few follow-up questions
Sorry for the delay. This is a good question, which may have many practical implications, depending on how far one takes this.
First, I would not disagree that the Holy Spirit dwells in us. That is clearly taught in Scripture (Romans 8:9, 11; I Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 2:22; II Timothy 1:14; possibly, John 14:17; James 4:5). The real question is, "How does He dwell in the Christian?". Is it directly or indirectly, like through the Word, as you mentioned?
May I start by asking a philosophical question? The idea of "dwelling in" something connotes some idea of "boundaries". Since the Holy Spirit is a literally omnipresent being (Psalm 139), in what way could He dwell literally in a Christian that is different from His already present dwelling in all things, like rocks, trees, animals, Christians, non-Christians, etc.? Since He is a divine Spirit being that transcends this physical realm, it seems difficult to speak of Him literally not being anywhere, because He is literally everywhere. He has no literal boundaries; therefore, He cannot literally dwell anywhere, because He is everywhere.
Since there is ample proof of the Spirit dwelling in us through the Scriptures, I believe the burden of proof and explanation lies on that of the literalist to explain and defend how the Spirit dwells in us literally and apart from the Word. If God chooses to act in a way that transcends what He has revealed, that is His business, but I am hesitant to ascribe a work or method to God that I cannot necessarily support from Scripture.
I will be happy to discuss this further, but I really need someone to define technically how the Spirit could even dwell in us, because it does not logically make sense to me. I think really need someone to describe the manifestation, benefits, symptoms, or features of this literal indwelling. Since the Bible does not use the phrase "literal indwelling", this term needs to be expounded upon by a supporter, or one more versed in the subject than I.
First, I would not disagree that the Holy Spirit dwells in us. That is clearly taught in Scripture (Romans 8:9, 11; I Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 2:22; II Timothy 1:14; possibly, John 14:17; James 4:5). The real question is, "How does He dwell in the Christian?". Is it directly or indirectly, like through the Word, as you mentioned?
May I start by asking a philosophical question? The idea of "dwelling in" something connotes some idea of "boundaries". Since the Holy Spirit is a literally omnipresent being (Psalm 139), in what way could He dwell literally in a Christian that is different from His already present dwelling in all things, like rocks, trees, animals, Christians, non-Christians, etc.? Since He is a divine Spirit being that transcends this physical realm, it seems difficult to speak of Him literally not being anywhere, because He is literally everywhere. He has no literal boundaries; therefore, He cannot literally dwell anywhere, because He is everywhere.
Since there is ample proof of the Spirit dwelling in us through the Scriptures, I believe the burden of proof and explanation lies on that of the literalist to explain and defend how the Spirit dwells in us literally and apart from the Word. If God chooses to act in a way that transcends what He has revealed, that is His business, but I am hesitant to ascribe a work or method to God that I cannot necessarily support from Scripture.
I will be happy to discuss this further, but I really need someone to define technically how the Spirit could even dwell in us, because it does not logically make sense to me. I think really need someone to describe the manifestation, benefits, symptoms, or features of this literal indwelling. Since the Bible does not use the phrase "literal indwelling", this term needs to be expounded upon by a supporter, or one more versed in the subject than I.
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)
I am certain from scripture that the H.S. never indwells apart from the word, but some have proclaimed that the HS dwells in conjunction with the word. I Guess the dividing line for many is to whether it is an actual, literal indwelling.
As you have in Gal. 5 the Spirit leads us, many say it is through His word alone that this is accomplished, but many proclaim that this leading is done through Him literally and in conjunction with His word.
When it comes to Christians, the scriptures state that the Father dwells in us and we in Him. 1John 4:14-16
The Son also dwells in us. Ephesians 3:17. I have also read that if we have not the Spirit of Christ we are none of His.
I struggle with how this actually works, yet many in the church are divided and angry about it, it has cost many to dis-fellowship with one another. There are actual debates going on between brethren which I am sure you are aware of.
Just within my area many of the what are called "Word only brethren" have refused fellowship with those who hold to a literal indwelling in conjunction with the word.
As you have in Gal. 5 the Spirit leads us, many say it is through His word alone that this is accomplished, but many proclaim that this leading is done through Him literally and in conjunction with His word.
When it comes to Christians, the scriptures state that the Father dwells in us and we in Him. 1John 4:14-16
The Son also dwells in us. Ephesians 3:17. I have also read that if we have not the Spirit of Christ we are none of His.
I struggle with how this actually works, yet many in the church are divided and angry about it, it has cost many to dis-fellowship with one another. There are actual debates going on between brethren which I am sure you are aware of.
Just within my area many of the what are called "Word only brethren" have refused fellowship with those who hold to a literal indwelling in conjunction with the word.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...
The question then is "Does the HOLY SPIRIT" dwell within the Christian only in a figurative sense? You are right the bible does not say "LITERAL INDWELLING", neither does it say specifically that Christs blood "LITERALLY cleases me", but it does say it cleases us.I will be happy to discuss this further, but I really need someone to define technically how the Spirit could even dwell in us, because it does not logically make sense to me. I think really need someone to describe the manifestation, benefits, symptoms, or features of this literal indwelling. Since the Bible does not use the phrase "literal indwelling", this term needs to be expounded upon by a supporter, or one more versed in the subject than I.
I believe it is not a matter of understanding the benefits, because one can reap that in which he does not fully understand. Many passages are clear that indeed the Spirit does indwell us. Is it through the word only? What is an anointing for those who are heirs (sons) in Galatians?
I think if anything it is most interesting to me the searching and understanding of things we have yet to discover fully or understand. It gives new and fresh life into us as we venture through territories that we have yet to understand.
I would guess that we ought to apply logic and hermenutical principles to our undertanding of verses. Especially in determining if something is literal or of figurative language.
To think that we are an actual temple (building) may seem much for many, but when you view it in the realm of the dwelling place of the Spirit it can be understood.
I do not believe that because many believe that there is a personal literal indwelling that these brethren are saying that they are now God. But this is how God identifies with His children in leading them in a none miraculous way as scripture seems to indicate. It is like the argument of some which says" God is everwhere all the time therfore is He not in us all because He is everwhere? I will go with the what the bible says ant it does say over and over that the Spirit of God dwells within His childen. So far in all the public debate by both parties have shown where the bible truly stands on this important doctrine.
We are all trying to understand the operation of God in our lives, unfortunatly many have made it a test of fellowship.
The arguments and black listing go on to this very day. What love and compassion do we see from those who disagree with a indwelling of the H.S. If it is not literal then what is it?
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...
Luke 3:15,16
15 Now as the people were in expectation, and all reasoned in their hearts about John, whether he was the Christ or not,16 John answered, saying to all,"I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
NKJV
Eph 3:16-19
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man,17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height --19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
NKJV
Gal 4:6-7
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
NKJV
Rom 8:9-11
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NKJV
Jude 20-21
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
NKJV
Phil 3:2-4
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV
1 Cor 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
NKJV
Do these passages speak of literal indwelling or representative indwelling? To say that we need to now exactly how the Spirit dwells within us, is like saying that we need to know exactly how the blood of Christ cleanses us. Just because we cannot explain it according to our logic does not mean that God does not do it. Does he literally forgive us through the cleansing or just He represenativly cleanse us?
Direct help from the Holy Spirit does not imply a miracle!
The word only position inplies no Holy Spirit in the church!
How does the word only account for the new birth in water and spirit?
Help from the Holy Spirit does not denounce the sufficiency of scripture.
The Brethren have held many debates, has anyone looked or listened to them?
This is about truth why not look into it. If we hold to a doctrine should we not exhaust our efforts to make clear why we believe it?
As a christian of only seven years I have found the biblical information clear that God does do things for His children. If God gave men the word of God only, it could not save them without God acting upon human kind.
You have things like prayer, worship, fellowship, the church all these things are not the word, alll these things are in conjunction with the written word. The Holy Spirit is said to be in heaven doing nothing, is these true? Or does He really lead us in our walk?
15 Now as the people were in expectation, and all reasoned in their hearts about John, whether he was the Christ or not,16 John answered, saying to all,"I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
NKJV
Eph 3:16-19
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man,17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height --19 to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
NKJV
Gal 4:6-7
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
NKJV
Rom 8:9-11
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NKJV
Jude 20-21
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
NKJV
Phil 3:2-4
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV
1 Cor 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
NKJV
Do these passages speak of literal indwelling or representative indwelling? To say that we need to now exactly how the Spirit dwells within us, is like saying that we need to know exactly how the blood of Christ cleanses us. Just because we cannot explain it according to our logic does not mean that God does not do it. Does he literally forgive us through the cleansing or just He represenativly cleanse us?
Direct help from the Holy Spirit does not imply a miracle!
The word only position inplies no Holy Spirit in the church!
How does the word only account for the new birth in water and spirit?
Help from the Holy Spirit does not denounce the sufficiency of scripture.
The Brethren have held many debates, has anyone looked or listened to them?
This is about truth why not look into it. If we hold to a doctrine should we not exhaust our efforts to make clear why we believe it?
As a christian of only seven years I have found the biblical information clear that God does do things for His children. If God gave men the word of God only, it could not save them without God acting upon human kind.
You have things like prayer, worship, fellowship, the church all these things are not the word, alll these things are in conjunction with the written word. The Holy Spirit is said to be in heaven doing nothing, is these true? Or does He really lead us in our walk?
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...
First of all I do not believe that there are brethren who believe that the Holy Spirit dwells apart from the word. We should take the time to try to understand someone view. We do not beleive that God is acting in a way that transends His own words.Since there is ample proof of the Spirit dwelling in us through the Scriptures, I believe the burden of proof and explanation lies on that of the literalist to explain and defend how the Spirit dwells in us literally and apart from the Word. If God chooses to act in a way that transcends what He has revealed, that is His business, but I am hesitant to ascribe a work or method to God that I cannot necessarily support from Scripture.
How about the day of Pentecost?
True or False
1. Those on Pentecost who cried out help (Acts 2:37) were convicted of their sin by the word?
2. Those on the Pentecost who received the word (Acts 2:37, 41) had the word indwelling their hearts (cf.Rom.6:17)?
3. Those on Pentecost who received the word had the abiding word within them (that is, the word entered and the word remained).
4. Those on Pentecost who came to repentance and baptism had the active word within them?
The answers to the questions are true, it is the word of God within a sinner that convicts, but since many proclaim that the Holy Spirit indwells through his word only then the word that dwells in a sinner also means that the Holy Spirit can dwell in a sinner. Sinners received the word, if H.S. dwells through His word then the sinner receives the H.S. through the word.
Does one receive the H.S. when he recieves the word?
1. The "word only" position means that the H.S. indwells a Christian only in the sense of the H.S.'s word being in that Christian?
2. But, in the sense, the H.S. can be in a sinner (Acts 2:41). The received word would constitute the received Spirit.
3. However, John 14:17 says that this sense of being in or "indwelling" is not what the indwelling of the Spirit actually is.
4.So, if the H.S. cannot be correctly siad to be "in" the word only through the word, then He cannot be correctly said to be "in" the church only through the word.
This means that the "word only" or "only through the word" position implies that the Holy Spirit is not in the church at all!
1. If the "Word only" position implies that the H.S. does not actually indwell the church at all, then it is a false doctrine.
2. The "word only" position implies that the H.S. does not actually indwell the church at all. (How does it do this? By claim that the Spirit indwells the church in the same sense whereby he dwells the world, which according to John 14:17, constitutes no dwelling at all).
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...
It seems that the study of the Holy Spirit is a dead issue. Any time you go to a sight or forum and try to discuss this issue it becomes taboo. I dare to say that we a searching for truth but only the truth that we know and not the truth that we may have yet to understand. "Let us reason" through these things without anger or intensity towards those whom God has told us we should love and if we don't then we are not truly seeking after Him.
I do not claim to know all there is to know about the Holy Spirit and how He operates, but I am willing to search for truth are you?
I do not claim to know all there is to know about the Holy Spirit and how He operates, but I am willing to search for truth are you?
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...
not a dead issue - just haven't had time
Hi Jeffrey,
I apologize for the delay in responding. Please allow me to explain, because I think it is very relevant to every person:
I would like to study this with you, but I have been overrun. As soon as I can, I would like to study this with with you. Hopefully soon. In the meantime, maybe someone else can and will jump in? If not, I look forward to studying it with you in the future. For now, I would direct you these lectures and articles:
http://www.wordsfitlyspoken.org - Scroll down and look for 5 lectures on the Holy Spirit by Bob Waldron with handouts.
http://www.wordsfitlyspoken.org/audio/turner - Robert Turner has a good lecture on this topic.
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... grace.html - This article is worth reading, as it deals with the Calvinistic influence.
I apologize for the delay in responding. Please allow me to explain, because I think it is very relevant to every person:
- I have limited time, as do you. In fact, we have the same amount of limited time.
I have more opportunities to serve the Lord than I have time to fulfill them all, as do many others. May I assume this is also true of you? Since we have a choice, we must employ some basis for choosing. Off the top of my head, I use 3 bases:- Personal obligation - We have duties to attend at home (I Timothy 5:4, "first learn to show piety at home"). We have relations and opportunities that no one else may enjoy, and we have obligations, which no one else should bear. I believe we must attend to these first. Remember the full-time evangelist, who kept preaching "for the Lord", at the expense of his marriage? The Lord has commanded us to be good husbands and fathers (I Timothy 5:8; Ephesians 6:4; Colossians 3:21). However, the Lord did not command us to be full-time preachers, neither are we commanded to preach the gospel to any specific individual or protect any specific issue. Although I feel a strong obligation based on Scripture to teach and defend Scripture, my obligation as a father and husband comes first, because of the Scriptures' direction. This is one example of this principle in application.
- Hope of Return on Investment - As stewards of something precious (time), we have to choose where we will invest these resources, as we must give an account for them (Matthew 24:45-25:30; I Corinthians 4:2). Therefore, I take the advice of our Master, and try not to squander my resources (Matthew 7:6). I invest them where they will do the most good. I spend time with people who demonstrate the most open-mindedness. (BTW, this does not apply here. I am just including it for completeness. )
- Eternal Consequences - Although we should not assume the role of eternal Judge, I think it necessary we consider the possible consequence of our choices. If you had the chance of discussing salvation and conversion with someone, who might not be saved, or discussing the nature of heaven with a good brother, who was already converted and saved, best you could determine, with whom would you spend your time, assuming you could not do both (James 5:19-20)?
- Burden of words - I also am studying this issue, and although I have an opinion, but I would not consider it tested and proven. Neither have I had time to articulate it to my satisfaction. Although this forum is a fine proving ground to test our thoughts (Provers 27:17), I am reluctant to toss a few ill-marinated thoughts, which may prove unpalatable and unhealthy, especially considering I may not have time to set it right (see point #1). We must be careful with our words, especially in a public forum, because we will judged by them and they may have profound impact on others (Matthew 12:36-37; James 3:1).
I would like to study this with you, but I have been overrun. As soon as I can, I would like to study this with with you. Hopefully soon. In the meantime, maybe someone else can and will jump in? If not, I look forward to studying it with you in the future. For now, I would direct you these lectures and articles:
http://www.wordsfitlyspoken.org - Scroll down and look for 5 lectures on the Holy Spirit by Bob Waldron with handouts.
http://www.wordsfitlyspoken.org/audio/turner - Robert Turner has a good lecture on this topic.
http://www.insearchoftruth.org/articles ... grace.html - This article is worth reading, as it deals with the Calvinistic influence.
May God help us to love truth sincerely and supremely (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)
I have listened to Brother Waldron's lessons. I enjoyed them. I look forward to this discussion in the future.
...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power...
Holy Spirit issue
Here are a few questions that I have wondered about in connection to the Holy Spirit.
How does the Spirit dwell within the church today?
What is the gift of the Holy Spirit in acts 2:38?
If we have not received the Spirit today are we orphaned?
Does a dwelling of the Spirit within the christian today demand the idea of miraculous manifestation?
Is there a difference between the giving of the Holy Spirit and the power that came with Him?
What does it mean in John 3:34 when John states that "He" that is Christ gives the Holy Spirit without measure?
When Luke said that those who obey God are given the Holy Spirit was that limited to just a few people of the first century?
When John proclaimed that one greater than himself would come baptizing with the Holy Spirit and Fire, did he limit that function to a few. I have always understood that there are two places that people with fall under either fire, which is not good, or be in the other which seems to say that the others would receive the Holy Spirit. WHy would John tell them this if only a few would receive the Holy Spirit?
Rom 8:9-11
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NKJV
I understand there are few who would deny that the scripture teaches an indwelling, I guess the hard part is understanding how and why.
1 Cor 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
NKJV
The Christian is the temple in which the Holy Spirit dwells, how does this work, I do not know exactly but the scriture says that He does.
1 Cor 6:18-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
NKJV
I see this verse speaking of the idea contrasted to the man that joins himself to a harlot, that they become one. The one who joins himself to the Lord becomes one spirit with him (17). I again do not know exactly how this works but the scriptures teach that it is so.
How does one receive the promise of the Spirit through faith according to Galatians 3:14?
How does God send forth the Spirit into our hearts crying Abba!Father!?
1 Thessalonians 4:8 states that God gives His Holy Spirit to those who are saved.
I just thought that I would throw out there a few ideas, I do not expect answers to all of them I just would like to discuss the idea with those who are interested as I am.
How does the Spirit dwell within the church today?
What is the gift of the Holy Spirit in acts 2:38?
If we have not received the Spirit today are we orphaned?
Does a dwelling of the Spirit within the christian today demand the idea of miraculous manifestation?
Is there a difference between the giving of the Holy Spirit and the power that came with Him?
What does it mean in John 3:34 when John states that "He" that is Christ gives the Holy Spirit without measure?
When Luke said that those who obey God are given the Holy Spirit was that limited to just a few people of the first century?
When John proclaimed that one greater than himself would come baptizing with the Holy Spirit and Fire, did he limit that function to a few. I have always understood that there are two places that people with fall under either fire, which is not good, or be in the other which seems to say that the others would receive the Holy Spirit. WHy would John tell them this if only a few would receive the Holy Spirit?
Rom 8:9-11
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
NKJV
I understand there are few who would deny that the scripture teaches an indwelling, I guess the hard part is understanding how and why.
1 Cor 3:16-17
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
NKJV
The Christian is the temple in which the Holy Spirit dwells, how does this work, I do not know exactly but the scriture says that He does.
1 Cor 6:18-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
NKJV
I see this verse speaking of the idea contrasted to the man that joins himself to a harlot, that they become one. The one who joins himself to the Lord becomes one spirit with him (17). I again do not know exactly how this works but the scriptures teach that it is so.
How does one receive the promise of the Spirit through faith according to Galatians 3:14?
How does God send forth the Spirit into our hearts crying Abba!Father!?
1 Thessalonians 4:8 states that God gives His Holy Spirit to those who are saved.
I just thought that I would throw out there a few ideas, I do not expect answers to all of them I just would like to discuss the idea with those who are interested as I am.